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06-01-2017, 08:34 PM | #1 |
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Hardtop won't open - red light
I've never had a problem with my 2011 Z4 hardtop. The car has 25k miles.
The hardtop suddenly won't open. The red light on the open button flashes, and the convertible top is shown in the information display. Of course no specific information is provided. I open and closed the trunk multiple times. Unhooked and reset the trunk partition several times. I also unhooked the positive battery cable for 10 minutes and hooked it back up. No luck. Any other basic things I should try? Are there any diagnostic procedures or any way I can find out what's telling the system not to open the top? I prefer not to have to go to the dealer, given it's an hour away. But ... Thanks, Filippo
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06-02-2017, 10:36 AM | #2 |
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No, likely this is a failed sensor. You will likely have to take it to BMW or an INDY shop to have it diagnosed and repaired.
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06-07-2017, 01:38 PM | #4 |
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That sounds bout right but no i havent played around with it and wont unless i have an issue. If it aint broke dont fix it.
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06-07-2017, 11:10 PM | #5 |
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"convertible top is shown in the information display"
Is this display only because of the error or do you always get a display when operation the top? I would also suspect the micro swirches for the cargo partition |
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06-09-2017, 07:59 AM | #6 |
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So now the hardtop is consistently not opening. The yellow convertible symbol is displayed in the instrument cluster. According to BMW the yellow symbol means one of three things:
Clearly the drive is not overheated, and my vehicle is not moving. I find it highly unlikely that faulty sensors exist in those two conditions. This leads me to the partition sensor in the trunk. In plowing through various E89 technical documentation, "The various positions of the retractable hardtop and of the rear module are detected by 8 microswitches and 4 Hall sensors and signalled to the convertible top module Convertible Top Module (CTM). All microswitches and Hall sensors receive their voltage supply from the convertible top module and have diagnostic capabilities." Okay this is great but I don't have the BMW software to talk to the CTM and do diagnostics. One other thing from some other BMW technical docs: "Instrument Cluster - KOMBI. The instrument cluster provides the outside temperature (bus signal). The instrument cluster uses the check control symbol to show check control messages relating to the retractable hardtop." Furthermore, later in the docs: "Operating Pre-Conditions. Outside temperature above -12°C" Finally, this forum post in the UK is helpful: http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=95385 So with this information in hand let's get to my car. For the past few weeks my car's ambient temperature reading in the instrument cluster is +122 degrees. Now what is interesting about this is that until yesterday the DME had not registered a fault (P0072 is the fault). Why the fault? Well several things use that temperature reading. The instrument cluster display, the CTM for top operation, and the DME for engine management. It is the DME need that would cause an OBD-II code to be set. (let's put aside that I can't run logs for BQ Tuning until I solve this). What is strange to me is that the top operated up until yesterday, yet the +122 degrees has been showing for a couple weeks, and the P0072 hadn't set until yesterday. While the top wants to see temps about -12C, the +122 could be considered an out-of-range value ... so a sensor fault would take likely have the CTM say no dice. The only strange part about this is, the yellow convertible top symbol shows up (note above conditions for such) and the BMW list includes things like roof overheated, but does not say sensor fault is cause for turning on that light. So I need to fix the temperature sensor, obviously. It could be a wire short as well - the front bumper was replaced about 10 months ago. But I have a sneaky suspicion that the partition mount hall sensor has an issue. The above link the forum lists the partition sensor under the passenger side partition mount in the trunk floor. On my car it turns out to be on the driver side mount. Looking carefully one can see that partition mount is two pieces of plastic - the case, and the plastic knob which the partition clasps. Jerking the bottom of the case, using good force, with one's fingertips, will separate the case from the knob. The sensor is then seen. I have to pull the inside grey carpet to actually disconnect the sensor so I can get a multimeter on it. Prior to doing that I did two other tests to no avail. First, with the cover off, I set the partition down, wondering if the magnetic field was not strong enough with the plastic there (note a hall sensor is a electromagnetic sensor - the partition has a metal foot that, when set down on the sensor causes a voltage change). This didn't do anything. As a final test, I put a magnet on the sensor to affect voltage. No dice. That's where I am at now ... it's a beautiful day out and I have a hardtop e89 ... I'll post more as I dig in more. I hope this helps others - I believe we will see future issues with top function, so getting information out might help. Filippo p.s. I am starting to wonder if it is time to buy a PC laptop and get BMW diag software installed. I really haven't wanted to go there, but with this car and my newly purchased F10 535d, I'm starting to think I'll need them. I am gunshy about dealer diagnostics, especially as these cars get older.
