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      05-05-2020, 10:42 AM   #23
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      05-05-2020, 08:05 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by tim99ws6 View Post
Im hoping it creates a flood of 991.x GT3's to the market in about 2 years. Driven LOTS of cars in my life, and nothing was the perfect mixture of raw/tech/pure NA/Built like a tank/sound/experience that driving a 991 GT3 was.
Agreed. The GT3 has been the pinnacle of track bred street cars since inception and continues to just be a car that just embodies those attributes in spades. They always come out with the new gen car and everyone says, ďtheyíll never be able to top thisĒ and yet they do with complete ease. I am excited to see what the new GT3 and RS do. I think the GT3 will be able to run the Ring in under 7 mins.
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      05-05-2020, 10:44 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by tim99ws6 View Post
Im hoping it creates a flood of 991.x GT3's to the market in about 2 years. Driven LOTS of cars in my life, and nothing was the perfect mixture of raw/tech/pure NA/Built like a tank/sound/experience that driving a 991 GT3 was.
I may quite possibly keep my 991.2 GT3 forever, based on the direction everything else seems to be going these days. But if the 992 (likely 992.2) is still as raw, connected, and NA then I may bite.

People were saying after the 997 and 991 and now 992 that "this is probably the last generation before it goes turbo" but I think we're finally at the point where it's likely true.
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      05-06-2020, 05:32 AM   #26
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      05-06-2020, 07:03 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Flacht3 View Post
I may quite possibly keep my 991.2 GT3 forever, based on the direction everything else seems to be going these days. But if the 992 (likely 992.2) is still as raw, connected, and NA then I may bite.

People were saying after the 997 and 991 and now 992 that "this is probably the last generation before it goes turbo" but I think we're finally at the point where it's likely true.
Yes I agree. I actually held onto my first Generation Corvette Z06 longer than I needed to, mostly for the same reasons(raw/light/connected) that the later models started to ruin.

Every since my first track day with a 991 GT3, I knew that was my "goal car"
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      05-06-2020, 05:01 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Flacht3 View Post
I may quite possibly keep my 991.2 GT3 forever, based on the direction everything else seems to be going these days. But if the 992 (likely 992.2) is still as raw, connected, and NA then I may bite.

People were saying after the 997 and 991 and now 992 that "this is probably the last generation before it goes turbo" but I think we're finally at the point where it's likely true.
Other possibility is that the GT3 stays NA longer but ends up being even more limited and thus has left impact on fleet range due to it. I hope it stays NA as long as possible. I would guess Porsche will find a way to do so as well. People said the GT4 wouldnít be NA either, and yet they not only kept it NA but gave us 5% more displacement too.
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      05-06-2020, 07:20 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tim99ws6 View Post
Yes I agree. I actually held onto my first Generation Corvette Z06 longer than I needed to, mostly for the same reasons(raw/light/connected) that the later models started to ruin.

Every since my first track day with a 991 GT3, I knew that was my "goal car"
Assuming you mean a C5Z, the C6Z offered so much more in the way of handling, braking and especially power and only weighed about 20lbs more then the C5Z. Everyone who reviewed the new Z said it was so much better then the C5Z. It was still ultra raw, lightweight and fully connected with vastly better stick and handling and so much more ferocious power delivery. Surprised you would have your started to get ruined opinion as itís certainly in the minority. To each his own.
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      05-06-2020, 09:01 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
Other possibility is that the GT3 stays NA longer but ends up being even more limited and thus has left impact on fleet range due to it. I hope it stays NA as long as possible. I would guess Porsche will find a way to do so as well. People said the GT4 wouldnít be NA either, and yet they not only kept it NA but gave us 5% more displacement too.
I actually think the more realistic scenario is Porsche adds additional models. GT remains the "somewhat limited" track model but goes turbo or hybrid next generation. Especially with Porsche being focused on records and lap times, they won't be able to keep up with the times their competitions' next-gen models are setting if they stay NA.

They then add things like "heritage" editions, more akin to the 911R in terms of "special"-ness but more of them throughout the generation.

We're already likely going to see it with the 992. There are substantiated rumors of a Carrera RS (not GT RS) and some other heritage editions being added to the mix.

