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      11-13-2023, 12:23 PM   #23
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I wanted to become a member of the Pcar family but 'un/fortunately', I still place importance in *value*, and -for me- it didn't make sense when I was shopping new to get a Cayman w lower power but almost $20K(!) more vs my Z4 (and this was back in the day, I don't know the price craziness now).

Porsche is a funny brand because their icon will always be the 911, even though the Cayman is the better driver's car. For unfair reasons, some other ppl will look at those who bought the latter as supposedly not being able to afford the 'real' Porsche (which is nonsense) and the company itself will invariably make sure that it doesn't step on the 'hallowed' 911 by intentionally keeping it underpowered and not to its full potential, which is really, really aggravating. All this affects how some ppl want to be viewed by others, and they don't even really bother w what is actually the better driver's car but rather the image of a certain model and the sound...I had an old thread where a lot ppl would choose a wicked-sounding car that handled like crap instead of an awesome handling car that sounded bad, which is just totally missing the mark if one claims to be a true driving enthusiast.
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      11-13-2023, 12:30 PM   #24
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The real kicker with the 911 is the 2+2 element. All other 2+2 are legit GT cars, not sports cars. I'd say 80% of the time I am out in mine the kids are out back.
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      11-13-2023, 01:20 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSTYLE View Post
I've had the opportunity to drive multiple Porsches in my time including: 911 TT, Carrera 4S, Panemera, Cayman, Boxster, Cayenne and Macan. I have friends and family who love the brand!
I have and will always feel that they are severely overpriced as a brand. Mostly because of their stark, bland, interiors. And exteriors that barely change. Sure they drive well, some are very fast, and there's a certain poshness. For every model they have, I'd take a less expensive brand that would either provide more curbside appeal and equal performance. Even their Hyper cars I'd choose Ferrari or McLaren over.
That's my opinion.
Agreed completely. Unless you're in a 2RS or one of their special cars they're pretty ho-hum with a huge markup for no reason
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      11-13-2023, 07:12 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSTYLE View Post
I've had the opportunity to drive multiple Porsches in my time including: 911 TT, Carrera 4S, Panemera, Cayman, Boxster, Cayenne and Macan. I have friends and family who love the brand!
I have and will always feel that they are severely overpriced as a brand. Mostly because of their stark, bland, interiors. And exteriors that barely change. Sure they drive well, some are very fast, and there's a certain poshness. For every model they have, I'd take a less expensive brand that would either provide more curbside appeal and equal performance. Even their Hyper cars I'd choose Ferrari or McLaren over.
That's my opinion.

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Originally Posted by x622 View Post
Agreed completely. Unless you're in a 2RS or one of their special cars they're pretty ho-hum with a huge markup for no reason
I don't believe these comments come from first hand experience in current model Panameras or Cayennes with full club leather interior, or custom interiors with deviated stitching, Race Tex or houndstooth. These are expressive, luxury interiors.
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      11-13-2023, 07:48 PM   #27
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Tbh this makes me appreciate my dad's 2020 Macan S even more. Outside the limits that car drives very similarly to the 718 while having a proper 6 cyl engine, all for $75k at the time. If I roll with the Porsche it'll certainly be a used example, as the new 4 cyl variants of these cars are $30k overpriced in my book.

And again will definitely take a hard look at the M2, Giulia QV, and maybe Supra. While these cars are heavier, they're less clinical, more "fun" to me, and actually feel worth their asking price.
Had several years with Alfa, the Gulia is impressive however I'd be inclined towards the M2 for the dealer network and serviceability if that's a factor.
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      11-13-2023, 08:58 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by chassis View Post
I don't believe these comments come from first hand experience in current model Panameras or Cayennes with full club leather interior, or custom interiors with deviated stitching, Race Tex or houndstooth. These are expressive, luxury interiors.
And those are even MORE expensive. So... Nope. I still stand by what I said.
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      11-14-2023, 06:35 AM   #29
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unlike you, first time I ever drove a porsche I was blown away and haven't been able to find a substitute

I had a manual e86 3.0Si coupe at the time and the porsche was a PDK 2013 Boxster S that I took for a test drive when I was considering ordering a 2014 Cayman S

I grinned driving that boxster like I never had before and ordered the cayman, stripper manual S

the cayman was the most fun I've ever had driving a car

I get bored of cars and so have tried to find something else to give me the high I had when I first had that 2014 Cayman S

10 years later and after test driving and owning lots of different cars (as my multiple what next posts attest to) I'm still in basically the same car

a naturally aspirated flat six though is key to the experience, for me at least, try one of those and let us know how it went
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      11-14-2023, 07:56 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baege View Post
a naturally aspirated flat six though is key to the experience, for me at least, try one of those and let us know how it went
Million times this. In the age of blown V8's, 500hp sedans and torque monsters, the 350 to 385 HP NA 6 that's a bit rev happy is the equivalent of the playful 150HP 4 cylinder sports cars back in the day. My big issue with Porsche and a proper sports car is you need good roads, rough roads unsettle the car and it bucks about, need to drive a solid 30 minutes from here to get a good bit of road.

