Still want an EV?

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

couple of things...

1. buy a Tesla next time

2. Move!!! how does anybody live anywhere near a place that gets to be -35 degrees

It gets colder than that, we don't all have the luxury of living somewhere that the temp remains moderate. Our government is going to force EV's down our throats regardless, and not everyone who buys an EV can afford a tesla.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

I do. But there’s no need to create a back and forth of 10 thread pages between you and I.

The short answer is, no it won’t work otherwise that would be implemented into the future plan, not ev.

Ev is here and will be the future in 2035. Move on already.

2035 on the move!

Hydrogen EV is still EV. Just going from Clarity to the 2nd gen Mirai, the efficiency has greatly improved 2x and a single refill gives 400 miles of highway range. The same size Tesla? You'll be lucky to get 250 miles highway range on a Model 3 LR. Need more hydrogen range? just put in a bigger tank. Toyota anticipates 3rd generation HEVs to top 500 miles of range with the same size fuel tank due to further efficiency gains. And this is still a very immature technology. The fact it works so well already is a testament to what it can do.

Infrastructure exists for Hydrogen adoption - just replace gas pumps with hydrogen pumps. That is how it is rolled out in California. You go to the gas station and they have 1 or 2 hydrogen pumps. Unlike EV chargers, a single hydrogen pump can service 30+ cars an hour. And in the trucking industry, hydrogen EV trucks can travel long distances, won't need huge batteries to power it and can refuel and be on the road instantly - same as diesel trucks today.

Then there's hydrogen creation, transport and storage. Right now it is mostly made from fossil fuel but you can use solar energy, wind energy and other renewable forms to make it. You can ship it, store it and use it when needed. This means places without the ability to generate clean electricity can get shipped clean energy sources. Heck, the same hydrogen that powers a car can be used to power homes as well.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

I grabbed this off of my retired police facebook page, the guy who posted it the son of a copper I worked with. Very interesting if not just antidotal. Thought this might interest you and your friends
Bryan Bootcamp:
·
Exactly one year after purchasing the electric Mustang Mach-E, I'd like to share my thoughts, pros and cons of driving an all electric car.
Pros:
1. Driving is like nothing I've experienced! The acceleration and power is so smooth and luxurious. What a ride!
2. Don't have to buy gas.
3. Low maintenance!!! No oil changes! Fewer moving parts equals less parts breaking down.
4. City driving is amazing! The car battery excels in slow, stop and go conditions.
Cons:
1. Winter driving is very stressful. The battery drains very quickly in the cold. Heating your cabin in extremely cold temperatures is sometimes impossible! At minus 35 degrees Celsius, your windshield will freeze over as NO HEAT will be provided! That's right...only cold air in very cold climate!
3. Charging your car takes much longer in the winter. Traveling to Ottawa once, it took 90 minutes to charge my car from 20% to 80% at a level 3 Charging spot.
4. The anger and frustration when you pull up to a fast charger off the highway and it is "out of order" is out of this world! It happens too often!
5. Everywhere you travel to, extensive careful planning is needed because fast chargers (level 3) are not easy to find in working order.
6. Highway driving drains your battery very fast at speeds greater than 100kms per hour.
In Summary:
1. My Mustang Mach-E is not a practical car for my job. I put 30,000kms in one year. If we have a colder Winter next year I'll be miserable!
2. The infrastructure is a joke for non- tesla cars. I cannot imagine doubling the electric cars on the road with the current available fast chargers. The wait lines and times to charge will increase arrival times on long trips by many hours!
3. Electric cars are not very efficient on the highway if you like to drive fast.
In my opinion, a plug-in Hybrid (PHEV) car would be ideal. PHEV cars can drive electric in the city, saving you on gas. Then choose gas to drive efficiently on the highway. Win-win!
I sold my Mustang Mach-E and I am on a waiting list to buy a PHEV. It was a fun ride while it lasted but very impractical for my line of work. Our cold Quebec winters and the very poor infrastructure adds to my obvious decision.
Our governments want to put a holt on the production of internal combustion engines by 2035. Good luck with that! The current infrastructure is a joke. I do not have any faith it can be improved to meet the future demand.

I'm goin' with the Cons outweigh the Pros...


Did I get that right?

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'm goin' with the Cons outweigh the Pros...


Did I get that right?

Such a tampon!!!!!! Such a Tampon move to buy a shit Ford. Tesla makes the best EV period even at -35C, Lord Elon said it’d be able to give me 150% range in the cold because such is Teslas advantage!!!! buying any other EV is just a tampon being a tampon…. Or some bullshit…

2035!!! Or 2030!!!! Or whatever date of the day is now!!!!!
Go elon!!!!
Tampons!!!!!!
Lmaoooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I use enough exclamation marks?

