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      07-19-2022, 08:31 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H2O_Doc View Post
Although it's still warm, I've picked up an extra set of wheels as my M2 is a 4 season daily driver and I'll need an alternative to summer-only tires soon. But there's a catch. Discussions of cold tolerant tires often turn to snow/wet traction capabilities and rightly so in most cases. My needs are a little different, however. What I need isn't a winter (snowflake) tire per se as I won't take the M2 out if there is any appreciable chance of snow. And probably similar for rain. What I really need is the tire that can grip dry pavement the best in low temperatures to below freezing (say as low as -10° C but with most days in around 0-5° C). Most of my daily driving never elevates the tire temperature much (short trips). I've run Pilot All Season 4s and have been happy with them. The Continental DWS06 read like they are as good, maybe better. That said, reviews incorporate a variety of criteria that are less important to may particular interests (e.g. wet handling, light snow). So, if anyone has an opinion on a best or better option for a cold weather dry pavement tire that grips well, please advise.
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/miche...t-all-season-4
OR if you can make alternative sizes work...
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/michelin-crossclimate2
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      07-19-2022, 08:40 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
WHy are people not listening... HE DOESN'T NEED A WINTER SET.
I am. I posted because I happen to have an all season tire that is winter tire rated. So you get the best of both worlds. Obviously there's going to be some compromise due to this tire having to do everything. But so far with my real world use, I haven't run into any limitations yet. What people have said about winter tires, I agree. I have a set of Blizzaks WS80s mounted on winter wheels for my 135i. I've experienced the issues people have brought up about the big tread blocks in its affect on handling. I don't get any of that with the Cross Climate 2's. The way Michelin designed the tread on this tire creates the siping and grab needed to pull through snow. But the tread is stiff enough to not roll over during cornering or braking. I've had these tires up to triple digits in speed driving through a bend in the road without feeling as if I was going to slide off the road.

These tires are truly a game changer at least for me as I was going to buy another set of winter tires to supplement the all seasons I use in my daily. Now I'm just going to run the Cross Climates all year round.
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      07-19-2022, 09:27 AM   #25
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Maybe things have changed but for proper winter weather I found proper winter rubber leaps and bounds ahead of top of the line all seasons with a cold weather consideration, Like night and day. Biggest issue is as they wear the all season goes to shit in cold weather as the compound is just not soft enough.

Different need tot he OP though.
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      07-19-2022, 02:09 PM   #26
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No one is saying this new breed of all season tires that are winter rated are better than dedicated winter tires. But it works for those that live in environments where they're not in snow conditions for a good stretch of the year. And yes, the Cross Climate 2's have the snowflake mountain peaks icon on the sidewall.

You should check out the myriad of reviews online discussing these new bread of tires. They're not cheap but you save when you don't have to have two sets of tires and wheels.
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      07-19-2022, 03:12 PM   #27
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I've driven high end all season, mid range all seasons etc, in a full blown freezing winter with snow, ice, slush it's a completely different driving experience.
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      07-19-2022, 03:29 PM   #28
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We don't get many truly bone dry winter days up here. The roads always have a mild slime on them it seems. It must be their "winter road prep" junk whether it's brine or beet juice or whatever they use nowadays.

I have also commuted in non-RFT PSSs in March but definitely noticed the difference during freezing temp mornings. They never felt unsafe, but definitely felt hindered. Like, they wouldn't make a peep of noise near the limit, then just break away randomly depending on road surface.
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      07-19-2022, 03:33 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Just to throw some gasoline...

I bought my Z4 Coupe used in December 2014. It had 23,000 miles on the clock and had a fresh set of Michelin Pilot Sport RFT summer tires, which were the factory model tires. I drove the Z4 at least twice a week out from the woods where I live to N. Virgina on my previous daily drive. I drove it all winter of 2014/2015 on summer tires with zero attention to ambient temperatures on dry/wet pavement days (no snow).

I don't drive slow. And I get to drive on seriously good mountain roads everyday. I never had a issue with grip. I read all the time on this forum about how you can't drive on summer tires in the winter because of temperature and how all-seasons are a compromise in all seasons. Sorry, but I call BS.
I've driven a 370Z, F22, C7, and an A90 in cold NoVA weather with stock summer tires. It was possible with each car even when it was quite cold, but they all needed time to get the tires warmed up a bit if it was colder than around 40°F. Most of my driving consists of short trips at below freeway speeds, so they are slow to warmup if at all.

