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      05-08-2022, 10:34 PM   #133
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speaking of 'tax', I can't wait to see the formulas the Feds/States come up with to offset the per gal tax on road fuel
That has already begun. In the state of GA you pay about $275 annually for an optional Alternative Fuel Vehicle (AFV) license plate. You're not required to purchase the plate but it does come with some benefits.
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      05-09-2022, 01:59 AM   #134
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anyone here have experience with an e-golf ? thinking about getting one for a beater but curious as to real world range in it. my commute is 70 miles/day
My buddy whom I bought my E90 from has one... he LOVES it! Range isn't great, but he doesn't drive far and level 1 charges at home. The 2019 model with the better battery is the one to get. He lives in Bend, so it does get cold, but non-issue for him. Controls are regular Golf controls, so no touchscreens. Everything is knobs and levers, which is great.

Real world driving is very fast with the instant torque. Good build quality.
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      05-10-2022, 10:20 AM   #135
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I'm going to preface my comments that I was (really my father was) an early adoptor of the electric garden tractor in 1972. You can Google on "GE Electrak" to save me the time describing it. But in short, the machine was 50 years ahead of its time and no manufacturer has yet come to market with an equivalent. So I'm quite familiar with EV. On the automotive side, I've driven the Chevy Bolt, Chevy Volt, and have passenger time in both the Model 3 and Model Y. And I actually own an Electric golfcart, Clubcar.

So neat, some EVs are fast. 3.2 seconds to 60 MPH. Big deal, in real world operational terms what does that get you? Regular Model 3, the one for $40K, it's a 5 second car, okay still faster than most ICE, but it's mostly gearing on the ICE side; engineers see mid 5-seconds to mid 6-seconds cars as good enough for street use. I see these claims to EV 0 - 60 times akin to the Japanese sportbike market of the late 1980's thru mid 1990's. I had one of those sportbikes, yup it was fun to launch it every once in awhile, but it gets old in short order, because no one else is as fast and really no one else cares.

The Model 3 at cruising speed is louder than my well worn 2006 E90. The Model Y is about the same. The Model 3 chassis lacks good isolation engineering. Yup, sure is neat to get pushed back in the seat in near silence, at the flat torque curve saves the need to shift gears, but again it gets old. Race a few cars a few times off a light and you beat them every time, WOW! Then what do you do next? And it took a lot of skill... mash the pedal and let the computer lay down the torque. Try it on a sport bike, THAT takes skill, and keeps it interesting because attaining that speed takes skill, experience, and effort. That's why drag racing ICE is fun, because it's a personal challenge everytime.

While you like the fact you can charge at home in 5 seconds (not really), ICE people don't need to charge at home because they can recharge 400 miles of range in 5 minutes, practically anywhere any time they want. You can make all the arguments against the gas station all you want, but people simply find it convenient. Waiting for 20 minutes to recover 120 miles of range they see as inconvenient.
I am not here to change your mind, but your post does sound bias and that's fine

Just a few thoughts with the backdrop that I am not an EV fanatic, in fact I still own an E92 M3 alongside my Tesla because I love it, but my point is the average gas car feels like a piece of crap in comparison for daily driving.

There is no way a Model Y is as loud as any version of any E90, at any time. The Y has double pane glass all around, I am all for different opinions but this isn't an opinion, the Y is dead quiet and on top of that doesn't have an engine making any noise.


I actually think the advantage of an EV and its powertrain characteristics is the instant response, and torque. I have never once did a 0-60 run in my Y because it is way outside of the point. 30-50 MPH, 45-70, merging, using the accelerator pedal, engaginegthe power, feeling the car is an extension of your mind when you hit the "gas" is the point because there is 0 delay. I agree completely 0-60 in 3-4 seconds is gets old fast, but instant tq where there is 0 delay is incredibly satisfying and going back to an ICE car after driving it feels like you just went backwards in time.

