Sonos and whole-house audio

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by P1et

I talked to my installed, and he doesn't do them either. They look nice, but it's just another point of failure. So I think I'll go the crimping/splicing route and shrink tubing the connections.

Any good suggestions for "bulk" speaker wire? I have AudioQuest for my B&W speakers, but am not going to spend hundreds of dollars in extending what is probably bottom-of-the-barrel speaker wire.

I use Cardas Crosslink cabling for the front speaker cables and a good chunk of the interconnects (both balanced and unbalanced). For the rear surrounds, I used bulk cabling from Analysis Plus. I used the Blue bulk cable but looking on their website, it looks like they've replaced it with something else. No issues with the cabling and it's very well constructed. Here's a link to their bulk cabling offerings:

http://www.analysis-plus.com/home-audio/#bulk

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by P1et

Appreciate the help here. Let me explain what I'm dealing with. Remember, we still have ten "ceiling" speakers in total that I'm trying to make work. And yes, this was probably all done when the house was being built, hence the rap Radio Shack speakers that are in there now.

Everything is wired to all ten speakers, and they work, since I rigged them all carefully one by one to my receiver by putting on temporary splices. Not clean, but at least now I know. All cables for those ten speakers come out to a central location, as per the photo I posted above. That's in my TV room/home theater room. There, I have a 3.1 system now (all B&W, powered by a Sony ES receiver). Connecting the two in-ceiling speakers in that room will make it 5.1.

Formal dining room has two in-ceiling speakers
Master bath has two in-ceiling speakers
My deck has two outdoor speakers
Master bedroom has two in-ceiling speakers

I don't need audiophile quality such as what you're describing as having in your house.

OK so tell me if this is right. You have the following speakers installed in the ceiling throughout the house:

2 in dining room
2 in master bath
2 in bedroom
2 in living room
2 in deck (not ceiling but whatever)

They are all home run to that single location? You then have freestanding speakers B&W that you want to use those 3 + sub + the 2 living room ceiling speakers for a theater?

Once we figure that out I can start giving you some opinions. BTW you shouldn't run all that gear all at once plugged in with splices. I don't understand all the electrical engineering stuff (my buddy takes care of that for me) but I think you could melt your receiver.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Most definitely. If I were to do the room again, I may do some more things to help deaden the room some more. I didn't have the builder finish the basement so I carved out a dedicated sound room from the available space. While I haven't been anal about spacing the cabling and such, I did some other things which have been equally OCD. I had the electrician put in a 100A subpanel. From there I have 3 20A dedicated power feeds into the room. The lights and regular wall power outlets are on different 15A circuits. Two of the three 20A circuits have Equitech balanced power transformers hard wired next to the sub panel. One feed is dedicated for the two Velodyne subs and the other feed is dedicated to the Bryston 6B-ST amp. The remaining 20A circuit has a rack form factor Equitech 20A balanced power transformer which I plug everything else in to.

Other things in the room are 5/8" drywall with all walls and ceilings filled in with insulation and solid core doors.

Very pleased with the final acoustical results.

Sounds pretty nice! We have officially reached the limits of my technical understanding though, my buddy who takes care of my gear went to Penn with me and has an electrical engineering degree and does this stuff all professionally. I outsource worrying about the "geek speak" side of things and tell him what I want and how I want it to work.

I would definitely check out GIK they have some nice not too expensive options and just released some new "designer series" stuff that's prettier. PM me your email address I will send you some pics. You can also just get the supplies and make panels with whatever fabric you want. I have a combo of premade stuff and DIY.

[P1]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

OK so tell me if this is right. You have the following speakers installed in the ceiling throughout the house:

2 in dining room
2 in master bath
2 in bedroom
2 in living room
2 in deck (not ceiling but whatever)

They are all home run to that single location? You then have freestanding speakers B&W that you want to use those 3 + sub + the 2 living room ceiling speakers for a theater?

Once we figure that out I can start giving you some opinions. BTW you shouldn't run all that gear all at once plugged in with splices. I don't understand all the electrical engineering stuff (my buddy takes care of that for me) but I think you could melt your receiver.

You are 100% spot on...

The Sony STR-DA5300ES can power the 5.1 system. But I'd like to use my Sonos Connect with a separate amp to power the eight in ceiling speakers. I need suggestions on which amp.

A 9.1 receiver?
An 8 channel amp?
Two 4 channel amps?

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by P1et

You are 100% spot on...

The Sony STR-DA5300ES can power the 5.1 system. But I'd like to use my Sonos Connect with a separate amp to power the eight in ceiling speakers. I need suggestions on which amp.

A 9.1 receiver?
An 8 channel amp?
Two 4 channel amps?