Yes, I could get by on summer tires for much of the winter, but grip would suffer on many days and I don't want to give up fun on those days. It's especially enjoyable because of the cold air hp boost.
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      07-19-2022, 04:10 PM   #30
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I ran Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 4 on my F23 all winter and it was great when dry. I tried taking them out in the snow and I think I posted a picture here about my F23 being stuck on the street and my e90 with proper snow tires being parked warmly in the garage.

The difference between the DWS and the AS4 is that DWS winter part wears out over time and the AS4 is consistent. I would not go back to a DWS from the AS4 but I'll probably go to something like the Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 this winter so that I can also drive safely in the snow with the top down
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      08-13-2022, 01:18 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Been running a set of Michelin Cross Climate 2's for a couple of years. Absolutely love these tires. They're all seasons but are winter tire rated. I've driven through all manners of conditions from hot summers to cold winters with snow on the ground. It's performed in all of these conditions.
I am ready to buy these tires for my X5. What is the noise and comfort level at the beginning and as the tire age?
Thank you
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      08-15-2022, 01:27 PM   #32
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i've run pilot sport AS3 all seasons on my F30 335i. It did fine in midwest winters. light snow isn't a problem and it has good enough performance for the summer months.

i have cross climates on my civic now. no issues.

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      08-15-2022, 01:58 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Been running a set of Michelin Cross Climate 2's for a couple of years. Absolutely love these tires. They're all seasons but are winter tire rated. I've driven through all manners of conditions from hot summers to cold winters with snow on the ground. It's performed in all of these conditions.
Love the Crossclimate 2’s. Also extremely well performing in wet conditions - perfect for Floridian tropical storms. Also love their “off-roady” look. Perfect tires for SUVs.
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      08-16-2022, 08:06 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias1973 View Post
I am ready to buy these tires for my X5. What is the noise and comfort level at the beginning and as the tire age?
Thank you
The tires are extremely quiet new. As they age, I've noticed some slight increase in noise but the Toyota C-HR I have them on isn't known to have a quiet interior cabin either. Still happy and satisfied with the purchase. I forget how many miles I have on them. But I think I've put 20k miles on them.
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      08-16-2022, 09:07 AM   #35
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Are these available in most cities?
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      08-16-2022, 07:06 PM   #36
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On my 1M I use Michelin X-Ice3s and they are INCREDIBLE on dry and on rain or snow. I have even changed them late into the spring and even feel great in warm weather. The ultimate winter tire.

IMO All-seasons are garbage on dry or wet in lower temperatures (or in ANY temperature lol)

In the past I loved Nokian Hakkapeliitta R2s for snow but they were absolutely garbage in dry and in warmer weather. Squishy and awful. Unusable for your purposes.

My winter setup on E9X M3 18s (M219s)
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      08-16-2022, 09:29 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
On my 1M I use Michelin X-Ice3s and they are INCREDIBLE on dry and on rain or snow. I have even changed them late into the spring and even feel great in warm weather. The ultimate winter tire.

IMO All-seasons are garbage on dry or wet in lower temperatures (or in ANY temperature lol)

In the past I loved Nokian Hakkapeliitta R2s for snow but they were absolutely garbage in dry and in warmer weather. Squishy and awful. Unusable for your purposes.

My winter setup on E9X M3 18s (M219s)
Sorry, there is no way Xi3 is as good on dry or in rain as a Michelin Pilot AS4 or even Pilot Alpin PA4. You can find European reviews that compare the various categories. Maybe at like -30 F or something where you hit the Tg of the AS4 compound. The Xi3 is the best on-road of that entire class, but that category is giving up a lot for snow and ice traction.

I am 90% sure that Michelin Pilot AS4 is the best if there is NO snow involved. That said, Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 on a cold dry day are closer to my PSS on a warm day than I expected if you did need some more snow capability.
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      08-16-2022, 10:44 PM   #38
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H2O_Doc - I would also advocate for PSAS4 in your cold-ish weather (snow/ice-less scenario).

I first got myself DWS06 after much reading here.
It is a great AS tire, but little too noisy for my (personal) taste when compared to PSAS4.

I cross 7,400ft summit at night, twice a week, often below 0C - PSAS4 does fantastic job on 335d, so as DWS06 on X5d.

---

On snow/ice days I:
- park my lovely E90 & E91 RWD's in garage (along with "sprinted driving")
- use my xDrive's with xIce tires and allow others pass me
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      08-17-2022, 06:30 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
On my 1M I use Michelin X-Ice3s and they are INCREDIBLE on dry and on rain or snow. I have even changed them late into the spring and even feel great in warm weather. The ultimate winter tire.

