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      02-18-2021, 09:42 AM   #1
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I still can't justify a BEV, but I did get a PHEV

Here I am with the gasoline consumption blue. I drive 100 miles a day round trip and my fuel bill is about $300/month at $2.40/gallon.

Would I gain anything by getting a slightly used all electric car?

Assuming that it's $12K for a low mileage car and I pay cash for it.
At 40 months I'm just breaking even.

Would the fuel costs plus wear and tear on a big SUV to drive 80k miles justify an electric car?

Driving my SUV for 80K miles -- will need 2 sets of 22" tires $2800, brake service $1000, total fuel at current prices $9600. Engine oil/service $1000 - total cost $14,400

Driving an electric car for 80k miles -- Cost of the vehicle $12K, 2 set of tires $1000, brake service $1000, electricity cost ???

So when does an all electric vehicle make sense?
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      02-18-2021, 09:56 AM   #2
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Where do you get a slightly used EV with the range that you need? An electric car may make some sense if you can charge it from your own solar panels. When you live in here and there I can't determine if solar would make sense for you. One other factor about electric is in the future you may have trouble finding a gas vehicle as most manufacturers are looking at making EVs.
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      02-18-2021, 09:56 AM   #3
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The car you drive 100 miles per day - do you ever take it on trips that exceed 100% of battery range? For example, have you ever taken your daily work car more than 300 miles in one day? Beware of an electric vehicle.

Have you ever driven a car into a low temperature location, far from a high current charging device? Beware of an electric vehicle.

Are you ok with having a shrinking gas tank over time? Battery range decreases with age. Beware of an electric vehicle.

Are you ok with the battery replacement and recycling cost, should it occur? Beware of an electric vehicle.

A 40 month payback is very poor, from an investment point of view. Beware of an electric vehicle.

Summary: beware of an electric vehicle.
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      02-18-2021, 10:11 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
So when does an all electric vehicle make sense?
As long as you never intend to buy another vehicle, it doesn't look like it will ever make sense for you.
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      02-18-2021, 10:14 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by chassis View Post
The car you drive 100 miles per day - do you ever take it on trips that exceed 100% of battery range? For example, have you ever taken your daily work car more than 300 miles in one day? Beware of an electric vehicle.

Have you ever driven a car into a low temperature location, far from a high current charging device? Beware of an electric vehicle.

Are you ok with having a shrinking gas tank over time? Battery range decreases with age. Beware of an electric vehicle.

Are you ok with the battery replacement and recycling cost, should it occur? Beware of an electric vehicle.

A 40 month payback is very poor, from an investment point of view. Beware of an electric vehicle.

Summary: beware of an electric vehicle.
I take it on 300-1000 mile trip regularly. I also tow an 8000 pound camping trailer about 4 times a year. On a 1000 miles trip takes about 4 fill up. Normal range unladen would only take 2.

It was -9F yesterday and the average temperature was around 18F.

It's practically an economy car -- getting roughly the same mileage as my F32 440i Xdrive
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      02-18-2021, 10:23 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
As long as you never intend to buy another vehicle, it doesn't look like it will ever make sense for you.
I never intend to buy anything. It just happens when I wander into the lot.
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      02-18-2021, 10:29 AM   #7
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I never intend to buy anything. It just happens when I wander into the lot.
In that case, an electric vehicle makes sense:

a) as soon as you find one that you like, if it will be in addition to your current vehicle.

b) as soon as you find one that you like and covers all of your use cases, if it will replace your current vehicle.
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      02-18-2021, 10:57 AM   #8
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I'm not against owning an EV as a daily driver but the issue is that there isn't one that exists today that's desirable at a decent price point. When manufacturers not named Tesla start offering EV's that offer style and decent performance I will be interested. The Mach-E is a good start but I don't want another Ford as I've been burned too many times.
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      02-18-2021, 10:59 AM   #9
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There's a lot of fear mongering with EVs.

