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06-23-2022, 03:03 PM | #309 | |
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I don't have an EV so I don't have first-hand experience, but how much does it cost to charge it now? $10 for 200 miles of range? Let's assume that. $20 for 400 miles of range. Currently, gas is $5.40 per gallon and I get about 24 mpg combined, which is about $80 per 400 miles. So even if electric costs doubled, it's cheaper. Gas prices are only going to get higher as OPEC isn't planning on being charitable so as electricity costs go up, so will gas prices. It's already $10 a gallon in some countries and we're headed that way in NA. $15-$20 per gallon is the future. It's also a tricky comparison, but electricity will remain cheaper until we're able to reach a level of gas consumption that would make us far less reliant on fuel from OPEC. Plenty of opportunity for energy companies to make money. Higher cost for charging EVs (e.g. road taxes included) compared to other residential power, higher price to charge during peak hours, charging restrictions during peak demand (e.g. energy saving meters for AC).
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06-23-2022, 03:10 PM | #310 | |
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24K purchase 53 MPG 15,000 miles per year 283 gallons per year @$4.50 = $1273 per year @$2.50 = $707 Per year vs:, $50K EV that runs on free electricity: @$4.50 = $1273 = 20 years and 295,000 miles @$2.50 = $707 = 35 years and 525,000 miles I looked up the average cost to drive a model 3, ~$0.03 per mile, so $450 per year at 15,000 miles. Using that figure, breakeven is at 97 years and 1.5 million miles compared to $2.50 gas in a Corolla hybrid. Hybrids aren't that bad to drive, I put 180K on one from 2009 to 2018, and it only cost $4k more on the purchase price over the regular base engine. It has more horse power and lots more torque too. |
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06-23-2022, 03:11 PM | #311 | |
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06-23-2022, 03:17 PM | #312 | |
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The grid isn't ready for what people want it to do. It could probably adapt if we were wiling to forego air-conditioning though, so there are some options... We are still waiting for night time solar to be invented. Until then, we aren't ready. |
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06-23-2022, 03:29 PM | #313 | |
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"Current record gas prices" is only of you look at the last 10 years. June 2008 gas prices were a bit over $5.30 per gallon, adjusted for inflation. 10 years ago, EVs were far more expensive to operate and we'll never see more than a few thousand examples on the road. 10 years from now, it'll be cheaper than today.
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06-23-2022, 03:50 PM | #314 | |
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We have run out of rivers to dam (and are actively removing some Dam's already), no one wants Nuclear, and the sun doesn't always shine and the wind doesn't always blow. Where will we get all these new watts from? |
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06-23-2022, 04:49 PM | #315 | |
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It's not like we're at the limits of capacity for different sources of electricity. I'm sure you're familiar with - https://www.eia.gov/electricity/mont...?t=epmt_6_07_a
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06-23-2022, 05:08 PM | #316 | |
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https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.html Scroll down to supply trend and set the date to yesterday. Then set the date to 6 months ago and you can see what it's like in winter. You do realize the sun isn't always out, right? We aren't at the limits everywhere, but we are in many places, and we are only adding "unstable" supply to fill in the gaps. Imagine taking a job that paid less, and your spouse got a new job that only paid on sunny days. You might clear the same income per year, but it wont be stable. You can save your money, but you can't efficiently save watts at this scale. It's also not economical to send California sun watts to North Dakota on a windless North Dakota day, nor north Dakota wind watts to California on a cloudy California day. The normal reply I hear is "don't worry, they will figure it out". I'm one of those "they's", and I'm saying "good luck with that..." Get ready for brownouts and rolling blackouts. |
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06-23-2022, 06:45 PM | #317 | |
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Adopting a new way of doing things doesn't have to be perfect in every aspect before it's acceptable. I'm not caught up in the false marketing of EV's being "green" so we can certainly continue to power EVs with coal or natural gas to meet the gap. It's awful for the environment, but the alternative is awful for the environment as well. Not a big deal. The long term goal is significantly reducing oil imports and gaining energy independence so we're not reliant on a bunch of lunatics to live life normally. The greenhouse gas emission reductions are certainly an added bonus. Car companies are going electric, utility companies are upgrading and adding renewable capacity. Utility companies will continue to want to make money so they'll provide that energy, one way or another. Similar thing happened when air condition systems started becoming popular.
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06-23-2022, 07:06 PM | #318 | |
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I don't want to destroy our grid along the way, or fool ourselves about how green we are on the way to setting up something better (and I do 100% want that "better). A large majority (90% in many places) of EV's charge between midnight and 6 AM when power is cheaper. That's almost all coal and natural gas energy at that time of day, with a little hydro mixed in (which with droughts is also no longer sustainable). Utilities are adding capacity, but it's not going where people think it does, and it's not a stable supply. They are also removing capacity elsewhere (coal retirement) that is actually stable. Driving an EV powered by coal and natural gas has a per-mile-CO2 production similar to driving a prius, but a prius doesn't load the grid, and those cars are cheap and reliable already. Half the price of an average EV too. I'm concerned we are putting the cart before the horse on some of this stuff. Forcing it won't make it work better. Last edited by chad86tsi; 06-23-2022 at 08:59 PM.. |
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06-23-2022, 07:26 PM | #319 |
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Good conversation ^^^^
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06-24-2022, 09:10 AM | #320 |
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Night time solar is the heliostats that retain heat and keep boilers going driving turbines at night or when the sun isn't shining.
Although it's still not perfect. |
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06-26-2022, 01:57 PM | #321 |
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Not smelling, maintaining or using an outdated inefficient ICE engine everyday is reason enough to switch. The fact that EV's can be greener in most situations is icing on the cake. Yes anyone can make a hypothetical argument with a focused scenario where they aren't greener but it's totally missing the point.
The narrative that everything isn't perfect so let's not bother is becoming tiresome to hear. |
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06-26-2022, 04:00 PM | #323 | |
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Charging an EV with Carbon based electricity, good or bad for the environment? I'd say it's better than nothing, but so are hybrids and/or public transit. |
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06-26-2022, 08:38 PM | #324 | |
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But there are plenty of other benefits. Fast, fun, included tech, low maintenance, no trips to the gas station, full charge every day, quiet, etc. We are all driving different cars for different reasons. No one vehicle is a one size fits all, or we'd all be driving the same thing. You may not see the point. That doesn't mean there isn't one. |
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06-26-2022, 08:57 PM | #325 | |
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We will get there, lets just be smart about it. |
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06-26-2022, 08:59 PM | #326 | |
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The people want it. Time to figure it out. You guys do support capitalism, don't you? |
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06-26-2022, 09:09 PM | #327 |
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guys it's not about the environment. the gas prices itself is a turn off to buy ICEs right now. where i live diesels are now more expensive than gas - who would have thought.
but the charging stations cost as much as petrol however, so you do need to charge at home to save money. that's not counting the cost of longer term maintenance. |
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06-26-2022, 10:07 PM | #328 | |
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People also want Heroin and Meth, and a universal basic income. It's not always good for business to give the people what they want. |
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06-27-2022, 07:51 AM | #329 |
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Welp, that's your choice and you're free to make it!
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06-27-2022, 09:47 AM | #330 |
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Interesting article on the ownership costs of EV's vs Hybrid and ICE. Done over 3 years and it seems that there really isn't any savings for the EV, in most cases it was more expensive. Gas prices were lower for the testing as it was done over 3 years, but once government has to spend trillions to upgrade the grid and gas tax is lost as ICE diminishes the cost for EV will likely go up....way up.
https://driving.ca/features/shopping...fers-surprises |
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