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      10-17-2022, 02:25 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2CS View Post
Ham got a slap on the wrist because he wasn't completely at fault. Moving on, the $1.8 million Redbull needed to spend to repair the car didn't give them freedom to breach the cost cap.
I'm not agreed . Your post won't change anything about the fact :
That MAX is the double 2021/2022 World Champion and Red Bull takes the 2022 Constructors World Title .

HAM won't win a race in this season and will disappear again like last winter .
MAX and Red Bull took Mercedes completely down !
And in 2023 they will do it again .

As I said , this is only the beginning ..
Period !
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      10-17-2022, 02:28 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2CS View Post
...the $1.8 million Redbull needed to spend to repair the car didn't give them freedom to breach the cost cap.
^This...plain and simple.
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      10-17-2022, 02:51 PM   #201
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I see the kids are out talking about cars and crashes again and $1.8m is the reason..

Only in part, there is allocation in the regs for costs of parts to included especially around sprint races where costs can be included and the teams don’t get a big hit. It’s more an issue for junior teams.

But it could be why some teams are only upgrading one car at a time for example, RBR have done that to Maxs cars for example. But it’s something all teams have to account for and worse case they might have to go back to old parts for example. This is why you see very few in season radical upgrades to parts.

Last edited by MontyB1; 10-17-2022 at 03:03 PM..
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      10-17-2022, 04:37 PM   #202
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Here are a few bits from the reg that might help a few on who has the responsibility to comply.

Quote:
These Financial Regulations will be interpreted and applied by the Cost Cap Administration, the Cost Cap Adjudication Panel and the ICA in a consistent manner that treats all F1 Teams equally and that achieves the Objectives.
Quote:
Accountability
1.8 Each F1 Team must ensure that all Personnel are made awarea) of the Objectives, content and substance of these Financial Regulations; and
(b) that the F1 Team is subject to these Financial Regulations.
1.9 Each F1 Team must ensure that all relevant Personnel are appropriately informed and trained with respect to the ways in which their areas of responsibility may impact the F1 Teamís compliance with these Financial Regulations.
1.10 Each F1 Team must ensure that the FIA ethics and compliance policy in force from time to time with respect to these Financial Regulations is clearly communicated to all Personnel.

Oh and you have to love lawyers for passages like this.
Quote:
The additional entities to be included within the Reporting Group where an F1 Team has incurred less than 95% of the costs of the F1 Activities undertaken by or on behalf of that F1 Team in the Reporting Period shall be the entity (other than the F1 Team) within the F1 Teamís Legal Group Structure that incurred the greatest amount of costs of the F1 Activities undertaken by or on behalf of the F1 Team in the Reporting Period, followed (to the extent required) by the entity within the F1 Teamís Legal Group Structure that incurred the next greatest amount of such costs, and so on, until the entities included within the Reporting Group have incurred, in aggregate, 95% or more of the costs of the F1 Activities undertaken by or on behalf of the F1 Team in the Reporting Period.
One last thing - people should read section 3 on exclusions. It lists pretty much EVERYTHING you could imaging that you don't need to include in the costs. Buildings, bonus, gas, electricity it goes on and on. Oh and sick pay that's excluded that has been mentioned as the reason before, all outside of actual cost cap.

Give it a read, it might enlighten a few as to what is actually in and out and how complex it is. Its very similar to docs I and I'm sure others deal with in other industries. Sometimes you don't want to ask the question to clarify something but in this case, well if you don' then...... well we know the rest.
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      10-17-2022, 04:52 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaungo View Post
No accounts because they're still being audited and investigated by the FIA and auditors.


They're going over every cent spent to see where the overage is and what the FIA included when RBR didn't.
Just to clarify the point having re-read the regs. The FIA have effectively said that the teams auditors are the ones that need to create and compile the report in the required format to supply to the FIA. An interesting angle as the then puts some of the onus of compliance on the auditor not just the team.

So I could easily see a position where the team want the auditors to do something with the numbers they aren't comfortable with (this isn't abnormal). And to make matters worse for the team and the teams auditor the FIA reserve the right to then effectively run a full audit of them themselves using a separate auditor normally Deloitte.

Only one team hasn't managed to get approval of accounts or agree an ABA...

Last edited by MontyB1; 10-17-2022 at 05:26 PM..
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      10-17-2022, 05:52 PM   #204
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For folks saying that the Silverstone crash was the differentiator to the red bull forget that redbull continued to bring regular updates to the car, even well after that incident. If nothing else, this shows that they made no meaningful attempt to adjust their spending as a result of the incident, which negates that argument altogether.

Every team/operation has reviews and makes adjustments to unplanned events as they occur. The only way the argument that the Silverstone crash being the reason for the overspend matters is if that crash occurred after all the upgrades were made and brought to the car. Plenty of evidence to the contrary, however.
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      10-17-2022, 05:58 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls View Post
This is a problem greater than RB being over the cap for whatever reason.

If this is true and Newey's compensation is not being counted because he's listed as a "contractor", teams are going to start being a lot more creative.

Good for Red Bull for making Newey and outside contractor and avoiding the cap if this is true. Let the FIA and everyone involved think long and hard about how the cap is calculated. From the 5% breach buffer and only top 3 salaries being calculated, this whole cap is stupid. Set a hard cap with all salaries included, what's the point of only including top 3?
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      10-18-2022, 12:21 AM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls View Post
This is a problem greater than RB being over the cap for whatever reason.

If this is true and Newey's compensation is not being counted because he's listed as a "contractor", teams are going to start being a lot more creative.