OK this makes much more sense and is nowhere near what I thought you were talking about when we started. But as usual more answers lead to more questions....

What do you actually want to be able to do with all of this stuff? Do you want to be able to play music in the theater room just like everyplace else? And how idiot proof / easy to use do you want all of this to be? Do you want to be able to easily play music in room 1,2,3 and not in 4,5 that sort of thing?

Do you want to be able to listen to different music in different rooms? Is that Sony receiver 2 zone?

Reason I ask is you could possibly get away with what you have and a Niles speaker switch if you wanted to add some in wall volume controls. More flexibility you want = more gear you need to add.

BTW for bathroom and outside don't go crazy on speakers both horrible sound environments. Boston makes some nice outdoor speakers so does Bose. Bathroom honestly doesn't matter much it's all going to sound like crap you just want noise in there. Check with a pro though you may need to get something marine rated for a moist environment or something. I know Sonance makes marine stuff not sure on others.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by P1et

You are 100% spot on...

The Sony STR-DA5300ES can power the 5.1 system. But I'd like to use my Sonos Connect with a separate amp to power the eight in ceiling speakers. I need suggestions on which amp.

A 9.1 receiver?
An 8 channel amp?
Two 4 channel amps?

You'll need to have discrete channels. I don't think it really matters at this point. I think cost and "rack" space will dictate your choices. I used to be heavy into researching this stuff a few years ago when I was thinking about whole house audio. You also have to decide how much power you want to feed these speakers (how loud you're going to listen) along with if you want the system to be fully modular. I know some amps are designed as an amp within an amp type configuration. My Bryston 6B-ST is that way. Even though it's a 3 channel amp, it's really 3 individual amps housed in the same chassis only sharing a single power beefy power supply. Other amps allow you to install amp modules to allow you to grow out. I went the other route with dedicated systems. I have a 2 channel system which is moth balled at the moment due to my 2 year old running around.

Not sure what your budget is, but here is an Internet only outfit that has garnered a decent following. Emotiva

http://emotiva.com/products/emotiva/amplifiers-0

I have two of their XPA-2 amps. One is driving the rear surrounds in my dedicated sound room and the other is part of my 2 channel system. The XPA-2 is no joke of an amp. Very beefy unit that weighs in at about 80lbs.

[BEM-S4]

I guess one other question do you want to be able to control all of this via phone or tablet? Sonos where you started is super easy for this other solutions some yes some no.

Hell for the bathroom you could get away with a single Play 1 for $200 and call it a day truth be told.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

OK so tell me if this is right. You have the following speakers installed in the ceiling throughout the house:

2 in dining room
2 in master bath
2 in bedroom
2 in living room
2 in deck (not ceiling but whatever)

They are all home run to that single location? You then have freestanding speakers B&W that you want to use those 3 + sub + the 2 living room ceiling speakers for a theater?

Once we figure that out I can start giving you some opinions. BTW you shouldn't run all that gear all at once plugged in with splices. I don't understand all the electrical engineering stuff (my buddy takes care of that for me) but I think you could melt your receiver.

I'm pretty sure he's going to have discrete amp channels per speaker. The splicing he's talking about is to add in additional speaker cabling to the already installed in wall speaker wiring that's too short to reach an amp. The splice if done right shouldn't add too much impedence to the cabling.

But what I'm thinking you have pictured is to have all the speakers running off the same amp output. That of course is a no no if it's wired in what's called parallel. Electrical 101. Wiring loads in parallel reduces the impedence of the overall load. With all things being equal, this requires a requisite increase in the amount of current needed to drive the load. If you look at amp specs, you'll see them listed for 8 Ohms and 4 Ohms typically. Even though the impedence of the system is dropped in half, you would think most amps would be able to double their power output...say 100W at 8 Ohms to 200W at 4 Ohms. This isn't the case as the current demand on the amplifier causes the power output to be less than double. You'll see typically a rating of maybe 125W into 4 Ohms up to 150W into 4 Ohms. I'm just making general numbers here. But you get the idea.

A class A amp doesn't have this limitation and can double its output with each halving of the impedence load. So a class A amp running at 100W into 8 Ohms will do 200W into 4, 400W into 2 Ohms, and gasp....800W into 1 Ohm. These are RMS numbers and not dynamic peak power. This is why class A amps are more expensive than other amp types like AB, H, etc. An example of class A amps are from Classe Audio and Krell.

Too Long Did Not Read is having speakers wired in parallel to an amp can be very detrimental as the current demands goes up which can drive the amp into protection mode at best and at worst break something in the amp. Those speaker switch panels you see at various audio shops and home installations have internal resisters to balance out the loading presented to the amp.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

I'm pretty sure he's going to have discrete amp channels per speaker. The splicing he's talking about is to add in additional speaker cabling to the already installed in wall speaker wiring that's too short to reach an amp. The splice if done right shouldn't add too much impedence to the cabling.

