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      09-08-2020, 11:03 AM   #1
bryanhoag
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Top issue revisited

Hi All,

Revisiting a top issue with some new info to see if anyone has any insight.

Video here to show the issue:


The issue is that in the opening sequence, the top doesn't seem to have enough power initiate lifting the stacked top pieces back into the trunk. Once assisted slightly by hand, the opening sequence completes normally.

Since initially discussing this issue, I have changed the salmon colored relays, had the hydraulic pump and accessory cylinders reconditioned, hydraulic harness inspected, and replaced the battery. None of these fixed the top issue. It behaved exactly the same. Also, having the car running during top opening does not change the issue.

Something that I have noticed is that the top always fails to open correctly on the first drive of the day but will often open normally after having been driven for a while (i.e. drive for an hour, stop, close top, go into store for 10 minutes, come back out and top opens normally).

Cold car - incorrect function
Warm car - normal function


Wondering if normal cold/resting battery voltage of 12.6V is not powerful enough to open the top but after driving a while the battery voltage gets a boost (13.7-14.7V) and is then enough to get the top to open normally.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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      09-09-2020, 01:39 AM   #2
tintoverano
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yeah, seems to be battery related

you could try charging the battery fully and then try to open the roof before driving it to rule out the battery
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      09-09-2020, 04:53 PM   #3
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Good thought! I'll try that soon.
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      09-18-2020, 03:44 AM   #4
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Did you already check the brass screw on the pump next to the seats, if it's completely locked?
What about the two gas springs (800Nm) in the roof? Already replaced?
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      09-18-2020, 05:46 AM   #5
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Not familiar with the brass screw on the pump next to the seats or the gas springs you speak of. Do you have a photos or diagrams? Thanks!
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      10-25-2021, 02:47 AM   #6
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Still to check!
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      04-18-2022, 04:41 PM   #7
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After buying a E89 Z4 2009 model, I've found the top system to be basically operated by hydraulics both in up and down mode. You have already done my first guess of the root of the problem, changing those salmon relays, on the hydraulic unit. Those relays provide full battery current to the electric pump motor, and control the direction of rotation of the motor for up or down motion. Within the top structure there are a number of microswitches, and Hall Sensor proximity sensors. Each of these sensor inhibit, or stop the top from opening or closing. The only actual top internal electric motor is in the bow of the top where the two claws move into position to lock the top to the upper windshield. The circuit card that controls the top is the Convertible Top Control Card. It is also located in the trunk in the next partitioned compartment next to where the hydraulic unit is located (to the right side) to get to it you'll have to remove the truck bottom plates to the right rear tire well. I noted in the video, it only took a light touch to get the top to move to the down position. To me this indicates a possible sensor problem like a microswitch out of adjustment. I'd also check the fluid level while the top is fully up and locked to the windshield. Remove the brass screw on top of the reservoir, and fill if low. Be sure to have the proper fluid to add if low. The top should move to fully up, and fully stowed in 22 seconds each way. If you look at the wiring going from the batteries main buss bar two red wires go directly to the salmon relays plugs. These wires feed full battery current to both relays. The selection of the making of contacts in these relays come from the CTM based on the direction the top is to take. It would be a benefit to measure the amps during top up and top down function to test the motors load value to the system. If you bought the car used, you may want to look into any history of the top and problems it may have had. Hydraulics units are very sensitive to dirt in the systems clogging valves within the control unit. So if you open the unit in any way be sure to cap any open lines.
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      04-18-2022, 04:57 PM   #8
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I know the poster bumped this but anyway, was the car running in the video? It's always advisable to have the car engine running when operating the roof so that the battery doesn't get drained. I'm guessing that's the main reason for OP's prb.
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      04-19-2022, 12:37 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
It's always advisable to have the car engine running when operating the roof so that the battery doesn't get drained. I'm guessing that's the main reason for OP's prb.
I don't agree: it's a simple electrical unit, that can be run electrically.
The problems you indicate are reasoned mostly by 10 year old batteries, that generally should be replaced by new 70AH AGM ones.

Roof maintenance:
https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=130932
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      04-19-2022, 12:45 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surfwooder View Post
. It would be a benefit to measure the amps during top up and top down function to test the motors load value to the system. If you bought the car used, you may want to look into any history of the top and problems it may have had. Hydraulics units are very sensitive to dirt in the systems clogging valves within the control unit. So if you open the unit in any way be sure to cap any open lines.
The max. measured current was 40A, the fuse in the red fusebox is 50A.

There is no loss of hydraulic fluid except there is a leakage. Then the hydraulic harness has to be replaced.

And be cautious, the 2 brass "screws" are hydraulic valves and can't be removed without destroying the pump!

No need to touch it in any way except there is a repair situation. In addition, there is no need to open or remove any of the hydraulic components just 4 fun or interest! Each seal and o-ring has to be replaced by new ones after dismanteling anything. We are talking about a system with about 180 bar pressure, that's a lot.

I've never seen "weak" hydraulic pumps on E89's, except they got massive damaged by corrosion due to long lasting water in the trunc. See the above maintenance link.

Last edited by RobbiZ4; 04-19-2022 at 01:18 AM..
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      04-19-2022, 01:53 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbiZ4 View Post
I don't agree: it's a simple electrical unit, that can be run electrically.
The problems you indicate are reasoned mostly by 10 year old batteries, that generally should be replaced by new 70AH AGM ones.