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

couple of things...

1. buy a Tesla next time

2. Move!!! how does anybody live anywhere near a place that gets to be -35 degrees

Exactly!!!

Get a brand that works. With the performance the range and the network to back it up.

But nah I guess it’s also cool to bitch about the inevitable, things they can’t control, a car maker they hate but sour at watching it succeed.

Yeah, 2028-2030 will be fun. 2035 will be the party!!!!!!!!!!

Ze move de 2035 es cumming!!!!!!’

[KRS_SN]

This my friends ...makes a lot of sense . Do yourself a favour and Skip to minute 1 to see a real intelligent guy speak

https://youtu.be/-wdyKHM8vzM

[M5Rick]

^ This is how to stop SK.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/ulez-expa...urt-challenge/

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Z K

Hydrogen EV is still EV. Just going from Clarity to the 2nd gen Mirai, the efficiency has greatly improved 2x and a single refill gives 400 miles of highway range. The same size Tesla? You'll be lucky to get 250 miles highway range on a Model 3 LR. Need more hydrogen range? just put in a bigger tank. Toyota anticipates 3rd generation HEVs to top 500 miles of range with the same size fuel tank due to further efficiency gains. And this is still a very immature technology. The fact it works so well already is a testament to what it can do.

Infrastructure exists for Hydrogen adoption - just replace gas pumps with hydrogen pumps. That is how it is rolled out in California. You go to the gas station and they have 1 or 2 hydrogen pumps. Unlike EV chargers, a single hydrogen pump can service 30+ cars an hour. And in the trucking industry, hydrogen EV trucks can travel long distances, won't need huge batteries to power it and can refuel and be on the road instantly - same as diesel trucks today.

Then there's hydrogen creation, transport and storage. Right now it is mostly made from fossil fuel but you can use solar energy, wind energy and other renewable forms to make it. You can ship it, store it and use it when needed. This means places without the ability to generate clean electricity can get shipped clean energy sources. Heck, the same hydrogen that powers a car can be used to power homes as well.

The problem with hydrogen is that it is very inefficient. The efficiency of regular EVs is like 60-80% whereas hydrogen is like 30-40%. The cost of hydrogen is also typically more than the straight electricity. Also, the cost of building a hydrogen station is significantly more than building a charging station. Like millions vs thousands.

At the start if this I thought hydrogen made more sense, but the more I looked into it the more issues seem to come up with hydrogen. Now add to that the momentum already in place with evs and I don't really see hydrogen taking off anytime soon, except maybe for some niche markets.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Hydrogen definitely isn't the future.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electr...el%20as%20BEVs


Disadvantages of hydrogen cars:
Patchy refuelling infrastructure (just 11 H2 stations open to the British public in early 2022)
Technology still expensive – pricier than battery electric vehicles
Fuel-cells not as efficient well-to-wheel as BEVs
Cleanliness depends on how hydrogen is produced

What are 2 dangers of using hydrogen as a fuel?
Specifically, hydrogen has a wide range of flammable concentrations in air and lower ignition energy than gasoline or natural gas, which means it can ignite more easily. Consequently, adequate ventilation and leak detection are important elements in the design of safe hydrogen systems.

This one is cool

Will hydrogen overtake electric?
A new study published in the peer-reviewed journal Nature has confirmed what common sense has made clear for years: Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles aren't likely to catch up to battery-electric vehicles – even for commercial trucks. The auto industry has been divided on solutions to remove emissions from their products.


What are the 3 cons of hydrogen?
The disadvantages of using hydrogen as fuel
If it is “grey”, it pollutes. If it is not produced using renewable sources, hydrogen pollutes. ...
It is a gas that is difficult to handle. ...
It is less advantageous than electric power for cars.



I mean i can keep going with these articles but i don't wanna bury the hydrogen argument too far into the grave because i like when people come up with aimless reasoning as to why they don't want an EV future.

Well too late, because???????

2035 on ze move!!!!!

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

The problem with hydrogen is that it is very inefficient. The efficiency of regular EVs is like 60-80% whereas hydrogen is like 30-40%. The cost of hydrogen is also typically more than the straight electricity. Also, the cost of building a hydrogen station is significantly more than building a charging station. Like millions vs thousands.

At the start if this I thought hydrogen made more sense, but the more I looked into it the more issues seem to come up with hydrogen. Now add to that the momentum already in place with evs and I don't really see hydrogen taking off anytime soon, except maybe for some niche markets.