1. Most people only travel under 30 miles daily ONE way.
2. Even before the pandemic, many companies are transitioning to remote work environments for a variety of good reasons. Remote workers generally don't even need a car. Hell, people who live in really big cities don't even own a car.
3. The average American worker with under 10 years of tenure gets about 11 vacation days a year. I will assume that if your taking vacation you would take a week off at a time or possibly 4 mini vacations. I'll further assume those are the only times you would travel a long distance/need to tow a largeish trailer... Renting a Dodge Ram 1500 for a week from Hertz cost $250 inc extra insurance. So maybe $1000 plus fuel for the year and you always a new reliable purpose built vehicle for this task vs a unibody SUV which is more than likely is not designed for the load.

Of my 10 close friends (4 families, 6 couples) only two need a vehicle for their employment or drive more than what 300 miles. They work in IT, pharma sales, construction, nursing, food services, accounting and teaching. All 60 employees where I work, work remotely.

Just as we transitioned from horses to cars, the EV move will be a transition. Infrastructure will follow and is already rapidly being built out. People will change how they live and travel. Electric planes will be next and that will drive down air travel costs down even further with no jet fuel costs/simplier propulsion. So we may find that people will just fly more when they need to travel further and either rent a car or use a car sharing service.

If your only consideration is cost... Go buy a 2010-2012 Camry for $5- 7k cash and daily it. It'll cost $150 a month on fuel. Maintaince is $50/month on that car and it'll cover everything... tires, brakes, oil changes, etc. Rent a truck when you wanna tow your camper. No EV is going to match or beat that cost....ever.
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      02-18-2021, 11:21 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VChenz View Post
There's a lot of fear mongering with EVs.

1. Most people only travel under 30 miles daily ONE way.
2. Even before the pandemic, many companies are transitioning to remote work environments for a variety of good reasons. Remote workers generally don't even need a car. Hell, people who live in really big cities don't even own a car.
3. The average American worker with under 10 years of tenure gets about 11 vacation days a year. I will assume that if your taking vacation you would take a week off at a time or possibly 4 mini vacations. I'll further assume those are the only times you would travel a long distance/need to tow a largeish trailer... Renting a Dodge Ram 1500 for a week from Hertz cost $250 inc extra insurance. So maybe $1000 plus fuel for the year and you always a new reliable purpose built vehicle for this task vs a unibody SUV which is more than likely is not designed for the load.

Of my 10 close friends (4 families, 6 couples) only two need a vehicle for their employment or drive more than what 300 miles. They work in IT, pharma sales, construction, nursing, food services, accounting and teaching. All 60 employees where I work, work remotely.

Just as we transitioned from horses to cars, the EV move will be a transition. Infrastructure will follow and is already rapidly being built out. People will change how they live and travel. Electric planes will be next and that will drive down air travel costs down even further with no jet fuel costs/simplier propulsion. So we may find that people will just fly more when they need to travel further and either rent a car or use a car sharing service.

If your only consideration is cost... Go buy a 2010-2012 Camry for $5- 7k cash and daily it. It'll cost $150 a month on fuel. Maintaince is $50/month on that car and it'll cover everything... tires, brakes, oil changes, etc. Rent a truck when you wanna tow your camper. No EV is going to match or beat that cost....ever.
Love your post except I would change this to a Prius.
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      02-18-2021, 11:35 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VChenz View Post
There's a lot of fear mongering with EVs.

1. Most people only travel under 30 miles daily ONE way.
2. Even before the pandemic, many companies are transitioning to remote work environments for a variety of good reasons. Remote workers generally don't even need a car. Hell, people who live in really big cities don't even own a car.
3. The average American worker with under 10 years of tenure gets about 11 vacation days a year. I will assume that if your taking vacation you would take a week off at a time or possibly 4 mini vacations. I'll further assume those are the only times you would travel a long distance/need to tow a largeish trailer... Renting a Dodge Ram 1500 for a week from Hertz cost $250 inc extra insurance. So maybe $1000 plus fuel for the year and you always a new reliable purpose built vehicle for this task vs a unibody SUV which is more than likely is not designed for the load.

