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      05-22-2019, 01:55 PM   #1013
UncleWede
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I never said there wasn't issues or that there wouldn't be issues. Just because YOU see something or feel a certain way about it does that mean it is how is is?

Yes MN saw a massive influx of Somalis and Hmong over the last 30 years. Somehow my state has run budget surpluses for years and the unemployment rate has been under 4 for years as well. Right now around 3.2 And yes they all get a decent education if they want it.

I can find the links if you want, but I've just read stories about the birth rate in the US being the lowest in years and yes the need for immigrants to fill jobs. As I said earlier, you can look up stories about virulent anti-immigrant Texas lawmakers that don't do anything about it because they know their states economy is dependent on cheap labor. Same with Cali in regards to agriculture and service industries. Across the nation is is good or bad depending on the region.

I agree about the kids not wanting to do menial jobs and that is a problem. But, it is both the fault of Repubs and Dems as I said earlier as well. We just disagree on what is our biggest problem. As you said handing money over to Israel, what has that gotten us except to be entangled in trillion dollar wars. Add up the money we spent on the Iraq (and ISIS follow on war because of the Iraq war) war alone and compare that to money spent on illegals in the same time period. Like I said, at the most cynical at least we get something back from the illegals.
As should be more prevalent, we share a desire for improvement, and just need to discuss the placement of priorities. Would that our elected officials could have similar balanced discussions and not the rhetoric of us vs them.
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      05-22-2019, 01:57 PM   #1014
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
As should be more prevalent, we share a desire for improvement, and just need to discuss the placement of priorities. Would that our elected officials could have similar balanced discussions and not the rhetoric of us vs them.
Well said, thank you.
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      05-22-2019, 02:01 PM   #1015
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He asked whose numbers are those. It is not a defensible argument to say "if you can't believe X then I give up". That is no support at all, worse, it is what the Republicans accuse the Dems of doing all the time - stating something as fact with no support. Guess both sides aren't really different at all eh? Same tactics, just each side blinded to their own hypocrisy.

That's the thing though, I don't think anyone really judges themselves near as harsh as they judge others. All too ready to extend grace and mercy to ourselves when we make an error, but when someone else does the same thing - not a chance. I'm guilty of that too.

Why not just say that it was a guesstimate and explain some of the things you considered in arriving at that estimate (or link to the research where you read it if it wasn't a guesstimate)?

ok - to humor everyone - they are a guesstimate. Now I'll wait for someone to say whose guesstimate? Your guesstimate's basis? Guesstimates are useless?

I picked numbers at the extreme low end of the possible costs to make the point. But as usual people get real qualitative when they disagree in principle. I could have thrown out a Trump number then wait for someone to say it's more like $8,000 / yr. Then I'd be in a more defensible position?

Since I'm not in a negotiation I put out something that most with a concept of cost of running schools, medical services, food programs, shelters could somewhat buy in on.
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      05-22-2019, 02:12 PM   #1016
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Originally Posted by gjm120 View Post
ok - to humor everyone - they are a guesstimate. Now I'll wait for someone to say whose guesstimate? Your guesstimate's basis? Guesstimates are useless?

I picked numbers at the extreme low end of the possible costs to make the point. But as usual people get real qualitative when they disagree in principle. I could have thrown out a Trump number then wait for someone to say it's more like $8,000 / yr. Then I'd be in a more defensible position?

Since I'm not in a negotiation I put out something that most with a concept of cost of running schools, medical services, food programs, shelters could somewhat buy in on.
I upped it from your number and you got angry/stopped discussing it.
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      05-22-2019, 02:15 PM   #1017
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Originally Posted by gjm120 View Post
ok - to humor everyone - they are a guesstimate. Now I'll wait for someone to say whose guesstimate? Your guesstimate's basis? Guesstimates are useless?

I picked numbers at the extreme low end of the possible costs to make the point. But as usual people get real qualitative when they disagree in principle. I could have thrown out a Trump number then wait for someone to say it's more like $8,000 / yr. Then I'd be in a more defensible position?

Since I'm not in a negotiation I put out something that most with a concept of cost of running schools, medical services, food programs, shelters could somewhat buy in on.
Thank you!

And no one should ask whose - it is clearly your own.

