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      02-23-2021, 01:54 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
In that particular case, I'd never buy an EV until I could justify a solar energy system. Is everyone in California paying more to drive an EV than a comparable gas vehicle? That would be hard to believe, since it would mean the MPGe figures for the EVs are brutally deceptive - like to the tune of 3x to 5x overly inflated.

In my case (and I suspect in the vast majority of cases) gas prices would have to fall below a buck a gallon for EV operating costs to approach those of an equivalent ICE vehicle.
PG&E has special rate plans for EV owners, it's all too complicated and inapplicable (to me) for me to try and figure it out. At peak times they charge up to $0.50 per kwh, judging by a friends model 3 that gets about 3-4 miles per kwh, that is the equivalent of getting up to 24mpg at $3 per gallon. Although it's almost as quick as my e92 that gets 12-15mpg at ~3.35-3.65/gal.

If you're judicious about charging you can pay half that rate, so almost 50mpg in terms of cost equivalence. Lots of people do it for the carpool stickers, autopilot features for Tesla, and performance. For most EV owners I've talked to the lower cost of fuel seemed like an added benefit rather than a main decision factor.
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      02-23-2021, 01:59 PM   #46
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I think he meant it has a gasoline generator that's only used to charge the batteries in order to drive the car via electric motor.
Like I say, the important part is that it's a PHEV which means it can be charged like a BEV and driven like a BEV for some distance after which it functions like an HEV. You're either burning gas or you're not, and you know how far/fast you can go before you have to.
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      02-23-2021, 02:04 PM   #47
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For most EV owners I've talked to the lower cost of fuel seemed like an added benefit rather than a main decision factor.
That I can certainly relate to. For me the far more compelling part is near-zero maintenance. Charging at home is also very convenient.
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      02-23-2021, 02:13 PM   #48
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That I can certainly relate to. For me the far more compelling part is near-zero maintenance. Charging at home is also very convenient.
Agreed, although I don't have one the maintenance and lack of warm up considerations would be the big factors. Depending on how much you drive, gas often costs as much or less than maintenance. Plus if I want to take the 335is on a 5-min errand (I don't, but say I did), it's a 5 to 10-min warmup because my oil thermostat is bypassed, and then the whole time it's still not up to temp so I'm pussyfooting it trying to keep it out of boost so I don't put any extra strain on my rod bearings. Then I park it and cry cuz it was only on for 10-15 minutes and I'm adding extra stress to the engine gaskets and valvetrain with a partial warmup and then another nearly-cold start and another partial warmup....

Meanwhile in the Tesla you roll down the driveway, floor it immediately, and if there's a supercharger at the store you come home with more charge than you left with.
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      02-23-2021, 02:48 PM   #49
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      02-23-2021, 09:45 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The J-Man View Post
I view it like this:
You buy an electric car today, you’re buying the worst example of an electric car that mankind will ever produce.

You buy an ICE car today, you’re buying the best example of an ICE car that mankind will ever produce.

The choice is simple in that context. I’m not buying another electric car until ICE is dead.
This post sums it up nicely for me. The EV use case is very narrow. EVs are not for me until all of my use case requirements are solved at an investment thesis that exceeds all alternatives. We just drove 4300 miles round trip through 8 states on mountainous roads in zero degree F weather, and spent multiple 14 hour + driving sessions with short overnight sleeps. We did it in luxury and comfort with an excess of interior space. No EV can do this today.

Congrats to GenXer on the purchase.
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      02-24-2021, 09:03 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The J-Man View Post
I view it like this:
You buy an electric car today, youíre buying the worst example of an electric car that mankind will ever produce.

You buy an ICE car today, youíre buying the best example of an ICE car that mankind will ever produce.

The choice is simple in that context. Iím not buying another electric car until ICE is dead.
I see what you mean, but I don't necessarily agree. I think personally the high water mark of ICE engine was late 2000's, when most engines were still NA. That is when things were truly special IMHO. You do have some great turbocharged engines these days of course, which technically make more power and are more fuel efficient, but in terms of pure emotions, it's going backwards.

I did read somewhere that we're not too far from manufacturers freezing ICE engine development at this point though, but I do think cars are more compromised than they used to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
I finally went and bought a plug in electric Chevy Volt.

It still has plenty of warranties left and still in excellent condition.

I opted to make a payment on it since interest is only 4.2%

My payment is $257/month
Insurance $50/month

Fuel and electricity will be the attractive end of this deal.

The battery only mode is good for 53 miles. If I can charge it at work too that would be ideal.

I still have 3 days to decide whether to get an all electric Bolt for $50 more a month as part of the deal.

But I've been known to leave my phone uncharged before and ran out of juice in the middle of the day. It's easier to charge a phone than a car and you can't call AAA to come and give you a splash of electricity. At least not yet.

I know the full electric camp will think it's half ass and the gasoline only camp will think it's a waste but I think it makes sense to me at this time.

I did have a chat with my electrician friend about installing a 220v charge port but since I can get away with 12 hours charging on 110v, I'm holding off for the time being. Plus I feel bad imposing on a friend.