Of my 10 close friends (4 families, 6 couples) only two need a vehicle for their employment or drive more than what 300 miles. They work in IT, pharma sales, construction, nursing, food services, accounting and teaching. All 60 employees where I work, work remotely.

Just as we transitioned from horses to cars, the EV move will be a transition. Infrastructure will follow and is already rapidly being built out. People will change how they live and travel. Electric planes will be next and that will drive down air travel costs down even further with no jet fuel costs/simplier propulsion. So we may find that people will just fly more when they need to travel further and either rent a car or use a car sharing service.

If your only consideration is cost... Go buy a 2010-2012 Camry for $5- 7k cash and daily it. It'll cost $150 a month on fuel. Maintaince is $50/month on that car and it'll cover everything... tires, brakes, oil changes, etc. Rent a truck when you wanna tow your camper. No EV is going to match or beat that cost....ever.
1. I work 100 miles round trip
2. I'm in the food/pharma industry. We are a key medical component supplier. I drove through several counties during level 3 snow emergency to get to work
3. I have less than 10 years seniority but I have 26 days of vacation plus holidays

I have a very large full frame SUV that can easily pull a trailer and can comfortably be used as big station wagon. It's extremely economical for the size and capability but it's soon to be an anachronism. It's great as long as fuel price remains under $3 but once gasoline hits $5 it will be an end to an era. Much like the time when Hummer H2 stopped selling.

I'm just afraid if I wait too long, all the inexpensive low mileage used EV will be gone. I have nothing against an EV or anything electric powered. Most of my yard tools are already battery-electric. But since I have a bank of batteries that can be charged on a quick charger. There's no disruption of service. The same can't be said for an EV. A stage 2 home charger still takes 6 hours.

But once gasoline becomes $5/gallon it's only going to take 24 months to break even in my scenario.

I still think gasoline will hover around $3 average at least in the U.S. but for how long.
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      02-18-2021, 11:52 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VChenz View Post

If your only consideration is cost... Go buy a 2010-2012 Camry for $5- 7k cash and daily it. It'll cost $150 a month on fuel. Maintaince is $50/month on that car and it'll cover everything... tires, brakes, oil changes, etc. Rent a truck when you wanna tow your camper. No EV is going to match or beat that cost....ever.
exactly. a cheap beater makes more sense than EV at this point for me. I drive around 80 miles a day round trip all highway. There won't be any depreciation, 87 octane is cheap, you dont even have to put full coverage on it just liability which is like $10-15 a month.

if i run the numbers its like 1500-1600 a year in gas, driving 20k miles a year averaging 30mpg. its going to take a long long time before my 6k civic loses out to 30k+ tesla.
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      02-18-2021, 11:54 AM   #13
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I'm just afraid if I wait too long, all the inexpensive low mileage used EV will be gone.
Which used EVs are you eyeing to accommodate your 100 mile daily usage model? You should avoid anything with under 200 mile range because seasonal/weather considerations and other factors will have a significant impact.

You are looking for an EV to make sense under some strict set of criteria. I am curious whether your GMC Yukon (if I remember correctly) or your BMW 440i purchases involved such rigor. By your own admission, your vehicle shipping tends to involve some impulsivity, so it sounds like maybe that was the case when you purchased those two vehicles as well.

Are you perhaps overthinking this EV conundrum a smidge? If you are open to an EV purchase, a cheap used one is a great way to test the waters. That's what I did a few years ago, and after having been convinced over that period, my current plan is to switch to a Mustang Mach E later this year.
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      02-18-2021, 01:14 PM   #14
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You can use this to help with fuel cost comparisons -https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find...tion=sbsSelect

I think you are questioning getting another vehicle to save money? I would be surprised if this works out.

