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      05-30-2020, 03:58 PM   #8933
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridaorange View Post
^Yes!!
When our troops put themselves in harms way on foreign soil, it's for all Americans, not just those under 65 and without pre-existing conditions.

And they don't whine about having to carry or wear a mask.
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      05-30-2020, 10:25 PM   #8934
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Pretty much a roundabout way to create a police state to enforce mask use. [...]
And now that we've opened this can of worms and let the cat out of the bag, Governors can now mandate such mask wearing orders anytime they want for practically any reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Is the regular flu season a compelling reason? The US 2017 flu season has an estimate of 61,000 deaths. So without getting into the seasonal flu vs. COVIC-19 debate, we've never required mask wearing, where businesses can refuse service to individuals not wearing a mask indoors in a public space and be held LEGALLY ACCOUNTABLE FOR NOT REFUSING SERVICE to such customers because of the flu. So next flu season, where is the line drawn on number of acceptable deaths, where it won't trigger an "Order 63" event? Yeah, I get it, COVID-19 protections will obfuscate the flu, but we are in a new era now with Gov. KKK at the helm here in Virginia.
Actually, back in the day, being refused service would have been the least of your concerns.

No, regardless of the (constitutional) right or freedom you deemed applicable to justify your refusal to wear a mask back then, you were simply:
  1. publicly despised as "a dangerous slacker", lacking "responsibility and patriotism" and failing "not only to protect yourself but (also) your children and your neighbor"
  2. fined
  3. jailed
  4. shot
  5. eventually all of the above
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post




Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Also during the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918-1919, there was an "Anti-Mask League":

Forbes - Apr 29, 2020 - "Protesting During A Pandemic Isn’t New: Meet The Anti-Mask League Of 1918" | source: here
"But by late 1918, masks had become a national symbol of responsibility and patriotism. Slowing the spread of influenza became part of the war effort in the final months of World War I.
[...]
“The man or woman or child who will not wear a mask is now a dangerous slacker,” declared the Red Cross in a public service announcement. In cities like San Francisco, people found not wearing masks were charged with “disturbing the peace.” Most paid $5 fines (which went straight to the Red Cross); some went to jail until it became apparent that crowding people into jails during a pandemic was, at best, not a great idea.
[...]
Just like today, the drastic measures San Francisco and the rest of the country took in 1918 seemed to work. “Flatten the curve” wasn’t a term people used in 1918, but that’s what seemed to be happening. By mid-November, fewer people were getting sick, and San Francisco began to re-open, just as parts of the world are doing today. People packed into theaters, eager to get back to business (and pleasure) as usual – and within two weeks, the deadly flu had made a dramatic comeback. And – in San Francisco and all over the world – the second wave was worse than the first.
By mid-January 1919, city officials once again ordered people to wear their masks in public. And in the midst of the devastating outbreak, a group of between 2,000 and 4,000 people decided to hold a large public gathering in order to protest being told to wear masks. The Anti-Mask League [...]"
No mask ? Then no trolley service for you.
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      Yesterday, 09:02 AM   #8935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
LOL, okay 2 pictures of I guess is the time of the Spanish flu, somewhere in the world.

I'll counter with the movie "It's a Wonderful Life". In the movie, the pharmacist, Mr. Gower, looses his son to "the influenza", as notified on May 3rd, 1919, which is a significant part of the story. However, nowhere in the movie does anyone don a mask ever in any part of the movie. Nowhere in the background of any of the movie scenes can one find a sign, placard, or billboard, about wearing a mask or you'll be jailed, shot, or fined. In fact, there are numerous scenes where people are seen in very close proximity of one another, such as the high school dance, no kids or adults wearing masks.

One would think that since the movie relies on historically accurate depictions of American life (all important to the story line) that if mask wearing during the 1918 - 1919 influenza epidemic was so highly enforced as you infer, it would have be depicted in the movie.
If you are using a film from 1946 as your proof of not wearing a mask today, you are a moron.
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      Yesterday, 09:23 AM   #8936
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Yes. The original writing of the move started in 1936, just 18 years past the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic, so well within the memory of the writer.
Just because the writer of the film writer started in 1936 doesn't mean it's a factual account of the time. To this end will you also accept Quentin Tarantino's version of events in his film about the Manson Murders? Will you use Bambi as your proof for hunting laws? Maybe cite "La La Land" as a reason for radios to be removed from cars, as they tend to cause horrific traffic on overpasses, ya know with the propensity of people to dance and sing on the freeway.
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      Yesterday, 11:42 AM   #8937
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier View Post
I doubt some "medical board" holds more authority than the chief executive of the state. Care to share where you heard that nonsense?