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06-09-2017, 09:33 AM | #7 |
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inclination is also considered. If the car is on a hill that is too steep the top will not open. So looking at the angle sensor may be required.
but... I suppose that would be a different Check Control error symbol/message Last edited by NoQuarter; 06-09-2017 at 10:13 AM.. |
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06-13-2017, 03:30 PM | #9 |
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Sucks you're going through this frustrating prb. Just curious if you have been using the top on a regular basis? I assume you always take the necessary precautions when operating your top?
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06-13-2017, 04:00 PM | #10 |
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I'm coming around to thinking it is the ambient temperature sensor. I note that the AC doesn't work as well when this happens. I *think* that if the car is off (ambient temp is not in play as KOMBI is not functioning) the top operates with a bad sensor.
Filippo
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06-13-2017, 04:11 PM | #12 |
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What do you mean by "that sensitive"? It operates at a 0-2V range. If there is a short or wire break, it's going to be 0V or 2V. Without ambient temp data, each subsystem decides how to handle that. The DME runs the car a bit rich (and sets a P0072 ... well ... some times ... not sure why this is), best as I can tell, the top seems to not operate, and the AC just refuses to turn on. With each generation, the cars get more and more integrated.
Filippo
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06-15-2017, 09:53 AM | #13 |
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I just experienced the same red light problem in my 2013 z4, but not as problematic as yours is. I tried to put the top down from my key fob and when it didn't do anything I let go of the key fob and then the red light started flashing. I couldn't get the trunk to open. I turned off the car, waited a few seconds, turned the car back on and pushed the hard top off button from the inside and it worked normally.
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06-19-2017, 04:42 AM | #14 | |
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Quote:
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08-19-2017, 12:07 AM | #15 |
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My car did that, and actually got stuck half way open. It was in the shop for 4 weeks . They had to replace the entire wiring harness. Then God did the warranty. They replaced all the sensors tried everything, and finally just replaced all the harnesses, what a pain in the ass. Did you figure it out?
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08-19-2017, 04:47 PM | #16 |
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I had a bad external temperature sensor that seemed to be wreaking havoc with the roof.
Filippo
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08-20-2017, 09:32 PM | #18 |
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It doesn't actually make much sense, until one reads the BMW engineering docs and discovers that the TCM uses the temp sensor reading off the CANBUS to prevent the top from operating below 12 deg celcius if I recall (likely a limitation of the hydraulic system). Welcome to our world ...
Filippo
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07-16-2019, 03:23 PM | #19 |
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FACT: No Ambient Temp Senor = No Retracting Hardtop
On the subject of the E89 hardtop not opening...
My son bought a 2009 E89, which would not raise the top. The console switch would show solid red and the dash would show a yellow window. We also had an outside temp reading of 122F!!!!! While researching the issue on this forum, we began to play with the missing ambient temp sensor leads... 1. twisting the 2 wires together = 122F 2. separating the 2 wires = -44F So, we got to thinking that the ambient sensor is a resistance potentiometer. We grabbed a 1k resistor, twisted each end to the ambient sensor leads and voila, the dash now reads 77F. Furthermore, the hardtop now retracts. So this confirms that if you have a missing ambient temp sensor, the hardtop will not retract! |
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09-02-2019, 08:53 AM | #20 |
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Yep ... E89 Z4 BMW technical documentation specifically confirms the use of the sensor and valid operating range for the hydraulic pump that runs the top.
Filippo
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09-02-2019, 02:26 PM | #21 |
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But just shorting the sensor by a resistor is only a temporary solution.
Last edited by RobbiZ4; 09-12-2019 at 12:47 AM.. |
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09-03-2019, 01:18 PM | #22 |
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I haven't had any issues with my top lately, but I have noticed that the ambient temp sensor reads 5-10 degrees higher than actual. Makes me wonder if it's on it's way out as others here are having issues with them.
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