20 minutes in most supercharger stations gets you more like 150-250 miles.


I guess you can say what you want about gas stations but for most EV owners who charge at home, they have to wait ~15 minutes longer a few times a year, but 98% of the time I never have to wait. I don't see how this point can be argued, it just comes down to math. When you charge at home you will be less inconvenienced many times over compared to a normal gas commuter car. Anyway, this isn't a real point that should be discussed or be a selling point either way, at this point you either are open to EV's or you are not and some people have inherent bias towards them.

I also agree racing a gas car is fun, hell my E92 M3 is 6mt. I am the last person who gives a crap about 0-60 times but I do give a crap about having a car that is (way) more powerful, (way) faster, more reliable and (way) more efficient. That's the bottom line for me, and why EV's are objectively better.

Those things don't mean it is a silver bullet, or they will be liked by everyone.

When asked for advice by anyone over the age of 60 I would strongly advise them not to get an electric car, they aren't ready for it and won't adapt. I find my mom, my FIL/MIL, people in their 60's 70's have already made up their minds. My mom asked me, what if you run out of battery? I said, what if you run out of gas? I am confused what's your point?

The difference is my car will tell me specifically (flash warnings on the screen) how much charge I need to get to a supercharger station, will dynamically warn me as I am headed there to slow down and specifically say "stay below 60 MPH to arrive with a charge" and pilot me directly there, where your gas car will just float along blindly with one indicator, a low gas light.

Critical thinking is a lost art ( not directed at you) but the arguments I heard from older family member after I got this car was unreal. The car will get set on fire randomly. What if you run out of charge? How will you replace the battery in four years? What if you can't wait an hour to charge? It's like they dont want to know the real answers
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      05-10-2022, 10:30 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Piper1 View Post
For those that do own EVs on this thread and charge from home, Iíve wondered whatís the comparison on the home electric bill of pre ev to owning one? Just one thing that Iíve always wondered.

The Tesla app has a feature to analyze charge stats. You can customize the kWh on the app to make sure your costs are accurate. For me in my town, it is $0.13
per kWh and here is my last rolling 30 days. I work from home and drive roughly 550 miles a month and here is my cost to charge. It is negligible, but here it is.

View post on imgur.com
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      05-10-2022, 10:47 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by neilum View Post

20 minutes in most supercharger stations gets you more like 150-250 miles.


I guess you can say what you want about gas stations but for most EV owners who charge at home, they have to wait ~15 minutes longer a few times a year, but 98% of the time I never have to wait. I don't see how this point can be argued, it just comes down to math. When you charge at home you will be less inconvenienced many times over compared to a normal gas commuter car. Anyway, this isn't a real point that should be discussed or be a selling point either way, at this point you either are open to EV's or you are not and some people have inherent bias towards them.
I'm not against EV, but I'm also not 100% for EV.

I have considered EV for a daily, particularly for the girlfriend. She would be able to charge at home and rarely ever goes more than 150 miles from home. For her it could make sense considering she would rarely, if ever, have to worry about finding a charging station. BUT, even after doing the math it would still cost her more than her current gas powered car simply because the cost of a quality EV. Maybe if something happens and she has no option other than getting a new vehicle we will look at them.

For me, EV does not make sense. The need to tow, the times I am in the sticks and far from anyplace that has charging stations for multiple days, long trips sometimes through the middle of nowhere. Even with the availability of charging stations along routes it adds considerable time to a 1000+ mile road trip. I get 600 miles to a tank, I dont have to stop often.

I think EV has is place and has been getting much better as far as affordability, but I also think they have a ways to go still to be a good option for your average household. Longer lasting batteries, cheaper replacement costs, etc. Those things may not be much of a concern to the majority of folks on these forums and their bank accounts, but for median income families it's still a big concern.
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      05-10-2022, 11:02 AM   #138
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The big disconnect that I keep seeing is the owners promoting EVs often concede that while they enjoy them, they agree they do not work for everyone's lifestyle/use-case. But the government and auto companies are headed toward a path where there will be no other choice but EVs in the near future. Objectively (a dangerous word, I know), I think everyone can acknowledge the merits of an EV over an ICE vehicle. But what are the people that can't charge at home supposed to do when the infrastructure for mobile charging is going to be inadequate to support the future (massive) supply of EVs?