Last edited by Alfisti; 11-14-2023 at 08:38 AM..
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      11-14-2023, 09:46 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baege View Post
unlike you, first time I ever drove a porsche I was blown away and haven't been able to find a substitute

I had a manual e86 3.0Si coupe at the time and the porsche was a PDK 2013 Boxster S that I took for a test drive when I was considering ordering a 2014 Cayman S

I grinned driving that boxster like I never had before and ordered the cayman, stripper manual S

the cayman was the most fun I've ever had driving a car

I get bored of cars and so have tried to find something else to give me the high I had when I first had that 2014 Cayman S

10 years later and after test driving and owning lots of different cars (as my multiple what next posts attest to) I'm still in basically the same car

a naturally aspirated flat six though is key to the experience, for me at least, try one of those and let us know how it went
I remember driving a 2014 Cayman S at that time and was blown away by that car. My issue isn't with Porsche as a whole, it's with 4 cyl Porsches and the gall Porsche has to charge what they do for these lackluster motors. I'd love to scoop up a clean example of a 981 S.
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      11-14-2023, 11:24 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post
I don't believe these comments come from first hand experience in current model Panameras or Cayennes with full club leather interior, or custom interiors with deviated stitching, Race Tex or houndstooth. These are expressive, luxury interiors.
Most folks cannot see beyond BMW, it's their North Star. We're on a BMW forum afterall so this isn't terribly surprising. If folks are challenging the Porsche value proposition (which I don't agree with btw), what about BMW? It's a shell of what it used to be and the grift is apparent. Their cars have gotten very expensive in short order and what are you getting for that? You're getting a bloated, overweight automobile, with an obscene and unnecessary amount of technology with a severely compromised sensory experience. They're hardly making the ultimate driving machine, not even close. It's wild to me the G80 M3 Comp is touching $90K decently optioned and that's without carbon buckets and ceramic brakes. The entry level X3 moderately optioned is around $60K. Even through evolution Porsche has maintained the integrity of the brand. With Porsche at least you know exactly what you're getting, and if you don't it's clearly not for you.
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      11-14-2023, 12:34 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Million times this. In the age of blown V8's, 500hp sedans and torque monsters, the 350 to 385 HP NA 6 that's a bit rev happy is the equivalent of the playful 150HP 4 cylinder sports cars back in the day.
Agreed. I'm over having high HP cars. I want connection and fun. "Sounds and looks fast" is completely fine with me. My 450hp M235 is too fast to have much fun on the street as 1st gear is usually tire smoke and 2nd can get sketchy through turns as the torque can overwhelm the tires. My 265hp Cayman is just about perfect and can put all the power down and launches like my prior WRX.
With some simple exhaust mods which add 10whp/15wtq, the Cayman's power will be just perfect. I've had a number of quick and fast cars and the one car I miss the most was my 106hp 1990 Honda CRX Si. The Cayman fills that void.

I agree that Porsches are too expensive, but you can get one hell of a driving experience by buying a used base or S model 987.2 or 981 for $30k-45k. It's more car stock than 99% of the drivers can use on the street or track. Plus, these generation cars are surprisingly easy to work on yourself, especially the Caymans. You sit in the trunk while working on the engine from the top, easily get to most of the front of the engine from the interior, and a large amount of the engine is accessible from the bottom. I can have top and front engine covers off in 5 minutes. It's also damn easy to remove the transmission or even the motor itself as well assuming you have a lift.
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Last edited by XutvJet; 11-14-2023 at 12:39 PM..
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      11-14-2023, 12:40 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post
I don't believe these comments come from first hand experience in current model Panameras or Cayennes with full club leather interior, or custom interiors with deviated stitching, Race Tex or houndstooth. These are expressive, luxury interiors.
Uhh, I had a TTS and I ordered a Cayenne Turbo GT. I'm very familiar with their mediocre interiors.
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      11-14-2023, 01:00 PM   #35
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The cost of a Porsche is hard to judge, what drives the price a lot is the lack of depreciation. A new study was released today that ranked cars from ones that hold value the best to the worst and number 1 ... .911.