The problem with having charging stations everywhere is the assumption that there is adequate power to serve it/them. Hydrogen generation can be located at a convenient location with plenty of supply, and after concentration it can be moved to where it needs distributed, much like petrol fuels. If could be generated at a solar site during the day when there is plenty of excess energy, made 100% greenly, and them moved to where it's needed.

Charging stations depend on the grid, and that's a whole different story about supply and delivery. Making assumptions is typically bad form, and this scenario is no exception. add to this that most cars are charged at night when there is very little green power, and the flaw in this thinking becomes more egregious.

All this EV stuff depends on something no one seems to be aware of where or how it actually it gets made and delivered. If you don't know where these watts will come from (meaning it's not baked into the plan), you have no business making such plans. And no, "somebody else will figure that out..." is not an acceptable answer.

[KRS_SN]

Carbon offsetting..Carbon capture..efuel..hydrogen...phev...ev...
The more I think about it the less I think there is any chance that any of those is going to replace our reliance on fossil fuel over the next 12 years. If you live enlightened in this knowledge its easy. There's always people driven by ideology and by money to make sacrifices and adjustments but majority of humans always go neither for the cheapest or the greenest..they fall in line with the path of least effort:-)

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Hydrogen definitely isn't the future.

Disadvantages of hydrogen cars:
Patchy refuelling infrastructure
That's the same problem EV's have.

Technology still expensive –
That's the same problem EV's have

Fuel-cells not as efficient well-to-wheel as BEVs
Gasoline is less efficient than diesel, yet there is a time and place for both.

Cleanliness depends on how hydrogen is produced
That's the same problem EV's have.

What are 2 dangers of using hydrogen as a fuel?
As if there have been no battery fires.

This one is cool: Will hydrogen overtake electric?
Does it need to in order to be a good idea? This isn't some zero sum game where there can only be one solution.

What are the 3 cons of hydrogen?The disadvantages of using hydrogen as fuel

If it is “grey”, it pollutes. If it is not produced using renewable sources, hydrogen pollutes. ...
That's the same problem EV's have.

It is a gas that is difficult to handle. ...
That's the same problem EV's have. you an electrician? you know what it takes to get watts into your car?

It is less advantageous than electric power for cars.
That's the same problem EV's have vs ICE cars.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

Carbon offsetting..Carbon capture..efuel..hydrogen...phev...ev...
The more I think about it the less I think there is any chance that any of those is going to replace our reliance on fossil fuel over the next 12 years. If you live enlightened in this knowledge its easy. There's always people driven by ideology and by money to make sacrifices and adjustments but majority of humans always go neither for the cheapest or the greenest..they fall in line with the path of least effort:-)

According to AOC's calculations, we will all be doomed in 2031 anyway, the world will end. 2035 will be way too late.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

According to AOC's calculations, we will all be doomed in 2031 anyway, the world will end. 2035 will be way too late.

I don't know AOC but that claim is plain stupid. It's like the mayan calendar 2012 thing ie until 2012 came how could anyone in 2010 really prove that it was utter bs though most sensible people knew it.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

The problem with having charging stations everywhere is the assumption that there is adequate power to serve it/them. Hydrogen generation can be located at a convenient location with plenty of supply, and after concentration it can be moved to where it needs distributed, much like petrol fuels. If could be generated at a solar site during the day when there is plenty of excess energy, made 100% greenly, and them moved to where it's needed.

Charging stations depend on the grid, and that's a whole different story about supply and delivery. Making assumptions is typically bad form, and this scenario is no exception. add to this that most cars are charged at night when there is very little green power, and the flaw in this thinking becomes more egregious.

All this EV stuff depends on something no one seems to be aware of where or how it actually it gets made and delivered. If you don't know where these watts will come from (meaning it's not baked into the plan), you have no business making such plans. And no, "somebody else will figure that out..." is not an acceptable answer.

If we can't handle charging evs I doubt we can handle producing hydrogen at half the efficiency. But I'm no engineer so wtf do it know. I just know if I had to go fill up my model 3 with hydrogen every week it would suck and I would just drive my ICE.

While I don't question the levels of human stupidity... I still doubt anything is going to happen come 2035 or whatever. Big hoopla over nothing. Either the mandate will go away as soooo much political crap does and no one will even remember it or the grid will grow over the next decade to support it. My guess is some combination of both. The ICE ban will most likely go away AND EV sales will increase forcing upgrades to the grid. Remember when the world was going to end in 2000?

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

If we can't handle charging evs I doubt we can handle producing hydrogen at half the efficiency. But I'm no engineer so wtf do it know. I just know if I had to go fill up my model 3 with hydrogen every week it would suck and I would just drive my ICE.