Think about it, people would still scoop up the GT cars, but their best customers would have a line out the door for the "special" NA cars.

I've also heard some rumors (from rather credible folks) that the 911 will go mid-engine soon (share a platform with the next-gen Huracan and R8 if the R8 isn't killed) and then we have a handful of special rear-engine heritage editions sprinkled in. Sounds like blasphemy at first, until you realize that the Audi group (VW group, I guess) is becoming more and more homogenous, sharing parts across platforms, maximizing profit AND that the RSR and some of the race-built 911s are already mid-engine because it was essentially required in order for Porsche to keep up with the rest of the competition in the class.
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      05-06-2020, 09:58 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Flacht3 View Post
I actually think the more realistic scenario is Porsche adds additional models. GT remains the "somewhat limited" track model but goes turbo or hybrid next generation. Especially with Porsche being focused on records and lap times, they won't be able to keep up with the times their competitions' next-gen models are setting if they stay NA.

They then add things like "heritage" editions, more akin to the 911R in terms of "special"-ness but more of them throughout the generation.

We're already likely going to see it with the 992. There are substantiated rumors of a Carrera RS (not GT RS) and some other heritage editions being added to the mix.

Think about it, people would still scoop up the GT cars, but their best customers would have a line out the door for the "special" NA cars.

I've also heard some rumors (from rather credible folks) that the 911 will go mid-engine soon (share a platform with the next-gen Huracan and R8 if the R8 isn't killed) and then we have a handful of special rear-engine heritage editions sprinkled in. Sounds like blasphemy at first, until you realize that the Audi group (VW group, I guess) is becoming more and more homogenous, sharing parts across platforms, maximizing profit AND that the RSR and some of the race-built 911s are already mid-engine because it was essentially required in order for Porsche to keep up with the rest of the competition in the class.
Yea Iíve heard this too. I guess I hope they stay NA as much as possible as long as possible.

Given Porsche is still top of the game for street cars, if they go mid engine for the street 911s itís all over for everyone.

The mid-engined RSR crushed everyone last year in IMSA GTLM so itís proven itself.

Last edited by Funf6cyl; 05-06-2020 at 10:13 PM..
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      05-06-2020, 10:35 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
Given Porsche is still top of the game for street cars, if they go mid engine for the street 911s itís all over for everyone.
As a 911 owner, I want to emotionally object to this. I love the handling characteristics of my 991. There are lots of mid-engined cars to choose from already. It may make the car better, but dammit, get your hands off my cheese.
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      05-07-2020, 07:59 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by N54Yankee View Post
Assuming you mean a C5Z, the C6Z offered so much more in the way of handling, braking and especially power and only weighed about 20lbs more then the C5Z. Everyone who reviewed the new Z said it was so much better then the C5Z. It was still ultra raw, lightweight and fully connected with vastly better stick and handling and so much more ferocious power delivery. Surprised you would have your started to get ruined opinion as it’s certainly in the minority. To each his own.
Yep, I had the option financially to buy a C6z or a C5z. I bought an electron blue/mod red C5z.

I wasnt a fan of the C6Z personally. It was a bit more refined, was absolutely disgusted with how GM handled the valve issue, and to be quite honest, it was no longer a FRC type model that stood out as totally 'no holds bar' design that stood so uniquely different from the white new balance jorts retired guy buying his retirement weekend car show persona.

With the C6z, yes, it performed better, but it was essentially standard coupe with wide fenders and a valve guide issue. I know, everyone says "just do heads and cam!". But what a sloppy mess by GM handling that.

Again, that's MY personal feelings. I just never got into the fanboy-ism of C6z's. And I was around/driven/worked on tons of them. I just preferred and really appreciated the breakthrough in technology the C5z offered to the car community at the time. When it came out in 2001, it was absolutely earth shattering in what it was able to accomplish and the rogue lengths that GM went to in order to get that car to perform the way it did at that time. To be fair, I actually prefer the C6 GrandSport over a C6z.