Good for Red Bull for making Newey and outside contractor and avoiding the cap if this is true. Let the FIA and everyone involved think long and hard about how the cap is calculated. From the 5% breach buffer and only top 3 salaries being calculated, this whole cap is stupid. Set a hard cap with all salaries included, what's the point of only including top 3?
Good, I started watching F1 in the first place because the cars and the engineering behind them. Drivers and their diva personalities were always last. Pay the drivers less and expand to develop the cars more. Lets see these teams and engineers push the boundaries of the rules.

Last edited by M3WC; 10-18-2022 at 12:48 AM..
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      10-18-2022, 11:10 AM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Budget cap ?

By HAM's dirty trick at Copse , this 2021 wreck costed Red Bull $1.8 Million !
In Italy he would have been have been detained by the Carabinieri to explain himself but of course it's brit land and stewards closed their eyes.
This is why I will never go to Silverstone again, they can sux my y-k-w
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      10-18-2022, 11:18 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
The latest
According to Helmut Marko :The FIA confirmed that Red Bull didn't overspend on car development.

I read that Red Bull overspend for +/- 1000 free tasty meals/day at the factory .
As you know , food I'snt cheap either. But a well-filled stomach will always perform better !
That's why the RB18 is such a well performing car ...
OC . The free meals are sponsored by Red Bull as well ...

Enjoy your daily tasty free Red Bull meal !
yum yum delicious that RB canteen grub
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      10-18-2022, 04:08 PM   #209
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So another angle itís not just Christian, Marko, Newey or even Pierreís it could all of them as the FIA think three of those costs should be included but RBR have tried to manipulate another way maybe!

He thinks the punishment, reduced wind tunnel time and cost cap reduction for 2/3 years potentially. On and the amount of the breach seems to be at least $2m, he tends to be in the knowÖ


Peter Windsors view of who is causing the issue and expected punishment.
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      10-18-2022, 04:51 PM   #210
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Adrian Newey a……contractor?!?!

lollllllllll
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      10-18-2022, 09:46 PM   #211
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contractor or not, he's got nothing to do with car development
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      10-19-2022, 03:29 AM   #212
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If it is a salary issue you can imagine the conversation.

FIA - So who are you saying are the top three paid?
RBR - Christian, Pierre and Joe the chief mechanic.
FIA - No Marko, Adrian
RBR - Who?
FIA - You know those top people that are on the pit wall and in the garage that designed the car and run the team. We see Marko all the time and Adrian designed it didn't he.
RBR - Erm, well they are there but they are doing it for the goodness of their health, yeah that's it.
FIA - OK then erm, we need to have a little chat we will get back to you.
RBR - Oh we all good we are under the cap then?
FIA - FFS....
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      10-19-2022, 06:00 AM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB1 View Post
If it is a salary issue you can imagine the conversation.

FIA - So who are you saying are the top three paid?
RBR - Christian, Pierre and Joe the chief mechanic.
FIA - No Marko, Adrian
RBR - Who?
FIA - You know those top people that are on the pit wall and in the garage that designed the car and run the team. We see Marko all the time and Adrian designed it didn't he.
RBR - Erm, well they are there but they are doing it for the goodness of their health, yeah that's it.
FIA - OK then erm, we need to have a little chat we will get back to you.
RBR - Oh we all good we are under the cap then?
FIA - FFS....
Technically, if the rules states that outside contracting doesn't count in the budget cap, that's the FIA's fault for having that loophole.

It means you can literally fire your top earners, and hire them as a outside contractor, thus circumventing it, and that would be legal.
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      10-19-2022, 09:15 AM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB1 View Post
If it is a salary issue you can imagine the conversation.

FIA - So who are you saying are the top three paid?
RBR - Christian, Pierre and Joe the chief mechanic.
FIA - No Marko, Adrian
RBR - Who?
FIA - You know those top people that are on the pit wall and in the garage that designed the car and run the team. We see Marko all the time and Adrian designed it didn't he.
RBR - Erm, well they are there but they are doing it for the goodness of their health, yeah that's it.
FIA - OK then erm, we need to have a little chat we will get back to you.
RBR - Oh we all good we are under the cap then?
FIA - FFS....
Your 'imagination looks like window decoration .

In one word : BS
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      10-19-2022, 10:23 AM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaungo View Post
Technically, if the rules states that outside contracting doesn't count in the budget cap, that's the FIA's fault for having that loophole.

It means you can literally fire your top earners, and hire them as a outside contractor, thus circumventing it, and that would be legal.
You didn't read it then no? Ok.
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      10-19-2022, 10:45 AM   #216
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Max fans on this forum are truly something else.
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      10-19-2022, 10:48 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovade View Post
Max fans on this forum are truly something else.
What do you mean mate ?
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      10-19-2022, 11:50 AM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovade View Post
Max fans on this forum are truly something else.
Lewis and Max fans are both bat sh*t crazy.

Literally every comment section of just about all F1 sites are full them still arguing about last year.

Go touch some grass.
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      10-20-2022, 11:02 AM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3WC View Post
Lewis and Max fans are both bat sh*t crazy.

Literally every comment section of just about all F1 sites are full them still arguing about last year.

Go touch some grass.
The difference however is that we are now finding out one of those teams broke a rule that many feel gained them advantage last year as well as this year. And the way they are dominating, it's kinda hard to shrug that off.

And it's not even an innovative type of cheating like blown diffusers....
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      10-20-2022, 12:28 PM   #220
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The silence from the FIA says a lot.

I don't think anything will come of this. And next year people will cheat (more)
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