.
http://www.tmb.state.tx.us/dl/6765AA...B-C27AA5AC19AA
They require masks, subject to penalties under board rules. This after our Governor said people don't have to wear them. http://www.tmb.state.tx.us/dl/6765AA...B-C27AA5AC19AA
These are all the COVID related rules.
Prior to the one I posted above, we were required by law to report people violating the non essential surgery mandate, under penalty of possible loss of license!
Tort reform in Texas gave the board a lot of power.
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      Yesterday, 01:24 PM   #8938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier View Post
I doubt some "medical board" holds more authority than the chief executive of the state. Care to share where you heard that nonsense?

.
http://www.tmb.state.tx.us/dl/6765AA...B-C27AA5AC19AA
They require masks, subject to penalties under board rules. This after our Governor said people don't have to wear them. http://www.tmb.state.tx.us/dl/6765AA...B-C27AA5AC19AA
These are all the COVID related rules.
Prior to the one I posted above, we were required by law to report people violating the non essential surgery mandate, under penalty of possible loss of license!
Tort reform in Texas gave the board a lot of power.
Are we really supposed to believe that there's a state "medical board" that holds more power than the state's Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches of government? Think about how silly that would be. At best you can say the board has greater political power, but definitely not power under the law. Authority granted by law is what I'm referring to.
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      Yesterday, 09:31 PM   #8939
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Watching the news this morning, American core values have seemed to morph to slash and burn rioting, looting, burning police stations and cars, and burning out private citizens businesses.
Obviously you've confused American values with criminal behavior - For Trumpkins, I can't blame them given their role model does that every day.
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.

Last edited by GrussGott; Yesterday at 10:26 PM..
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      Yesterday, 09:41 PM   #8940
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I am sorry our resident virologist's thread is quiet due to the destruction of our major cities. Hopefully it will pick back up soon as I would like the riots to stop.

Check in from Destin FL. Hardly any masks or social distancing so we will likely all be dead soon. I am however having an awesome time and if this the last vacation I will ever have then it was a good one.

We brought our masks with intention of wearing them but what's the point when no one else has one on?

