Roof hydraulics leak

[Paolo B]

Hi Robi, thanks again. I will be purchasing everything from Klaus including the o-rings if he has them otherwise I will look on-line for them. Regarding the harness, it sounds like they gave me all the spare parts. Let me know if there are any components missing because if so, I'd like to ask for them since I paid for them. One last question, regarding the repair instructions you sent me. They seem to be different than what is posted on TIS. Are your instructions a simpler way to remove/install the cylinders or just a different way. I shared the TIS instructions with my mechanic and he feels comfortable doing the repair but if your way is easier, we might do it that way. Let me know your thoughts on this. Thanks again. I won't be coming to visit you this year with my Z4 but might next year if I take it over to Europe for 3 months.
Paolo

[Paolo B]

Robi, one more thing. The part number BMW quoted me for the right side cylinder is 54377223338. Under RealOEM this is listed as the hydraulic cylinder linkage module, right and 54377223337 is the left side. Please confirm that these are the two parts I need to order. Thanks again. Paolo

[RobbiZ4]

Ciao Paolo, come stai?

Well, I mostly take this catalogue:
http://www.bmw-etk.info/parts-catalo...402/54/54_0402
On pos. 04 you will find the pair of the roof shell with different part numbers (54377223333 / 54377223334) than yours.

Until now I did not replace the hydraulic cylinders in the roof shell separately. I will have a look at it next Saturday, when I open the roof to replace the harness. In general, NewTIS is not complete, but it's exact in it's descriptions.

Regarding the 2nd part of your harness:
I'm not sure how they separated the left from the rigth part. You already mentioned that even this new part with the 45° tape has been cutted.

I would go back to your dealer, take your gun and ask him, why in the hell he's cut this brand new part he charged to your for more than 1.000 bucks!!

He's the one to check what has been damaged!

[Paolo B]

Hallo Robi, sehr gut, danke, und dir? Thanks so much for the pictures and additional information. If you determine that taking off he whole roof panel to remove and install the two cylinders is easier than following the new TIS instructions, please let me know otherwise we might just follow those instructions as they seem pretty clear. I will be contacting Top Hydraulics to purchase two cylinders and will install them when I return from Italy as I'm going next week for 10 days. I will be discussing the harness issue with the dealership and will let you know what they say. Thanks for all your help. Paolo

[RobbiZ4]

Originally Posted by Paolo B

Hallo Robbi, sehr gut, danke, und dir?

Well, that's perfect!

Originally Posted by Paolo B

If you determine that taking off he whole roof panel to remove and install the two cylinders is easier than following the new TIS instructions, please let me know...

Will do and come back to you. Have a nice trip to Italy.
CU
Robert

[Paolo B]

Hi Robbi, well, I'm back from Italy and replaced the two salmon relay switches. I also ordered the right side roof cylinder from Top Hydraulics. I just ordered the one for now to see if that is indeed the problem. If the issue is resolved after we install it, I will order the left side and have that one installed as well. If not, I will consider having the hydraulic unit rebuilt by Top Hydraulics. The part came in however it looks slightly different than the one currently on my car. The one that Top Hydraulics sent me seems to have different ends than the one on my car. Specifically, the new one has fork-type end where as the one currently on my car has ball-joint type ends. I've attached a picture of the one that I just received. Please have a look and let me know if this is the correct part. My mechanic is tied up until the week after next so we will likely try to install it then. Also, please let me know if the cylinder can be installed without removing the roof panel. New TIS seems instructions seem to indicate that you can however I may need to maneuver the roof in a position that allows us access.

[Paolo B]

Here's a picture of the cylinder currently on my car. As you can see, the end looks different. Please let me know what you think. Thanks. Paolo

[RobbiZ4]

Hi Paolo,
Welcome back!

You are correct, the wrong part has been sent to you.
The one sent to you is from the compartment ("Koppelverschluss") on the right side:

Well, I've never replace this cylinder. As NewTIS in general is rather exact, but not very detailled, you should give it a try without removing the roof shell.
Don't forget to replace the old o-rings by new ones!! (3,4 x 1,00 mm NBR70 or 3,3 x 1,00 mm NBR70)

When removeing the roof shell, you have to heaten the 6 old srews before opening. And you have to replace them by a new set of screws originally from BMW.

[Paolo B]

Hi Robbi, Ok thanks for confirming what I thought. I'll get in touch with Klaus and attempt to exchange it for the correct one. I think we'll try to install it without removing the roof shell. It looks like a tight fit however I think if we maneuver the roof to the right position, we should be able to slip it out. I assume when we shut off the pressure we should be able to maneuver the roof easily. Please advise if this is not the case. Thank you again for your help. Paolo

[RobbiZ4]

To find the best position for mounting, you have to look at the exact length of the new relaxed(?) hydraulic cylinder.
The one in the roof will be compressed in most positions of the roof shell and you have to try a bit to find the best position.
Good luck :-)

[Paolo B]

Yes, thank you. By the way, Klaus did send me new o-rings so we will install them when we get the correct cylinder. Thanks for your help and I'll let you know how it all turns out.