Last edited by tim99ws6; 05-07-2020 at 08:52 AM..
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      05-07-2020, 08:49 AM   #34
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Fair enough
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      05-07-2020, 08:57 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flgfish View Post
As a 911 owner, I want to emotionally object to this. I love the handling characteristics of my 991. There are lots of mid-engined cars to choose from already. It may make the car better, but dammit, get your hands off my cheese.
I agree here that I love the handling of the 911 as is. The balance of the car and the way it feels breaking away is sublime along with a myriad of other things that is does better than other performance cars. At the same time, the Boxster and Cayman are, from a chassis, balance, and dynamic standpoint, are world class, and that is an understatement. I donít even think that the Cayman GT4 as incredible as it is, gets more than about 50% of what they are really capable. If they went mid engined in the 911, and even if they donít go all out (which theyíd never do since they always hold back a ton) I think it would be something else.

I still love watching the 911, with its ďengine in the wrong placeĒ and relatively low horse power cars knock out much more powerful cars like the 600LT or ZR1 or showing them up when it comes to being a better driverís car.

Last edited by Funf6cyl; 05-07-2020 at 09:14 AM..
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      05-08-2020, 11:16 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by paliknight View Post
MSRP? No markup?
still all speculation. but porsche was very unhappy with ADMs. Champion Porsche scammed multiple people out of 2 million dollars. https://www.thedrive.com/news/23576/...buyer-deposits

they will be increasing GT car production.

economy is in the tank.

i think a loaded gt3 will probably be closer to 200k now than 150k though.
Loaded 991.2 were already 185-195. This will be 200+


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You would never know Porsche was unhappy with ADMs the way they let dealerships charge them at will.

I hope that's gonna be the case though. 200k fully loaded is going to be pretty steep. That's 991.2 RS pricing.


you can get 991.1 GT3RS cars for the same money or less than a 991.2 GT3
991.2 walks over the .1RS. Motor alone is in another league.


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The front/rear wheel size difference looks massive. Perhaps it's the camera angle but, I see 19" up front, 21" in back.
20" front 21" rear
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      05-08-2020, 11:53 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
I agree here that I love the handling of the 911 as is. The balance of the car and the way it feels breaking away is sublime along with a myriad of other things that is does better than other performance cars. At the same time, the Boxster and Cayman are, from a chassis, balance, and dynamic standpoint, are world class, and that is an understatement. I don’t even think that the Cayman GT4 as incredible as it is, gets more than about 50% of what they are really capable. If they went mid engined in the 911, and even if they don’t go all out (which they’d never do since they always hold back a ton) I think it would be something else.

I still love watching the 911, with its “engine in the wrong place” and relatively low horse power cars knock out much more powerful cars like the 600LT or ZR1 or showing them up when it comes to being a better driver’s car.
The thing is, they could go mid-engine and keep nearly the same proportions. It would still look like a 911. I'm not sure why that is such blastphemy. Every iteration of the 911 is more of a challenge to keep on top of other cars as far as performance. It's possible, it's called exotic engineering, and it just takes money to do it. You have to keep them getting ever-wider, add tricks like active swaybars, rear-wheel steering, and the list goes on and on, but the cost keeps going up and up at the same time. I think the hey-day of slinging the engine past the rear axle is gone. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples with the horsepower too, only dyno amounts matter, if porsche is advertising and making 500 at the wheels, it's definitely not the same as SAE at the crank. A 2017 Camaro ZL1 1LE bests a same-year 911 GT3 at "the ring" and it doesn't have nearly the extensive exotic-engineering feats to accomplish it. Power to weight, they are pretty close. Driver's videos show they can gnaw down on GT3s and it becomes a driver's race. If the 911 went mid-engine, it'd put some serious distance between cars like this.
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      05-10-2020, 07:16 AM   #38
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Couple of comments.

The new mandatory particulate filters were supposed to ruin the GT sound. Still sounds great in this video.

Isn’t the 992 supposed to get the ITB’s of the Speedster? Is it just me or is there not really a pronounced induction noise (as one might expect from an engine with ITB)
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      05-10-2020, 12:22 PM   #39
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Couple of comments.

The new mandatory particulate filters were supposed to ruin the GT sound. Still sounds great in this video.

Isnít the 992 supposed to get the ITBís of the Speedster? Is it just me or is there not really a pronounced induction noise (as one might expect from an engine with ITB)
Video is from 2018...Possible it doesn't have the OPF, and also possible it was an earlier engine before the ITBs.