Good luck humans!
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      Today, 06:44 AM   #8941
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
LOL, okay 2 pictures of I guess is the time of the Spanish flu, somewhere in the world.
I'll counter with the movie "It's a Wonderful Life". [...]
One would think that since the movie relies on historically accurate depictions of American life (all important to the story line) that if mask wearing during the 1918 - 1919 influenza epidemic was so highly enforced as you infer, it would have be depicted in the movie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
And my response is no more moronic than his, since he is taking pictures and news clips out of context. [...]
None of what Artemis (not an American BTW) posted is anywhere related to my point [...]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I'll accept the film's account about the adoption of mask wearing in 1918 - 1919 as much I do from Artemis's two pictures and a few anecdotes from supposed news paper clippings. (Which was my point knucklehead).
According to the CDC, 675,000 American citizens died during the Spanish flu pandemic, in a country that was vastly rural at the time and had 1/3 less to population it does today and with a far less transportation system capability than today. So all this 1918 flu pandemic mask wearing crap everyone is trying to use to virtuous-shame wearing them in 2020, is just that, crap. If everyone was wearing masks back in 1918 like Artemis thinks they were (cops were shooting people for God's sake!!!!), then the masks weren't very effective now were they.
Stop letting yourself get mind-fucked, it leads to mental disease that no mask can protect you from. There are literally no people alive in 1918 who are here today that can verify and validate the level of mask wearing that occurred 100 years ago.
Efthreeoh:
  1. Making statements that fail to befriend the truth/reality as basis for criticizing others, can backfire when debunked; "get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please" (Mark Twain);
  2. Some assistance to help you in handling the truth on this subject:
    • through this link you get 296 references to PDF documents from the 1918-1919 Spanish flu pandemic era (mostly scans of newspaper articles); dozens of those publications deal with mask orders advised, imposed, upheld, criticized and revoked, and how citizens dealt with those;
    • for 2,030 references to publications in that data base as a result of applying the search string 'masks': see here;
  3. Also over here at Bimmerpost, respect is a core value that must be observed; challenging someone's integrity without merit and with the use of belittling or questionable wordings ("moronic", "crap", "supposed news paper clippings", "mind-fucking" that "leads to mental disease"), displays a failure to comply with said basic value; if you don't want an admin or mod to revoke - temporary of permanently - your privilege to visit this forum, show some respect and mind your language; consider this a warning.
50 examples debunking your gross denial of US history on this subject (for dozens of others: see point 2 above):
  1. "Here Is Text of City Mask Ordinance - Violation Incurs Fine or Imprisonment - The Text Of The Ordinance Passed Yesterday By The Board Of Supervisors, Requiring Every One To Wear An Anti-Influenza Mask", San Francisco Chronicle, Oct 25, 1918, p. 1: here
  2. "Wear Your Mask! Commands Drastic New Ordinance - Emergency Measure Hits All Persons - Fine Of From $5 to $100 Or Imprisonment For 10 Days Approved By Board", San Francisco Chronicle, Oct 25, 1918, p. 1: here
  3. "Everyone Is Compelled to Wear Masks by City Resolution - Great Variety in Styles of Face Adornment in Evidence", San Francisco Chronicle, Oct 25, 1918, p. 1: here
  4. "Wearing Mask Compulsory In Oakland", San Francisco Examiner, Oct 26, 1918, p. 9: here
  5. "Seattle Ordered To Wear Masks Beginning Today - Official Edict Covers Street Cars, Stores And Other Places In City", Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Oct 28, 1918, p. 1: here
  6. "Wear Influenza Masks Or Walk, Mayor Orders - No Excuses For Not Obeying Rule Will Be Accepted Tomorrow, Declares Hanson", Seattle Daily Times, Oct 29, 1918, p. 1: here
  7. "'Mask Slackers' Given Jail Sentences, Fines", San Francisco Examiner, Oct 29, 1918, p. 13: here
  8. "Three Shot In Row Over "Flu" Mask", San Francisco Examiner, Oct 29, 1918, p. 13: here
  9. "100 Mask Slackers Held On Charge Of Disturbing Peace" + "Three Shot In Struggle With Mask Slacker - Blacksmith Strikes Health Inspector Striving To Enforce Order", San Francisco Chronicle, Oct 29, 1918, p. 1: here
  10. "Everybody Tries To Look Happy Despite Masks, Seattle Daily Times, Oct 30, 1918, p. 1: here
  11. "Mask Order Law - Arrests Are Ordered", Oakland Enquirer, Nov 1, 1918, p. 9: here
  12. "Fine Is Set On Men Who Drop Masks", Oakland Tribune, Nov 1, 1918, p. 12: here
  13. "50 Without Masks Are Arrested", San Francisco Examiner, Nov 2, 1918: here
  14. "Ten Mask Slackers Get 10-Day Sentences", San Francisco Examiner, Nov 2, 1918, p. 11: here
  15. "Maskless Folk Are Taught Lesson By Health Sleuths - Travelers, Meek And Mild, Captured By Vigilant Police For Violating Order", San Francisco Chronicle, Nov 2, 1918, p. 1: here
  16. "$7000 Fines Paid In Flu Mask Cases", Oakland Tribune, Nov 4, 1918, p. 14: here
  17. "Entire State To Don Gauze Mask", Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Nov 4, 1918, p. 1: here
  18. "Hassler Warns City Against Carelessness In Wearing Of Masks As New Cases Decline - Health Officer Believes San Franciscans Will Be Obliged To Cover Faces For 2 Months", San Francisco Chronicle, Nov 6, 1918, p. 1: here
  19. "All Spokane to Wear Flu Masks - State Requires Use Of Device In Stores, Cars, Corridors, Public Places, in Offices", The Spokesman-Review, Nov 7, 1918, p. 6: here
  20. "Must Get Masks By Next Monday", Spokane Daily Chronicle, Nov 9, 1918: here
  21. "Health Officer Warns Police - He Threatens Arrest If They Do Not Wear Flu Masks", The Spokesman-Review, Nov 10, 1918, p. 1: here