IMO All-seasons are garbage on dry or wet in lower temperatures (or in ANY temperature lol)

In the past I loved Nokian Hakkapeliitta R2s for snow but they were absolutely garbage in dry and in warmer weather. Squishy and awful. Unusable for your purposes.

My winter setup on E9X M3 18s (M219s)
Sorry, there is no way Xi3 is as good on dry or in rain as a Michelin Pilot AS4 or even Pilot Alpin PA4. You can find European reviews that compare the various categories. Maybe at like -30 F or something where you hit the Tg of the AS4 compound. The Xi3 is the best on-road of that entire class, but that category is giving up a lot for snow and ice traction.

I am 90% sure that Michelin Pilot AS4 is the best if there is NO snow involved. That said, Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 on a cold dry day are closer to my PSS on a warm day than I expected if you did need some more snow capability.
The original poster said 20-30F and yes the X-ice3s blow away any all season at those temperatures.

All seasons are fine for AWD cars that can deal with the loss of traction, but putting All seasons on a RWD car for the winter is totally non-advisable IMO. They aren't meant to be winter tires for that purpose—they are meant to be a compromise for those whose cars can make up for the temperature differences.

in a high hp/torque RWD car—it's not worth making compromises on traction IMO.
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      08-17-2022, 11:18 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
The original poster said 20-30F and yes the X-ice3s blow away any all season at those temperatures.
No, they don't. Sorry. I agree with you on getting winter tires overall etc., but testing by TireRack and several European mags show that those true snow tires like Xi3, WS80/90, etc. actually perform worse on a clear, dry, road in winter temperatures. Perhaps you mean to say summer tire not all-season. That is the only way it would be a correct statement.

Trying to find you data, but look here *on snow* how well the PSAS4 does against the X-Ice Snow (newer more extreme Xi3) ON SNOW.

https://www.tire-reviews.com/Article...X-Ice-Snow.htm

There is no chance the Xi3 stops better on a clear road unless we are below 0 F.

https://www.tire-reviews.com/Article...dded-Tires.htm

If you look at TireRack's test data for Xi3 vs Pilot A/S3+ or any recent AS tire you can see that even though it's not done on the same day, the AS tires brake and accelerate better in dry and wet. I have Michelin PA4 on my M2C and that definitely performs better than Xi3 outside of snowy conditions, and I would hesitate to put it up against the top AS tires on a completely clear road.

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      08-17-2022, 02:10 PM   #41
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I ran DWS06's on my ZHP and was happy with them. Good performance in the dry, great in the wet/cold. The one knock on them is relatively soft sidewalls, creating a less-crisp turn-in experience. Yeah, I could feel that difference, but on a street car, a comfortable cruiser at that, I actually liked it.

On my Golf R I now run PS4AS's and I've been VERY happy with them. Perform like a summer tire in the dry, while providing all the wet/cold benefits I need. I don't deal with harsh winters but we do get down into the 20's here and get occasional light snow. No problem for these tires at all, while still being great the rest of the year.
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      08-18-2022, 05:24 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by POBEP View Post
H2O_Doc - I would also advocate for PSAS4 in your cold-ish weather (snow/ice-less scenario).

I first got myself DWS06 after much reading here.
It is a great AS tire, but little too noisy for my (personal) taste when compared to PSAS4.

I cross 7,400ft summit at night, twice a week, often below 0C - PSAS4 does fantastic job on 335d, so as DWS06 on X5d.

---

On snow/ice days I:
- park my lovely E90 & E91 RWD's in garage (along with "sprinted driving")
- use my xDrive's with xIce tires and allow others pass me
Thanks much for the comments. Any thoughts on the width on the PSAS4s? I know that's a bit of a thread if it's own, but I'm wondering if going a bit wider will sort of buy back some of the loss of lateral grip that I'd get in the summer with a summer tire.
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      08-21-2022, 12:22 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H2O_Doc View Post
Any thoughts on the width on the PSAS4s?
I would be wrong person to advise on the width - I drive E90/E91/E70 which is not in any way comparable to your M2C.

On E90 I went with stock 225 front and 255 rear. In retrospective, a size up would be better: 235 and 265. 225 front is really narrow, especially for heavier M57 engine. Also, E90 was lowered by previous owner - I hope that future 235/265 set will give me slight height improvement.

Last week I had to take E91 with 225 (square) over the sierras (as E90 peed urea all over my driveway) - got slight slip at the same curves where E90 had no issues at similar speed with wider tires and lower setup.
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      08-21-2022, 02:03 AM   #44
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OP, watch the Engineering Explained episode on summer tire on a cold dry day.
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