By 2025, we are going to have more EV options than you can believe. Do you seriously think automakers are planning on pumping these things out with the hope that the public will buy them? Absolutely not. They are making them because they know customers are not going to be given a choice. A large portion of millennials, and virtually all generations thereafter have given up on the possibility of home ownership because they are completely priced out of the market and can't compete with large corporations and "boomers" paying cash for houses sight unseen. Where will these people charge their cars? I know it's a very complex problem, but it all just seems so poorly thought out...
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      05-10-2022, 11:12 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by ///d View Post
I'm not against EV, but I'm also not 100% for EV.

I have considered EV for a daily, particularly for the girlfriend. She would be able to charge at home and rarely ever goes more than 150 miles from home. For her it could make sense considering she would rarely, if ever, have to worry about finding a charging station. BUT, even after doing the math it would still cost her more than her current gas powered car simply because the cost of a quality EV. Maybe if something happens and she has no option other than getting a new vehicle we will look at them.

For me, EV does not make sense. The need to tow, the times I am in the sticks and far from anyplace that has charging stations for multiple days, long trips sometimes through the middle of nowhere. Even with the availability of charging stations along routes it adds considerable time to a 1000+ mile road trip. I get 600 miles to a tank, I dont have to stop often.

I think EV has is place and has been getting much better as far as affordability, but I also think they have a ways to go still to be a good option for your average household. Longer lasting batteries, cheaper replacement costs, etc. Those things may not be much of a concern to the majority of folks on these forums and their bank accounts, but for median income families it's still a big concern.
^This, affordability is the big problem here, I openly admit I am in the median income families, with a massive bill for keeping my kid in premium education.

Majority of the forum maybe massively comfortable and live in a detatched home with the ability to install a charger at home, this forum however, is hardly representative of the real world where most car buyer will buy what suits their need, their parking arrangements, and budget.

There is the increasing condo dwellers in the city (continuing fight against urban sprawl is helping this, least up here) and those who live in the old parts of today's metropolis that have to park on the city streets. Few have the ability to install a charger at their parking spot.

EV has its place today, and will continue to, and personally I can see myself buying one for the wife for the weekend road trip/daily school run car, but the bottom line is, significant adaptation remains far into the future without a massive increase in infrastructure investments, while car makers have to make these EVs more accessible, better able to adapt to winter cold, rather than just pushing them out like hotcakes
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      05-10-2022, 11:29 AM   #140
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The big disconnect that I keep seeing is the owners promoting EVs often concede that while they enjoy them, they agree they do not work for everyone's lifestyle/use-case. But the government and auto companies are headed toward a path where there will be no other choice but EVs in the near future. Objectively (a dangerous word, I know), I think everyone can acknowledge the merits of an EV over an ICE vehicle. But what are the people that can't charge at home supposed to do when the infrastructure for mobile charging is going to be inadequate to support the future (massive) supply of EVs?

By 2025, we are going to have more EV options than you can believe. Do you seriously think automakers are planning on pumping these things out with the hope that the public will buy them? Absolutely not. They are making them because they know customers are not going to be given a choice. A large portion of millennials, and virtually all generations thereafter have given up on the possibility of home ownership because they are completely priced out of the market and can't compete with large corporations and "boomers" paying cash for houses sight unseen. Where will these people charge their cars? I know it's a very complex problem, but it all just seems so poorly thought out...
What do you consider near future?

I don't think we're going to see an EV only future for another 20-30 years.

By that time the challenges that exist today are likely to be addressed or mitigated to the point they are minor inconveniences at best.