  22. "Health Board Orders Masks - No One May Appear In Public Places Without The Gauze Protectors", Indianapolis News, Nov 18, 1918, p. 1: here
  23. "Flu Masks Must Be Worn in All Public Places Beginning Today - Schools Are Closed" + "Convention Of Federation To Be Held, But With Masks", Indianapolis Star, Nov 19, 1918, p. 1: here
  24. "Ringside Picture Reveals Maskless Fans To Police - Those Shown Unmasked Must Contribute To War Work Or Face Judge", San Francisco Chronicle, Nov 20, 1918, p. 9: here
  25. "Mr. Flu (or Is It Missus?) All Out of Luck - Nearly Everybody Has His Face Tied Up", Indianapolis Star, Nov 21, 1918, p. 4: here
  26. Resolution to "rescind the mask ordinance" adopted by San Francisco Board of Health at a special meeting on Nov 21, 1918: here and here
  27. "Flu Ban Is Off, Masks Are Ordered - Theatres Demand The Same Rights As Stores", The Denver Post, Nov 23, 1918, p. 1: here
  28. "Get Mask And Wear It Or Take Chance On Jail, City To Enforce Order", The Denver Post, Nov 24, 1918, p. 1, 13: here
  29. "Epidemic Closing Order Revoked - Masks Urged To Stop Disease Spread", Rocky Mountain News, Nov 24, 1918, p. 1: here
  30. "Health Proclamation", The Denver Post, Nov 24, 1918, p. 2: here
  31. "Police Will Enforce Flu Masking Order - Order Is Effective At 4 This Afternoon - Officers To Be Stationed On Main Corners Downtown And Abroad And Will Forbid Persons Entering Street Cars Unmasked - City Officials Divided" + "City Police To Enforce Street Car Mask Order - Will Be Stationed On Main Corners Downtown To Prevent Unmasked Persons Entering Street Cars - Tramway Wouldn't Take Responsibility", The Denver Post, Nov 25, 1918, p. 1 and p. 2: here and here
  32. "Health Regulations to Be Observed", The Denver Post, Nov 26, 1918, p. 5: here
  33. Telegram, "Ninety percent of the population San Francisco wearing gauze masks by proclamation", RG 112 Records of the Office of the Surgeon General (Army), Nov 28, 1918: here and here
  34. "Arrested In Park City For Not Wearing Mask Sues For Habeas Corpus", Deseret Evening News, Dec 5, 1918, p. 2: here
  35. "Masking Order Is To Be Rigidly Enforced - County Physician Howells Sees No Reason Why Salt Lake City Should Not Adopt Similar Measures", Deseret Evening News, Dec 6, 1918, p. 2: here
  36. "Health Department and City Officials Recommend the Use of Gauze Masks in Public Places", Birmingham Age-Herald, Dec 6, 1918, p. 5: here
  37. "Mask Wearing Obligatory in S. F. Schools - Education Board Issues Rule Affecting All Teachers And Pupils", San Francisco Chronicle, Jan 5, 1919, p. 8: here
  38. "San Franciscans Will Again Don Masks Next Friday - Supervisors Pass Ordinance To Protect City Against Further Spread Of Malady", San Francisco Chronicle, Jan 11, 1919, p. 11: here
  39. "Influenza Mask Measure Drawn - Council to Pass On It Wednesday - Framers Of Ordinance Include A Severe Penalty For Violations Of Provisions", Oregon Daily Journal, Jan 14, 1919, p. 1: here
  40. "Mask Law for Oakland Enacted; Effective Jan. 22", Oakland Enquirer, Jan 14, 1919, p. 1: here
  41. "Influenza Cases Reach High Mark - Council Expected To Pass Mask Ordinance Today - Co-operation Best Weapon", The Oregonian, Jan 15, 1919, p. 1, 6: here
  42. "Pasadena Snorts Under Masks - Sixty Violators Of The New Flu Law Are Arrested First Day", Los Angeles Times, Jan 21, 1919, p. 1: here
  43. "Compulsory Masking Adopted With Opening Of L. D. S. University - Personal Daily Health Report Required From Every Student", Deseret Evening News, Jan 20, 1919, p. 1: here
  44. "Flu Mask Or Jail Is Choice In S. F. Today - Police Officers Are Ordered By Chief To Arrest All Without Gauze Protectors Properly Worn", San Francisco Examiner, Jan 20, 1919, p. 9: here
  45. "Police Take 100 Maskless Folk To Jail - Car Conductors Aid In Round-Up By Signaling Officers To Take Passengers Without Gauze", San Francisco Examiner, Jan 21, 1919, p. 11: here
  46. "Smoke In Flu Mask Leads To Arrest - Thirteen In Pasadena Court For Improper Wearing Of Face Covers", Los Angeles Evening Herald, Jan 21, 1919, p. 3, 7: here
  47. "Flu Mask Law Again Before Advisers - Meeting Considers Plans To Reopen Seventy-Five Of City's Schools", Los Angeles Evening Herald, Jan 23, 1919, p. 6: here
  48. "Thousands Attend Protest Meeting - Mask Opponents Denounce City Ordinance", San Francisco Chronicle, Jan 26, 1919, p. 9: here
  49. "Shall The Public Be Muzzled?: A Discussion of the Mask and Other Questions", The Imprint, Jan 1919, p. 1: here
  50. "'Flu' Masks Banished By Rolph Edict", San Francisco Examiner, Feb 2, 1919, p. 11: here
Greetings from Europe.
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      Today, 07:15 AM   #8942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier View Post
Are we really supposed to believe that there's a state "medical board" that holds more power than the state's Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches of government? Think about how silly that would be. At best you can say the board has greater political power, but definitely not power under the law. Authority granted by law is what I'm referring to.
Unfortunately, there is and they typically run amok until reigned in. The board here self funded itself by running a sort of, pay-for-play scheme. The board picks physicians who have complaints or have been vocal against the board and it's rulings, brings a charge of sorts against them. Rules against them and offers them the choice of a 60 day suspension, some kind of counseling (with the counseling options being related to the family or crony of the board members), a fine of $25K to $100K, depending on the infraction, and a 2 year suspended sentence on their license. This was for the people who cooperated. If you don't cooperate, they cancel your license for 2 or 3 years, fine you $100K+, make sure the states one has reciprocity with cancel your license for a congruent time. They fixed the one in our state about a year and a half ago but didn't reverse any of the tainted rulings.