[Paolo B]

Hi Robbi, well, we installed the rebuilt cylinder from Top Hydraulics tonight. The installation went smoothly and was relatively easy. However, the problem persists. We only replaced the right side as that seems to be the side that is sticking and is also the side that the BMW dealership suspected might be faulty. So, I guess now I will try having the hydraulic unit rebuilt by Top Hydraulics. I'm not sure what else to do. The BMW dealership did advise me to first change the hydraulic unit as they believed the unit was starting to fail. Please let me know what you think. Thanks. Paolo

[RobbiZ4]

Hi Paolo,

well, that's a pity. The best way to identify the source of your problem is to exchange the hydraulic pump with a working unit from another E89.

Alternatively, you could try to arrange a deal with Klaus to test with a refurbished pump for a small compensation. If the refurbished one solves your problem, you pay the complete bill. If not, you buy another hydraulic cylinder for the left side.

Another idea:
switch the hydraulic lines between the left and the right cylinder. As both cylinders are working completely in parallel, that will work.

• If your problem is based on the hydraulic unit, your roof should behave exactly in the opposite way, hanging to the left.
• If not, there should be another issue either with the old, not replaced part of the loom on the left or the left hydraulic cylinder in the roof shell

Your video of the current issue:

Hydraulic hose numbers:
roof cylinder left front no. 21
roof cylinder left rear no. 22

roof cylinder right front no. 23
roof cylinder right rear no. 24


Swap the hoses at the pump and use new o-rings 3,3x1,00 mm NBR70:
swap 21 with 23
swap 22 with 24

For this test you can place the pump on top of the battery as the replaced hoses require a turned position of the hydraulic pump.

Thinking about your initial post:

Originally Posted by Paolo B

[..]am starting to believe the issue might be a faulty or sticky solenoid valve [...]

The same way like swapping the hoses, you could swap the solenoids as well:

1. physically swap solenoid no. 1 => no.2, 2=>3, 3=>1 and have a look at the roof's movement
   Important: swap the plugs as well (plug no.2 to be plugged on the swapped 1st solenoid...)
2. swap solenoid 2=>3, 3=>1, 1 => 2 and have another look at the roof's movement

May be swapping the solenoids could be your first test, as it's easier to swap.

In between we identified an issue with a solenoid in a German car as well, but initiated by a faulty CTM modul.

[Paolo B]

Hi Robbi, thanks for your suggestions, these are very helpful. Regarding the solenoids, I did purchase a used solenoid from Roof Motors.UK in July. Prior to ordering the cylinder, I did swap each of the existing solenoids with the one from Roof Motors, one at a time, on all three and there was no difference, exact same problem. I am not familiar with the mechanics of a hydraulic pump but if the solenoids are all working fine, could there be something else inside the pump that could be failing? I like your idea of speaking to Klaus about the possibility of using one of his units, for a fee, and I might liaise with him to see if that is possible. Should I still try swapping the lines? I will be going out of town for the next week so might not be able to try anything further until I get back on the weekend of September 28th.

[RobbiZ4]

Well, the hydraulic pump is a combination of an electrical motor and a hydro unit.
The hydro unit itself has about a dozen of valves, internal and external, as well as lots of filters. The 3 solenoids are the external parts, the rest can be found inside the hydro block. And yes, also the internal parts can fail. In the past I've replaced about 3 pumps with internal problems.

In the following the diagram of the hydro unit.
The 3 solenoids are marked with 7,8,9,
A and D are the two screws on top of the unit,
3/4 the hydraulic cylinder in the roof,
1/2 are the main rams,
5/6 the rams of the comp. lid:



As you can swap the hydraulic hoses by yourself, give it a try. With a different roof behaviour to the current one, you can be sure that there is an internal fault in the hydro unit.

[Paolo B]

Hi Robbi, thanks again for the excellent information. This is helpful and now I understand that it could be internal valves. I will try swapping the lines when I return and see what happens. I'll let you know and then I can plan further from there.

[Paolo B]

Robbi, this morning we switched the lines as you suggested and nothing changed. So, we assume that the problem is not with the unit. Next, we loosened the two pressure screws and we manually operated the roof panel back and forth several times. We noticed that there is definitely sticking or jamming on the right side at a couple of points through the travel. We examined all moving parts but do not see any parts bent or damaged in any way. So, we heavily lubricated every moving part we could see on the right side and then operated the roof manually and then with full power several times (maybe 20 times). The problem seems to have significantly improved. There seems to be a bit of sticking however it seems to now push through the sticking with just some minor interruption. As mentioned before, the problem is intermittent in that it will operate completely fine 2 or 3 times in a row and then will seem to stick a couple of times. The left side operates smoothly every time. We were wondering if a different type of grease/lubricant might be better. For example, maybe a heavier lubricant might fully eliminate the problem. My mechanic thinks we have ruled out hydraulic problems and the problem seems to be mechanical. Please let me know if you have any suggestions. Also, I don't have a lot of experience on these forums so if you prefer I private message you, please let me know how to do that and we can take the conversation off line. Thanks again for your help.