Roof maintenance:
https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=130932
Hmm, I dunno, I'd rather use the alternator instead of solely the battery, why risk straining/draining it? Seems like good practice to avoid unnecessary prbs.
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      04-19-2022, 02:09 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
Hmm, I dunno, I'd rather use the alternator instead of solely the battery, why risk straining/draining it? Seems like good practice to avoid unnecessary prbs.
Yes, you can, why not.
To be honest, then you have to avoid any electrical consumption as it always drains a battery.

The system is well designed to cover any electrical needs. The pump takes a max. of 180-500W/15-40A in these ~23 seconds and the battery can deliver a max. of 760A, if it's in a normal healthy condition. That's the intended purpose and use of a battery.

And a battery gets weakened over years even if it's not used as intended due to internal chemical processes. In our "modern" cars it has to be replaced latest after 10 years, if used as intended or not.
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      04-19-2022, 02:25 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbiZ4 View Post
Yes, you can, why not.
To be honest, then you have to avoid any electrical consumption as it always drains a battery.

The system is well designed to cover any electrical needs. The pump takes a max. of 180-500W/15-40A in these ~23 seconds and the battery can deliver a max. of 760A, if it's in a normal healthy condition. That's the intended purpose and use of a battery.

And a battery gets weakened over years even if it's not used as intended due to internal chemical processes. In our "modern" cars it has to be replaced latest after 10 years, if used as intended or not.
Sure, but that's what I heard and the roof mechanism is quite draining, esp if used repeatedly. So if one solely relies upon the battery as the car engine is not running, doesn't seem like good practice.
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      04-19-2022, 02:35 AM   #14
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What happened to the "Y3 Roof Diagnostic Tool"?
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      04-19-2022, 04:38 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
Sure, but that's what I heard and the roof mechanism is quite draining, esp if used repeatedly. So if one solely relies upon the battery as the car engine is not running, doesn't seem like good practice.
Well, but this is not the intended usage of this roof.
So I disagree with your recommendation. Just care about a battery replacement (latestly) each decade.

Last edited by RobbiZ4; 04-19-2022 at 04:27 PM..
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      04-19-2022, 04:40 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoddyZ4 View Post
What happened to the "Y3 Roof Diagnostic Tool"?
It works fine and is weekly in use.
https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=134505
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      04-19-2022, 01:39 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbiZ4 View Post
Well, but this is not the intended usage of this roof.
So I disagree with your recommendation. Just care about a battery replacement each.decade.
What do you mean? Given a good day, everytime you use the car, the roof will be operated twice, so depending on how many errands you run in a day, it may be 2-10 times or more. There's a difference between theoretical and actual real life and batteries fail all the time.

You can risk by solely using the battery every time you use your roof but I'm gonna take that extra precaution and make sure my car is on first. It's just unnecessary to stubbornly rely upon the battery but whatever you do is your business. I think it's just silly to risk draining the battery esp when it's simple to avoid…just to prove a pt? OK…. That's just my advice reading other ppl's precautions.

As for 10 years, maybe if you live in some ideal climate. Many ppl change theirs way before then.
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      04-19-2022, 03:54 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
I think it's just silly...
I accept to be silly.

Well, when starting the engine 10 times a day (and that is what I do with it), the battery load is much higher in this short period of about 2-5 seconds than the hydraulic pump may take over the 23 seconds period with stops, delays and changes of the pumps turning direction.

Think about BMW 's solution to operate the roof by the FOB remotely, far before being able to enter the car and start the engine with the car's battery. If the integrated energy mananagement is not able to manage this little consumption, the BMW engineers here in Munich made a big mistake.

But let us stop this discussion, it's not a fault to operate it with a running engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
As for 10 years, maybe if you live in some ideal climate. Many ppl change theirs way before then.
That's ok as well.

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Last edited by RobbiZ4; 04-19-2022 at 04:28 PM..
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      04-19-2022, 04:01 PM   #19
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Well, if you like we can take a poll to see if ppl who use the roof w only the battery has any prbs. I'd love to know.

The BMW techs and manager knew to start my car when operating the roof, so I'd go w what they do. Heck, I read somewhere, perhaps also from the manual itself, that they caution about using the roof too much w the car off for my/that very reason. Like I said, you do you if you wanna disregard, I prefer to not risk overworking the battery.
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      04-19-2022, 04:11 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
Well, if you like we can take a poll to see if ppl who use the roof w only the battery has any prbs. I'd love to know.
Once again, it's absolutely ok what you do.
And I'm silly. I don't understand this discussion.
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      04-22-2022, 06:10 PM   #21
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Start car pull 400 amps for 2 seconds.
Operate roof 20 seconds pull say 20 amps continuous on battery only.

I wouldn't worry unless your battery is 10 years old.
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      05-11-2022, 02:15 PM   #22
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Well all… it seems my top issue is finally resolved.

Replacing the rams for the main pillar was the solution.

Interesting as one of the first things I had done was have the main pillar rams rebuilt. Not sure why the rebuild didn't resolve the issue. But, the replacement has done the trick.

Edit: it's possible it was not the main pillar rams that were rebuilt.
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