While I don't question the levels of human stupidity... I still doubt anything is going to happen come 2035 or whatever. Big hoopla over nothing. Either the mandate will go away as soooo much political crap does and no one will even remember it or the grid will grow over the next decade to support it. My guess is some combination of both. The ICE ban will most likely go away AND EV sales will increase forcing upgrades to the grid. Remember when the world was going to end in 2000?

Actually, that’s a pretty reasonable and logical assessment of what’s going to happen. I pretty much agree with what you just wrote. Well said sir.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

If we can't handle charging evs I doubt we can handle producing hydrogen at half the efficiency. But I'm no engineer so wtf do it know. I just know if I had to go fill up my model 3 with hydrogen every week it would suck and I would just drive my ICE.

Agreed, it's almost like a cult has formed around the EV solution, no one wants to study the problem, they just want it. If EV is a good idea, so is Hydrogen. If Hydrogen is a bad idea, so is EV. I won't tell you what to choose, I'm just here to study the problem (as an engineer).

While I don't question the levels of human stupidity... I still doubt anything is going to happen come 2035 or whatever. Big hoopla over nothing. Either the mandate will go away as soooo much political crap does and no one will even remember it or the grid will grow over the next decade to support it. My guess is some combination of both. The ICE ban will most likely go away AND EV sales will increase forcing upgrades to the grid. Remember when the world was going to end in 2000?

Ah yes, rational thought...

[Z K]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

If we can't handle charging evs I doubt we can handle producing hydrogen at half the efficiency. But I'm no engineer so wtf do it know. I just know if I had to go fill up my model 3 with hydrogen every week it would suck and I would just drive my ICE.

Again, that is looking at people charging at home. As pointed out earlier, the majority of cars are not garaged and so would not be able to charge at home. That makes charging an EV quite bigger chore than going to fill up at a gas station.

The problem with hydrogen is that it is very inefficient. The efficiency of regular EVs is like 60-80% whereas hydrogen is like 30-40%. The cost of hydrogen is also typically more than the straight electricity. Also, the cost of building a hydrogen station is significantly more than building a charging station. Like millions vs thousands.

Yes, but as mentioned before, hydrogen efficiency is increasing. Just Mirai 1 to Mirai 2, they increased hydrogen usage efficiency over 50%. That's just within a few years! Producing hydrogen can get better as well. Japan is pushing this hard and they're making huge progress.

As for cost, as I said, you can plop hydrogen pumps at existing gas stations which is a fraction the cost of building a whole new facility. That is what most hydrogen stations are in California - a hydrogen pump at an existing gas station. And that cost of building a "charging station" is way exaggerated. It is only thousands because that one charging station can charge only a few cars. Plus hydrogen can be produced on site with solar power, there's no need to hook up to the power grid!

For example, Say it costs $100k to build a "charging station" aka a single charger, that charging station can charge maybe 2 cars an hour? Say a hydrogen station is $1M, that's 10x more. That single pump can fill up 30-40 cars an hour. That is still cheaper than the charging station and way more efficient at dispensing fuel/charging.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Disadvantages of hydrogen cars:
Patchy refuelling infrastructure
That's the same problem EV's have.

Technology still expensive –
That's the same problem EV's have

Fuel-cells not as efficient well-to-wheel as BEVs
Gasoline is less efficient than diesel, yet there is a time and place for both.

Cleanliness depends on how hydrogen is produced
That's the same problem EV's have.

What are 2 dangers of using hydrogen as a fuel?
As if there have been no battery fires.

This one is cool: Will hydrogen overtake electric?
Does it need to in order to be a good idea? This isn't some zero sum game where there can only be one solution.

What are the 3 cons of hydrogen?The disadvantages of using hydrogen as fuel

If it is “grey”, it pollutes. If it is not produced using renewable sources, hydrogen pollutes. ...
That's the same problem EV's have.

It is a gas that is difficult to handle. ...
That's the same problem EV's have. you an electrician? you know what it takes to get watts into your car?

It is less advantageous than electric power for cars.
That's the same problem EV's have vs ICE cars.

Let me know when hydrogen surpasses EV.


lmaooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Let me know when hydrogen surpasses EV.


lmaooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Let me know when EV surpasses Gasoline

[BGM-M3COMP]

Let's go elon with more V4 superchargers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No one will catch up to sir elon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Let me know when EV surpasses Gasoline

I won't need to let you know. Time will.

2028-2030 is the holy shit it's really gonna happen moment.

2035 is holy fuck i can't believe it happened moment.


On ze move!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!