I'm a bit perplexed why folks don't see the RAPID advancements that have already been made in a relatively short time frame with in the last decade.

Give it another 2-3 decades and you all still think we'll be facing these same challenges?
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      05-10-2022, 11:32 AM   #141
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What do you consider near future?

I don't think we're going to see an EV only future for another 20-30 years.

By that time the challenges that exist today are likely to be addressed or mitigated to the point they are minor inconveniences at best.

I'm a bit perplexed why folks don't see the RAPID advancements that have already been made in a relatively short time frame with in the last decade.

Give it another 2-3 decades and you all still think we'll be facing these same challenges?
I forget what it's called, but there is a thing out there that all manufactures are required to be at something like 80% of new vehicle sales are EV by 2030 I think it was. I dont remember the details on it, if it was a set in stone thing, etc.
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      05-10-2022, 11:36 AM   #142
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Give it another 2-3 decades and you all still think we'll be facing these same challenges?
Yes, because the challenges isn't limited to car manufactuers on their own, a LOT of other stakeholders have to keep up if we have any shot at dealing of these challenges within 2-3 decades.

Government powers change constantly, local powers change constantly. Hell billionaires personal goals change as well. Environmental change is already occurring, and the last one is the fickle beast here.

Are we still around in 2-3 decades talking about EV or will we be talking about surviving, no one really knows.
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      05-10-2022, 11:39 AM   #143
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in 2-3 decades we will have a new issue if we don't come up with a new battery technology. We don't have the Li to support even the US being 80% EV, let alone the world.
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      05-10-2022, 11:44 AM   #144
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I forget what it's called, but there is a thing out there that all manufactures are required to be at something like 80% of new vehicle sales are EV by 2030 I think it was. I dont remember the details on it, if it was a set in stone thing, etc.
lol...yeah that's not accurate. Biden signed an EO to target new vehicle sales for zero emissions vehicles (includes hybrids and plug in hybrids) at 50% by 2030. Source

We all know how "in stone" EOs are.

So assuming they can even get close to hitting 50% new sales, the remaining 50% will be a slow smolder. 100% EVs will be a challenge and, again...probably another 20-30 years out....if it ever even fully gets there.

More likely we'll see hybrids or plug in hybrids continuing well into the future.
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      05-10-2022, 11:45 AM   #145
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in 2-3 decades we will have a new issue if we don't come up with a new battery technology. We don't have the Li to support even the US being 80% EV, let alone the world.
We definitely will.

The demand for lower cost, higher volume will absolutely produce new innovations.

The alarmism requires you do some serious suspension of disbelief.
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      05-10-2022, 11:54 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by ga9213 View Post
What do you consider near future?

I don't think we're going to see an EV only future for another 20-30 years.

By that time the challenges that exist today are likely to be addressed or mitigated to the point they are minor inconveniences at best.

I'm a bit perplexed why folks don't see the RAPID advancements that have already been made in a relatively short time frame with in the last decade.

Give it another 2-3 decades and you all still think we'll be facing these same challenges?
I consider the near future 10 years. We are at least 20 years away (at our current rate of implementation) from having the infrastructure required to support 80% EV adoption in the US.

The real problem is there are so many things that need to happen in parallel and require immense coordination and strategic planning. Things that are just too far outside the scope of what most governments and corporations are able to manage on this scale.

Governments don't care about what's reasonable or realistic; just what yields the most favorable optics and makes lobbyists happy. Corporations don't care about what's best for the environment or the customer; just what yields the biggest return as quickly as possible. Make these two parties work together and how do you think this is going to end?
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      05-10-2022, 11:57 AM   #147
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lol...yeah that's not accurate. Biden signed an EO to target new vehicle sales for zero emissions vehicles (includes hybrids and plug in hybrids) at 50% by 2030. Source

We all know how "in stone" EOs are.