So I paid a horrible amount of money for a 2009 911 with 65K KM ($68K CDN) but I know I can sell it for that or even more 18 months later.
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      11-14-2023, 01:16 PM   #36
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You lost me when you lied about the 718 being ten years old. You sound bitter!

Better stick you your Alfa's
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      11-14-2023, 01:43 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post
I don't believe these comments come from first hand experience in current model Panameras or Cayennes with full club leather interior, or custom interiors with deviated stitching, Race Tex or houndstooth. These are expressive, luxury interiors.
Honestly I never even considered Porsche because I hated their interiors soooo much. The 2019 Cayenne and I think maybe a couple of years earlier for the Panamera are the only time IMO the interiors were acceptable.

Still to this day the boxster and cayman interiors are hideous IMO. The newer 911s and such have much nicer interiors now.

As for the 718... I test drove a few CPO ones (would never pay the premium for a new one or deal with getting on wait lists etc). They weren't bad... but they just didn't feel worth $60k+ to me. I drove a base and an S with PDK back to back and honestly I didn't feel the S added THAT much. However both felt fine, I prefer NA engines all day but these did not feel bad. I later drove a base manual and I feel that while I prefer the manual it made the engine much more laggy or whatever you want to call it.

Ultimately I couldn't see the $60k+ in value and went with an ND2 Miata for less than half the price.
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      11-14-2023, 02:25 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by sspade View Post
You lost me when you lied about the 718 being ten years old. You sound bitter!

Better stick you your Alfa's
The current Boxster/Cayman bodystyle dates back to 2013, it's the engine which got downgraded to the 4 cyl for the base and S variants around 2017. The rest of the car is the same.
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      11-14-2023, 03:01 PM   #39
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You lost me when you lied about the 718 being ten years old. You sound bitter!

Better stick you your Alfa's
Me?
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      11-14-2023, 03:42 PM   #40
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These always are in top 10 sportscar tests, regardless of engine. You have to embrace the handling, nimble-ness and idea of it all. Its a lot closer to the old 911s in terms of size/space etc.

I sat in a friends and wasnt blown away, the interior in my camaro was better, but thats not why you get a cayman. It’s because of the handling, steering and experience. These are smaller track weapons, so nimble and so good. Theyll make you feel like a hero on the track.

If you are interested in what happens between the turns, they are definitely not the car for you. It sounds like the OP with the M2 is right where they should be.
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      11-14-2023, 03:52 PM   #41
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Me?
I'm sure he didn't mean you cuz everyone and their grandmas here know you bought a 911. 😅

I am curious who the heck he's referring to though.
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      11-14-2023, 04:39 PM   #42
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I can't believe anyone buys a 4cyl Porsche. Porsche IS the flat 6. Find a well looked after previous gen with a proper engine.
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      11-14-2023, 04:46 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark_Kent View Post
Most folks cannot see beyond BMW, it's their North Star. We're on a BMW forum afterall so this isn't terribly surprising. If folks are challenging the Porsche value proposition (which I don't agree with btw), what about BMW? It's a shell of what it used to be and the grift is apparent. Their cars have gotten very expensive in short order and what are you getting for that? You're getting a bloated, overweight automobile, with an obscene and unnecessary amount of technology with a severely compromised sensory experience. They're hardly making the ultimate driving machine, not even close. It's wild to me the G80 M3 Comp is touching $90K decently optioned and that's without carbon buckets and ceramic brakes. The entry level X3 moderately optioned is around $60K. Even through evolution Porsche has maintained the integrity of the brand. With Porsche at least you know exactly what you're getting, and if you don't it's clearly not for you.
Agree. If price and Porsche are used in the same sentence, the shopper is barking up the wrong tree. Porsche will never “make sense” on a price basis. You want it or you don’t. Same with any car at the Porsche level and above: Ferrari, Aston, Lambo, Bentley, Rolls, McLaren etc. At these price levels it’s not a practical math equation, it’s an emotional impulse.
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      11-14-2023, 04:57 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Agree. If price and Porsche are used in the same sentence, the shopper is barking up the wrong tree. Porsche will never “make sense” on a price basis. You want it or you don’t. Same with any car at the Porsche level and above: Ferrari, Aston, Lambo, Bentley, Rolls, McLaren etc. At these price levels it’s not a practical math equation, it’s an emotional impulse.
Not a fair comparison IMO. All those other brands you mentioned don't make anything that comes close price wise to ANYTHING BMW and the like make. On the other hand most of what Porsche sells IS within the price range of other luxury brands. Now if Porsche ONLY made 911 GT cars then I could see your point.
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