This has happened to 2 dear friends of mine, one Harvard educated, who spoke out against the board. Despicable.

The problem is that the laws around these boards are loosely written, the board is formed, then a bunch of bureaucrats write REGULATIONS that promulgate the tyranny they can reign over those they are charged to regulate.

This has become a repeat danger in all aspects of our lives. It's tyranny by regulatory means and needs to end.

Cheers-mk
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      Today, 08:33 AM   #8943
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The medical boards can have a lot of power. When I first got my license here, I talked to someone who was accused of practicing without a license because they found a DRAFT of a web page with his name on it. He had never made an appointment for a patient, much less ever seen one. It took him over a year and thousands of dollars to fight it. I had small error on my application and they go right to accusing you of falsifying a government document. Got it through, but had to pay an attorney about $3k.
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      Today, 09:42 AM   #8944
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post
The medical boards can have a lot of power. When I first got my license here, I talked to someone who was accused of practicing without a license because they found a DRAFT of a web page with his name on it. He had never made an appointment for a patient, much less ever seen one. It took him over a year and thousands of dollars to fight it. I had small error on my application and they go right to accusing you of falsifying a government document. Got it through, but had to pay an attorney about $3k.
This.

And you are just scratching the surface on the entire sordid enterprise. As a physician, you are in real and material danger because it's guilty until proven innocent with Medical Boards.
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      Today, 10:20 AM   #8945
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
This.

And you are just scratching the surface on the entire sordid enterprise. As a physician, you are in real and material danger because it's guilty until proven innocent with Medical Boards.
Yes! It's insane, this all came about when tort reform got passed, 1/2 the board aren't even in the health care field.
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      Today, 10:38 AM   #8946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebekahb View Post
On the whole mask thing, I understand the reasoning.

Can we talk about the effectiveness of wearing a mask while constantly touching surfaces, pulling the mask down with unwashed or sanitized hands, touching the public phone & then pulling it back up, pulling it down under you nose to talk with unclean hands, etc? How much are you really protecting yourself at this point?
If the reasoning is to keep aerosolized virus out of the air to protect others then it is not about protecting the individual. The more people wear masks, the more the virus is contained in the masks protecting everybody.

This is not a difficult concept yet so many cannot think beyond self.
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      Today, 10:47 AM   #8947
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If you want to protect Yourself, you need an N95 mask or better and then you must you the right technique, don't touch it, get a good seal,etc. Most people can't get them. We wear them at work and they're not easy to breathe through for a long time.
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      Today, 10:55 AM   #8948
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post
If you want to protect Yourself, you need an N95 mask or better and then you must you the right technique, don't touch it, get a good seal,etc. Most people can't get them. We wear them at work and they're not easy to breathe through for a long time.
Yep, this is what I have been saying. Wear an n95 or greater and protect yourself and others unless you have one with the valve to breathe out of.
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      Today, 11:13 AM   #8949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagamus_NM View Post
Yep, this is what I have been saying. Wear an n95 or greater and protect yourself and others unless you have one with the valve to breathe out of.
Yeah, I hate those blow holes, patients come in with them all time, they either need to tape it up or get something else.
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