If you listen to videos of the new Speedster, you can hear the effects of the OPF. It by no means ruins the sound...still sounds great...but you can tell it's there. Everything also points to US cars NOT having the OPF, which would be fantastic.

On a side note, as a "quarantine" project i just added BMC air filters and high-flowing long tube headers to my 991.2. The sound and feel is . Will be hard for me to justify the 992 as a worthy upgrade but let's see.
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      05-10-2020, 12:28 PM   #40
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Probably the most recent look we have at the exterior and sound. Video was taken just a few days ago.

And yes, it's a manual!
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      05-10-2020, 10:17 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
The thing is, they could go mid-engine and keep nearly the same proportions. It would still look like a 911. I'm not sure why that is such blastphemy. Every iteration of the 911 is more of a challenge to keep on top of other cars as far as performance. It's possible, it's called exotic engineering, and it just takes money to do it. You have to keep them getting ever-wider, add tricks like active swaybars, rear-wheel steering, and the list goes on and on, but the cost keeps going up and up at the same time. I think the hey-day of slinging the engine past the rear axle is gone. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples with the horsepower too, only dyno amounts matter, if porsche is advertising and making 500 at the wheels, it's definitely not the same as SAE at the crank. A 2017 Camaro ZL1 1LE bests a same-year 911 GT3 at "the ring" and it doesn't have nearly the extensive exotic-engineering feats to accomplish it. Power to weight, they are pretty close. Driver's videos show they can gnaw down on GT3s and it becomes a driver's race. If the 911 went mid-engine, it'd put some serious distance between cars like this.
Well, a Camaro doesnít beat a GT3 at the Ring. The GT3 was still faster despite the fact that it has less downforce and a worse power to weight. The GT3 ran 7:12.7 and the Zl1 7:16. That is still a pretty decent gap, especially when considering the better power to weight (6.15 bs 6.4 isnít that close) the Camaro has, and the fact that itís makes what 100% more torque too. No one said you need exotic feats to be fast...the viper ACR is proof.

As for ďdriver videosĒ, you donít know the skill level of both, so I donít usually put too much weight in those and focus on when a pro like Randy P can put each same day in his hands.

A 991.2 GT3 makes 450-460 rear wheel hp, at a 10% drivetrain loss that is just about exactly what Porsche states. A zl1 1LE makes about 570-58x wheel hp so itís right around itís stated power too if not just a tad bit more.

Furthermore, if you compare to a GT3 RS which doesnít make much power over a GT3, at 6:56 again is further proof that with low hp the 911 just lays down lap times that are next level. That time for 520 hp no other manufacturer could come close to.

I would bet the next GT3 (non RS) does under 7 min.
I donít think itís been a challenge for Porsche at all - and test results, both objective and subjective would tell a completely different story. They still have pretty low hp numbers and are still some of the fastest cars out there if not the fastest.

Once you hit about 75k, performance at and above that line is relatively flat so really youíre paying for other things. As far as programs, trickery, etc. everyone is doing it and will continue to do so. Itís part of the game.

Last edited by Funf6cyl; 05-10-2020 at 10:24 PM..
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      05-10-2020, 10:49 PM   #42
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Once you drive a GT3, anything that isnít an exotic will pale in comparison. Speed isnít everything. GT3 is the total package. And itís fast as shit.
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      05-18-2020, 10:00 PM   #43
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Interesting interview here with Frank-Steffen Walliser, essentially the guy in charge on future 911s. Essentially:

1// New EU restrictions in 2026 will be measured on putting a max power per displacement (a crazy, counter-intuitive paradox if you're trying to reduce emissions)
2// Since you can only have X power per litre, manufactures will likely need to go larger displacement vs. squeezing more power out of smaller engines
3// This means the 911 engine will likely need to get bigger, but still need turbos to meet emissions standards
4// I think this means we can expect the 992.1 or 992.2 to truly be the last NA GT3. Yes, he talks about the possibility of different engines in different markets but I don't honestly see that happening.

On the bright side, I do love that he says he'd love to somehow make the 911 smaller...
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      05-18-2020, 10:20 PM   #44
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Ill ask the question, why on earth does the car need more than 500HP? It's more than enough.
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