In the original calculation I don't see insurance and registration figured in.
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      02-19-2021, 09:43 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Which used EVs are you eyeing to accommodate your 100 mile daily usage model? You should avoid anything with under 200 mile range because seasonal/weather considerations and other factors will have a significant impact.

You are looking for an EV to make sense under some strict set of criteria. I am curious whether your GMC Yukon (if I remember correctly) or your BMW 440i purchases involved such rigor. By your own admission, your vehicle shipping tends to involve some impulsivity, so it sounds like maybe that was the case when you purchased those two vehicles as well.

Are you perhaps overthinking this EV conundrum a smidge? If you are open to an EV purchase, a cheap used one is a great way to test the waters. That's what I did a few years ago, and after having been convinced over that period, my current plan is to switch to a Mustang Mach E later this year.
I'm looking at a few possibilities. BMW i3 with range extender, Nissan Leaf and Chevy Bolt. I'm even debating plug in hybrid. I'm also concerned about increasing my electric bill dramatically. My winter electricity consumption is already $300-$500 a month. That's running 3 additional 1500W electric heaters in the basement and sunroom and vestibule. Summer month are about $100 with the AC at 72F.

You are spot on about getting a cheap used EV to test the waters. But even a cheap used ones are $12K. I have a 30Amp 110V RV outlet at the side of my house for my camping trailer and I don't even know what it will take to add a stage 2 charger.

EVs are coming, it's for certain. Eventually it will be a common item to a new built home like Pex plumping or double hung windows.

We are in that awkward stage of EV and gasoline. This is why we are seeing more of these discussions and even the traditional manufacturers are straddling the fence on this one.

I do like to try new things and I did have 2 new hybrid vehicles but the payment/insurance vs fuel savings wasn't quite what I hoped. Sure they were getting 57MPG but it cost me $500 a month (payment/insurance/fuel included)

if I could get away with $300-$350/month on an EV (everything included) I would be game to try.
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      02-19-2021, 09:49 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garyfried View Post
Where do you get a slightly used EV with the range that you need? An electric car may make some sense if you can charge it from your own solar panels. When you live in here and there I can't determine if solar would make sense for you. One other factor about electric is in the future you may have trouble finding a gas vehicle as most manufacturers are looking at making EVs.
Most of the major manufactures are saying that they will continue to make ICE until about 2035, that's 14 years from now; if you bought a new 2035 ICE and the average life expectancy of an ICE is 11+ years. So they will be around for a long time.
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      02-19-2021, 10:10 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
I'm looking at a few possibilities. BMW i3 with range extender, Nissan Leaf and Chevy Bolt. I'm even debating plug in hybrid. I'm also concerned about increasing my electric bill dramatically. My winter electricity consumption is already $300-$500 a month. That's running 3 additional 1500W electric heaters in the basement and sunroom and vestibule. Summer month are about $100 with the AC at 72F.

You are spot on about getting a cheap used EV to test the waters. But even a cheap used ones are $12K. I have a 30Amp 110V RV outlet at the side of my house for my camping trailer and I don't even know what it will take to add a stage 2 charger.

EVs are coming, it's for certain. Eventually it will be a common item to a new built home like Pex plumping or double hung windows.

We are in that awkward stage of EV and gasoline. This is why we are seeing more of these discussions and even the traditional manufacturers are straddling the fence on this one.

I do like to try new things and I did have 2 new hybrid vehicles but the payment/insurance vs fuel savings wasn't quite what I hoped. Sure they were getting 57MPG but it cost me $500 a month (payment/insurance/fuel included)

if I could get away with $300-$350/month on an EV (everything included)
I would be game to try.
I posted a link above that shows you what it will cost to charge your EV. Not sure why you wouldn't enter the miles and type of driving and see what it says it will cost you per year.