[RobbiZ4]

Originally Posted by Paolo B

Robbi, this morning we switched the lines as you suggested and nothing changed. So, we assume that the problem is not with the unit.

Hi, unfortunately I missed this update.

Well done, the successful line switching prevents you from buying a new or refurbished hydraulic pump.

Most of the Z4 I've examined in the past had very little until not visible grease at the hinges. My conclusion is, that too much grease should be avoided.

At least, there are only 4 hinges in the parallelogram of the roof shell. With opened pressure screws (max.1 - 1.5 turns) the roof shell should be movable by 2 persons in parallel without any sticking. I will give it a try on my car asap.

In addition, I will get checked if the bolts of the hinges can be opened and cleaned by yourself...

[Paolo B]

Hi Robbi, yes, I believe we have eliminated that the problem is in any way related to hydraulics. When we opened the system by loosening the two screws by 1 turn, we were able to move the roof shell freely. The left side moved very easily however there seemed to be one spot, early in the travel when opening the roof, on the right side where there seemed to be a "hard" stop. The stop was very distinctive. With some pressure, we could move the roof shell past the "sticking" point. We removed the front roof headliner and examined the mechanism closely however could not see any obstruction or area where the roof was being blocked. We ran out of time but will be having a closer look as soon as my mechanic has time again. It almost feels like a bolt or some other part of the mechanism is blocking the travel. I'm starting to wonder if the BMW dealership misaligned something when they replaced the loom last year as the problem started right after they made the repairs. Once you've had a chance to examine the manual travel on your car, let me know if you have any suggestions or ideas as to what might be out of alignment. I will be putting the car away for the winter at the end of October so if we don't figure this out before then, I might have to resume our examination next spring. Let me know if you have an email address where I can message you privately if you prefer. Thanks again for your assistance.

[RobbiZ4]

Originally Posted by Paolo B

Hi Robbi, yes, I believe we have eliminated that the problem is in any way related to hydraulics. When we opened the system by loosening the two screws by 1 turn, we were able to move the roof shell freely. The left side moved very easily however there seemed to be one spot, early in the travel when opening the roof, on the right side where there seemed to be a "hard" stop. The stop was very distinctive. With some pressure, we could move the roof shell past the "sticking" point. We removed the front roof headliner and examined the mechanism closely however could not see any obstruction or area where the roof was being blocked. We ran out of time but will be having a closer look as soon as my mechanic has time again. It almost feels like a bolt or some other part of the mechanism is blocking the travel. I'm starting to wonder if the BMW dealership misaligned something when they replaced the loom last year as the problem started right after they made the repairs. Once you've had a chance to examine the manual travel on your car, let me know if you have any suggestions or ideas as to what might be out of alignment. I will be putting the car away for the winter at the end of October so if we don't figure this out before then, I might have to resume our examination next spring. Let me know if you have an email address where I can message you privately if you prefer. Thanks again for your assistance.

Well, thinking about any possible misalignment that could be done by the dealer, it might be one or many misplaced zip ties.

To replace the loom, not any screw or mechanical part has to be unmounted except the roof shell itself. When I replace the loom, I place each zip tie exactly at the same position and(!) the same orientation as the original one. No experiments or creative solutions should be done in the roof.

Each zip tie is placed symmetrically on both sides, so you can try to compare every visible zip. That is more complicated below the roof shell, I know. And in addition there are 2 zips at the edge of the front shell, hardly visible.

But give it a try and compare those zips in the area of the hydraulic cylinder below the roof shell. If you know how to, just remove the roof ceiling (roof lining?) for a better view.

[Paolo B]

Ok, this is very helpful. I didn't think that the problem could be as simple as a zip tie blocking the movement but I guess it could be that. We'll have a look and I'll let you know. Thanks again.

[RobbiZ4]

Originally Posted by RobbiZ4

Pse apologize, but my expectation from 2 dozens of examined and repaired E89 roofs is, that all hydraulic hoses of this roof shell will break at the age of 10-12 years.

Update:
to get a better feeling for my own estimation, I dismounted the roof shell of my 2011 Z4 and checked the wires and hydraulic looms on both sides. There was no issue within the roof and not any other reason to open it.

Unfortunately(1), all 4+2 wires on both sides were already damaged, but not broken. Nevertheless I'v replaced it by inserting/soldering new high flexible wires.

Unfortunately(2), even all 2+2 hydraulic lines had several cuts in the critical bow below the roof shell. No idea how to save the current status without replacing the complete loom.

With this additional impression of my own Z4, I'm pretty sure most of the Z4 E89 will run into this issue.