So assuming they can even get close to hitting 50% new sales, the remaining 50% will be a slow smolder. 100% EVs will be a challenge and, again...probably another 20-30 years out....if it ever even fully gets there.

More likely we'll see hybrids or plug in hybrids continuing well into the future.
Yeah I couldn't remember what it was, so I dug up my post on it about a year ago. Europe was pushing for all new vehicle sales to be EV globally by 2035. I then went down the rabbit hole and learned at the rate of lithium demand to support this we would deplete our global lithium reserves in less than 30 years not taking into consideration additional demand for replacement batteries and such.
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      05-10-2022, 11:59 AM   #148
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I consider the near future 10 years. We are at least 20 years away (at our current rate of implementation) from having the infrastructure required to support 80% EV adoption in the US.

The real problem is there are so many things that need to happen in parallel and require immense coordination and strategic planning. Things that are just too far outside the scope of what most governments and corporations are able to manage on this scale.

Governments don't care about what's reasonable or realistic; just what yields the most favorable optics and makes lobbyists happy. Corporations don't care about what's best for the environment or the customer; just what yields the biggest return as quickly as possible. Make these two parties work together and how do you think this is going to end?
Well, that's good then because no one (that I've seen) is targeting anything faster than this.

But you're right we definitely are going to hit road blocks along the way with respect to government because one side has made it a political position to hinder the advancement of the adoption. That's a pity.
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      05-10-2022, 12:01 PM   #149
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Yeah I couldn't remember what it was, so I dug up my post on it about a year ago. Europe was pushing for all new vehicle sales to be EV globally by 2035. I then went down the rabbit hole and learned at the rate of lithium demand to support this we would deplete our global lithium reserves in less than 30 years not taking into consideration additional demand for replacement batteries and such.
Does the source you found for this account for extraction of lithium from our oceans?
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      05-10-2022, 12:01 PM   #150
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We definitely will.

The demand for lower cost, higher volume will absolutely produce new innovations.

The alarmism requires you do some serious suspension of disbelief.
I had read they have promising new tech thats also better for the environment, but lifespan is unknown yet and not at mass production capabilities.
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      05-10-2022, 12:04 PM   #151
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Does the source you found for this account for extraction of lithium from our oceans?
Not sure. Everything was just "global". In 2016 it was estimated there was 360-some years worth of lithium, but with the increase of demand doubling by 2020, and then adding EV on top of that, it brought it down to less than 30 years.
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      05-10-2022, 12:07 PM   #152
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Not sure. Everything was just "global". In 2016 it was estimated there was 360-some years worth of lithium, but with the increase of demand doubling by 2020, and then adding EV on top of that, it brought it down to less than 30 years.
What was the source if you don't mind me asking? Is there a chance that there could be some bias?

It's estimated there's 5,000 times the amount of lithium in the ocean as could be found on land. I'm also skeptical that they would be accounting for the reality that lithium will be recycled.
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      05-10-2022, 12:30 PM   #153
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What was the source if you don't mind me asking? Is there a chance that there could be some bias?

It's estimated there's 5,000 times the amount of lithium in the ocean as could be found on land. I'm also skeptical that they would be accounting for the reality that lithium will be recycled.
It was last June or July, I have no idea what the source was anymore.

From what I understand recycling Li is very expensive and requires massive amounts of heat, and it costs less just to produce new ones. Just a quick Google on that says currently only 5% of lithium is recycled in the US.
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      05-10-2022, 12:32 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by ///d View Post
It was last June or July, I have no idea what the source was anymore.

From what I understand recycling Li is very expensive and requires massive amounts of heat, and it costs less just to produce new ones. Just a quick Google on that says currently only 5% of lithium is recycled in the US.
Again...this is all CURRENT state. There will be a point where the technology for recycling is more efficient and cheaper and will cross the threshold of being cheaper to recycle than to mine new lithium.

none of these current stats are going to be relevant in the future. This should be self explanatory.
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