But what I'm thinking you have pictured is to have all the speakers running off the same amp output. That of course is a no no if it's wired in what's called parallel. Electrical 101. Wiring loads in parallel reduces the impedence of the overall load. With all things being equal, this requires a requisite increase in the amount of current needed to drive the load. If you look at amp specs, you'll see them listed for 8 Ohms and 4 Ohms typically. Even though the impedence of the system is dropped in half, you would think most amps would be able to double their power output...say 100W at 8 Ohms to 200W at 4 Ohms. This isn't the case as the current demand on the amplifier causes the power output to be less than double. You'll see typically a rating of maybe 125W into 4 Ohms up to 150W into 4 Ohms. I'm just making general numbers here. But you get the idea.

A class A amp doesn't have this limitation and can double its output with each halving of the impedence load. So a class A amp running at 100W into 8 Ohms will do 200W into 4, 400W into 2 Ohms, and gasp....800W into 1 Ohm. These are RMS numbers and not dynamic peak power. This is why class A amps are more expensive than other amp types like AB, H, etc. An example of class A amps are from Classe Audio and Krell.

Too Long Did Not Read is having speakers wired in parallel to an amp can be very detrimental as the current demands goes up which can drive the amp into protection mode at best and at worst break something in the amp. Those speaker switch panels you see at various audio shops and home installations have internal resisters to balance out the loading presented to the amp.

Ok I read that as hooked it all up temporarily to test it out without a Niles splitter or something installed inline. Agree with everything you said though.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Sounds pretty nice! We have officially reached the limits of my technical understanding though, my buddy who takes care of my gear went to Penn with me and has an electrical engineering degree and does this stuff all professionally. I outsource worrying about the "geek speak" side of things and tell him what I want and how I want it to work.

I would definitely check out GIK they have some nice not too expensive options and just released some new "designer series" stuff that's prettier. PM me your email address I will send you some pics. You can also just get the supplies and make panels with whatever fabric you want. I have a combo of premade stuff and DIY.

Sure thing.

I already have panels through out the front and side walls of my room...also the ceiling too. I don't have carpeting in this room which seems counter intuitive to many people. I consulted a company out of Richmond, VA called Acoustical Solutions. In fact, they have my room featured on their website. The owner said he was concerned about making the room too dead as that's not what you want for musical reproduction. He advised the use of acoustical panels along with rugs and other things to do spot treatment of any sound issues. I'm glad I followed his advise as he has been spot on. I have no desire to change anything in my system...even though B&W has come out with the Nautilus S series and now the D (diamond) series even though I have the original Nautilus speakers.

[m630]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

OK so tell me if this is right. You have the following speakers installed in the ceiling throughout the house:

2 in dining room
2 in master bath
2 in bedroom
2 in living room
2 in deck (not ceiling but whatever)

They are all home run to that single location? You then have freestanding speakers B&W that you want to use those 3 + sub + the 2 living room ceiling speakers for a theater?

Once we figure that out I can start giving you some opinions. BTW you shouldn't run all that gear all at once plugged in with splices. I don't understand all the electrical engineering stuff (my buddy takes care of that for me) but I think you could melt your receiver.

Originally Posted by P1et

You are 100% spot on...

The Sony STR-DA5300ES can power the 5.1 system. But I'd like to use my Sonos Connect with a separate amp to power the eight in ceiling speakers. I need suggestions on which amp.

A 9.1 receiver?
An 8 channel amp?
Two 4 channel amps?

Hi,

Some points of consideration as I have similar setup but have used diff solutions you may want to consider. I have a 7.1 for my home theater and then use sonos for everything else. I wouldn't suggest 8 speakers on a sonos connect as the power would not be there. What you want to also consider is how you are going to use the system,meaning do u want discreet control by room which is what I did. I have 7 sonos zones for separate controls that make things very easy. For outside I use a sonos attached to an Episode amp to drive 4 outdoor speakers, and use a niles controller to split them and allow control of the two pairs separately.

[P1]

Let me take a sec and digest all of the above. In the meantime, I just bought two B&W CCM663 to see if I like them.

[BEM-S4]

Just make sure your ceiling speaker "rears" are in the right spot or everything will get muddled if too close to front. If your joists are running perpendicular to your TV wall you can move them back very easily if needed. Parallel your ceiling is in for a world of hurt.

[P1]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Just make sure your ceiling speaker "rears" are in the right spot or everything will get muddled if too close to front. If your joists are running perpendicular to your TV wall you can move them back very easily if needed. Parallel your ceiling is in for a world of hurt.