For the 110V 30 amp going to stage 2 charging will need to start over. Stage 2 is 220v so at your electric box you need to start from a dedicated 220 breaker with 220 wiring to wherever you want the outlet and a new plug and connector wire to the car. I doubt you will do this yourself so add this to the estimated total cost.

If I was running (3) 1500 watt space heaters all winter this is where I would be looking to save money. Not sure where you live but $300-$500 per month for electric in the Winter seems really high and I don't think there is a worse way to produce heat than resistance electric heat. I put a mini split in my attic (heat pump) for about $2k and it's running costs are minimal and it should last for 10 years.

I think $350 a month for car, maintenance, repair, charging, insurance isn't likely but it is a calculation and you should be able to figure it out yourself based on where you live (insurance quote, estimated car cost, estimated maintenance/repair, charging)
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      02-19-2021, 10:53 AM   #18
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if I could get away with $300-$350/month on an EV (everything included) I would be game to try.
I think it would be tough to get that low given the range you need for your daily drive.

It sounds like you've integrated your SUV into your life such that it's become invaluable to you. I think that's fantastic. It's going to be a long time before you can buy an EV that will do everything that vehicle does.

So, working within the budget you have decided on, now might not be the time for an EV. If your situation changes or if you decide to bump up the spend a bit in the future, I think a used EV would be a great purchase.
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      02-19-2021, 11:11 AM   #19
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Looks like all the EVs will cost me around $900-$1000 per year according to the USDE guide. That's only $200-300 a year less than what I was paying on my Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid.
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      02-19-2021, 11:12 AM   #20
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This post reads more like "why I shouldn't get an EV."

Don't.

If you don't like EVs and don't want one, no one is going to force you into buying one unless you live in CA 10 years from now. And frankly, no one is going to force you to live in CA. Believe you me.

IT IS NOT FOR EVERYONE.

But just because it's not for you, there's no need to try and convince anyone else it's not for them either. Guys. The revolution is here, and it's here faster than you realize. I made a post back in the mid 2000s proclaiming that everyone that says the manual transmission is dead is dead wrong, because people have been proclaiming the manual transmission to be dead for over 50 years. Fast forward 10 years, the manual transmission is DEAD.

While you may pry the keys (yes the MZ4 Coupe still has physical keys) out my dead fingers for both of my ICE cars, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that my current EV isn't superior in 90% of what I'd use a car for compared to any ICE I've ever owned in the past. I just need the 335D to cover the 5% of time I use it for LOOOOOOONG trips, and the MZ4 Coupe to cover the other 5% when I want to drive 9/10th on a race track.

But this is definitely one of those cases where I fully expect EVs to be a majority of vehicle sold within 15 years. Because all the market forces that are moving are all moving in EV's direction. Governmental pressure, environmental pressure, performance, pricing, and speed of improvement are all in EV's court.
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      02-19-2021, 11:26 AM   #21
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This post reads more like "why I shouldn't get an EV."
Did you read the thread? He's obviously seriously considered it.

Yes, there's some noise in other posts, but I think you're getting a bit worked up without cause. And it's also obvious EV growth is going to come swiftly over the next decade, but as you indicate the time is not right for everyone, yet.

(It's clear the MT market is in decline too, but it's not completely dead yet. We're not going to pull the thread off topic to debate that, though. )
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      02-19-2021, 11:45 AM   #22
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"IT IS NOT FOR EVERYONE."

But it's going to be for everyone.

"Governmental pressure, environmental pressure, performance, pricing, and speed of improvement are all in EV's court."

I drive 24k miles a year. It should be extremely beneficial to me. But the energy cost savings as compared to a hybrid (even if the price of the vehicle was removed) is not significant.

Believe me I've been trying to justify the reason to buy another vehicle. I'm actually not used to having just one.

If I could find a cost savings benefit to this equation, it would be a lot easier to convince the other people in my family that I should get one.
The only reasons I could come up with are that it's cool, quick, quiet, unique. But that's not going to win an argument.
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