You wouldn't be in a more defensible position had you gone with a Trumpesque number, because while you might have got down to your actual target number, no one would have known because you started out so high, and thus your argument again would not be defended well, because you'd be left coming down from the atmospheric heights you started from which would make your position look indefensible.

But hey, I'm just having fun - the real net cost would be interesting to nail down wouldn't it? I mean, there is likely some benefit derived from the cheap labour no? Even if it doesn't result in reduced prices to you, it means more profit in the hands of the owner, who then spends it on items that maybe you produce - trickle effect. So if you were to take the actual costs that an illegal would cost the government, which as a gross number I would guess is much higher than $4K per year, subtract an estimate of the benefits they contribute to arrive at a net cost or net benefit...be interesting. But that is the interesting part isn't it - while you try to quantify cost, I'm not stuck on saying it has to be a cost - it might be a net benefit?

Now I don't support illegal immigration. But I admittedly don't know if there is a net cost or net benefit from it. But either way, in an ideal world, immigration would be controlled and not illegal. Which would take changes to the immigration system to allow more in faster, but at least some system of checking the background and documenting.
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      05-22-2019, 02:46 PM   #1018
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I upped it from your number and you got angry/stopped discussing it.
I really missed that point and I'm not angry.

If everyone would look at this in $ and societal costs and avoid political hates and loves maybe something will get done. Like I said Trump spitting numbers that are on the edge (if not out of) probability polarizes the conversation.

I can't buy in though that if, and
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/ef11d0e...f-a2833da94e43

a $5.0 bn wall saves $12.0 bn year the $5.0 bn is better spent elsewhere IF the border is to be left porous.
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      05-22-2019, 05:27 PM   #1019
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Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
Even if it doesn't result in reduced prices to you, it means more profit in the hands of the owner, who then spends it on items that maybe you produce - trickle effect.
Wait, as a Prez candidate, you are going to try and sell me on trickle down economy??? You better stick to fixing the climate change thingy.
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      05-22-2019, 08:11 PM   #1020
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I donít necessarily disagree, but when you get your house in order donít you tackle the biggest problems first and ones that have zero benefit. Even some here and Republicans admit we need these workers and they give some benefit back. Again, 4.4 trillion dollar budget this year and 100 billion or most likely less is our biggest problem?
But the net effect of people coming here (illegally) cost us $8,000 each...63% of non citizen immigrants are on wellfare. I wouldj guess that amount illegals its higher than that.
When you look at overall cost/benefit its a higher number. The higher the worse..the less sense it makes. Even a dumb 'ol psu engineer can figure that out.
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      05-23-2019, 12:05 PM   #1021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I don't necessarily disagree, but when you get your house in order don't you tackle the biggest problems first and ones that have zero benefit. Even some here and Republicans admit we need these workers and they give some benefit back. Again, 4.4 trillion dollar budget this year and 100 billion or most likely less is our biggest problem?
But the net effect of people coming here (illegally) cost us $8,000 each...63% of non citizen immigrants are on wellfare. I wouldj guess that amount illegals its higher than that.
When you look at overall cost/benefit its a higher number. The higher the worse..the less sense it makes. Even a dumb 'ol psu engineer can figure that out.
$8000? 63%? Source?
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      05-23-2019, 12:24 PM   #1022
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Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
But the net effect of people coming here (illegally) cost us $8,000 each...63% of non citizen immigrants are on wellfare. I wouldj guess that amount illegals its higher than that.
When you look at overall cost/benefit its a higher number. The higher the worse..the less sense it makes. Even a dumb 'ol psu engineer can figure that out.
I went ahead and looked up the source.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/immi...bles-but-arent

or

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/r...h-25-000-in-ny


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa...gration_Reform

Federation for American Immigration Reform
Doesn't seem like a good organization.
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      05-23-2019, 04:06 PM   #1023
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$8000? 63%? Source?
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/r...h-25-000-in-ny

https://cis.org/Report/63-NonCitizen...lfare-Programs
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      05-23-2019, 04:30 PM   #1024
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Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
$8000? 63%? Source?
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/r...h-25-000-in-ny

https://cis.org/Report/63-NonCitizen...lfare-Programs
I already provided the link. Not good people.
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