They are behind the couch, so pretty far back...

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by P1et

They are behind the couch, so pretty far back...

Not worth moving then - even if they're a little off not going to make a huge difference given your stated goals.

Snap AV makes some decent in wall speakers for your other rooms. Think eclipse is the brand they sell under. While you're poking around give those a look.

[wrickem]

Reading this thread made my head spin. I love music but I am not a true audiophile that can hear slight variations in pitch. I also live in a small town with houses that are close together so you really can't blast your music too loud. Last year I decided to ditch all my fussy components, wires, remotes and tweaking for 1 or 2 Sonos 1,3 or 5 in each room, each bathroom and covered porch, 5:1's for our 2 bigger TV sets and now have really easy to use decent music throughout the house without a hassle and I can't be happier.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by wrickem

Reading this thread made my head spin. I love music but I am not a true audiophile that can hear slight variations in pitch. I also live in a small town with houses that are close together so you really can't blast your music too loud. Last year I decided to ditch all my fussy components, wires, remotes and tweaking for 1 or 2 Sonos 1,3 or 5 in each room, each bathroom and covered porch, 5:1's for our 2 bigger TV sets and now have really easy to use decent music throughout the house without a hassle and I can't be happier.

That's probably the best / easiest solution for most. Or new construction where you can home run everything and have one rack. In between when you're trying to get better speakers and minimize ripping walls open is where it gets complicated and costly. That and making everything from speakers to wires to equipment invisible hidden away someplace.

[wrickem]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

That's probably the best / easiest solution for most. Or new construction where you can home run everything and have one rack. In between when you're trying to get better speakers and minimize ripping walls open is where it gets complicated and costly. That and making everything from speakers to wires to equipment invisible hidden away someplace.

Maybe not the best for a true audiophile or somebody who loves to play with settings but it sure is easy and sounds pretty good. I've got an old house (1864), so wires are a PITA but even on new construction I think today's technology becomes tomorrow's dinosaurs (like those Nutone intercoms from the 1900s.

[P1]

Originally Posted by wrickem

Reading this thread made my head spin. I love music but I am not a true audiophile that can hear slight variations in pitch. I also live in a small town with houses that are close together so you really can't blast your music too loud. Last year I decided to ditch all my fussy components, wires, remotes and tweaking for 1 or 2 Sonos 1,3 or 5 in each room, each bathroom and covered porch, 5:1's for our 2 bigger TV sets and now have really easy to use decent music throughout the house without a hassle and I can't be happier.

I have four Play:1s strews about my house and I think they actually do a great job. So yes, I agree with you! I was not impressed with the Play:3, but the Play:5 is fantastic.

[P1]

Originally Posted by m630

Hi,

Some points of consideration as I have similar setup but have used diff solutions you may want to consider. I have a 7.1 for my home theater and then use sonos for everything else. I wouldn't suggest 8 speakers on a sonos connect as the power would not be there. What you want to also consider is how you are going to use the system,meaning do u want discreet control by room which is what I did. I have 7 sonos zones for separate controls that make things very easy. For outside I use a sonos attached to an Episode amp to drive 4 outdoor speakers, and use a niles controller to split them and allow control of the two pairs separately.

You mean you cannot hook up 8 speakers to a Sonos AMP? Because you can connect the Sonos Connect to an eight-channel amp and power eight speakers.

[m630]

Originally Posted by P1et

You mean you cannot hook up 8 speakers to a Sonos AMP? Because you can connect the Sonos Connect to an eight-channel amp and power eight speakers.

I mean that the power is not there to drive 8 speakers effectively from a sonos connect amp, but yes if you are using the sonos module connected to a power amp, that works,,though you will only have one input source for all speakers. I have mine set up so that each room can have its own sound/source or all can be used to play the same source. So if you have a party, maybe you have the game on and want to hear it in a few zones, you can do that,then up the kitchen or dining areas, you can play other music, the in bathroom maybe something different, and then outside you may choose somethings different still. I enjoy the flexibility and always have sound on throughout the house

[P1]

Originally Posted by m630

I mean that the power is not there to drive 8 speakers effectively from a sonos connect amp, but yes if you are using the sonos module connected to a power amp, that works,,though you will only have one input source for all speakers. I have mine set up so that each room can have its own sound/source or all can be used to play the same source. So if you have a party, maybe you have the game on and want to hear it in a few zones, you can do that,then up the kitchen or dining areas, you can play other music, the in bathroom maybe something different, and then outside you may choose somethings different still. I enjoy the flexibility and always have sound on throughout the house

Gotcha. For me, three zones (or three Connects) would be all I need: upstairs, downstairs and outside.