But I'm digging the battery only mode. The 293lb-ft torque of this little car is addictive.
Wow that escalated quick, congrats. Can't really beat that price to experiment with. Look forward to your feedback as you use it. I think in your case, PHEV makes more sense since you have a long commute.
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      02-24-2021, 11:09 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The J-Man View Post
I view it like this:
You buy an electric car today, you’re buying the worst example of an electric car that mankind will ever produce.

You buy an ICE car today, you’re buying the best example of an ICE car that mankind will ever produce.

The choice is simple in that context. I’m not buying another electric car until ICE is dead.
I don't see it either. First electric car was built in the late 1800's, there was also the GM EV1 in the 1990's. Even the Model S originally had options of 206 or 265 mile range. Today's EV is not the worst EV's ever produced.

To me it only matters when I compare the ICE to EV I can buy today. The fact that the EV will get better doesn't matter.

I also agree with the above that today's ICE is not the best ever produced.
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      02-24-2021, 11:15 AM   #53
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Quote:
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This post sums it up nicely for me. The EV use case is very narrow. EVs are not for me until all of my use case requirements are solved at an investment thesis that exceeds all alternatives. We just drove 4300 miles round trip through 8 states on mountainous roads in zero degree F weather, and spent multiple 14 hour + driving sessions with short overnight sleeps. We did it in luxury and comfort with an excess of interior space. No EV can do this today.

Congrats to GenXer on the purchase.
I call BS on this. Cars have already gone past the point where they are too complex for the long run. There's no way the electronics are going to be working or available for repair 10 or 20 years down the road. The much more specialized and exotic parts that are commonplace now won't be available. We might have the best "performing" cars out of the box right now, but we've already crossed over the line where these are not going to last the long-haul like older 500,000 mile toyotas. The crazy complication of cars with their electrical systems and computers in addition to eeking out every little HP and torque has pushed us past that point.
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      02-24-2021, 11:36 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
I call BS on this. Cars have already gone past the point where they are too complex for the long run. There's no way the electronics are going to be working or available for repair 10 or 20 years down the road. The much more specialized and exotic parts that are commonplace now won't be available. We might have the best "performing" cars out of the box right now, but we've already crossed over the line where these are not going to last the long-haul like older 500,000 mile toyotas. The crazy complication of cars with their electrical systems and computers in addition to eeking out every little HP and torque has pushed us past that point.
JamesNoBrakes thanks for the post. What are you calling BS on, in the quote you posted?
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      02-24-2021, 11:40 AM   #55
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JamesNoBrakes thanks for the post. What are you calling BS on, in the quote you posted?
The person I quoted was agreeing that we were at "the best ICE cars". I am disagreeing, unless you are just concerned about all out performance for a few months, we've already sacrificed long term reliability for that.
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      02-24-2021, 01:20 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by W/// View Post
Wow that escalated quick, congrats. Can't really beat that price to experiment with. Look forward to your feedback as you use it. I think in your case, PHEV makes more sense since you have a long commute.
Actually, I've been thinking about this for a while.

Before I decided to buy my Tahoe, gas was less then $2 a gallon. This is my 4th new Tahoe since 2000. I bought all of them with GM discount and when it came time to sell, they always held their value especially when fuel price was cheap. I either made money or break even after driving it for a couple of years. Then came the gas price hike and I couldn't give it away.

I still love the Tahoe but fuel price continues to climb and will likely reach $3 this summer. Now the vehicle will be used for weekends and vacation. Both of which it's well suited.

I did go into the dealer with an open mind and I was test driving a few vehicles they have on the lot.

The list included a Honda Clarity PHEV which to me felt like an old man's car. It was maroon metallic with tan Alcantra dash. It drove like an old Buick and the ICE sounded like it was a Harbor Freight generator. The Honda was much more expensive too but it looked much better in picture than in person.

The second car I drove was the Chevy Volt. I always like the look of the Volt especially the 1st gen concept car. But I was disappointed when it came to production. It wasn't near the looks of the prototype. Then come to find out the enormous price tag. When 2nd gen came around, it was still very expensive for the size and the technical spec. This car was never even on my radar for something to watch for. It didn't have a charge and the salesperson didn't explain much about the car. I press the accelerator while in park and absolutely nothing happened. Then after a while the ICE came to life and again I pressed the pedal --- still nothing. I actually push the start/stop button twice thinking it was still off. Which brought up the start up screen. There wasn't much of a sensation that it was even able to drive. But I put it in gear anyway and took off. By this time there was very little electric miles left so I only got to experience the EV driving while under 30 MPH. The ICE did kick in but didn't really make any sound like it was idling while going 60MPH. I was impressed with the handling and very impressed with the ride quality. It was a lot more isolated than my Hyundai Ioniq. The Volt was pretty laid back at 75MPH too. The interior was quite pleasant but very tight in the back. They should have just called it a 4 seater instead of trying to sneak in that 5th seat belt.

Lastly, I drove the Chevy Bolt. I like the airy feel of the interior but not too keen on the fit/finish and material choice. From the outside it looked like a car for the 20 year old crowd. The one I drove was bright blue metallic. The interior looks like it was designed for a 16 year old girl -- Pearly white sparkle dash with pearl white trim. Real fancy.

Then I hit the accelerator pedal and WOW!

The tires were spinning and chirping from the stop light. Then you hear that electric motor whirl and it throws you back in the seat. This pseudo crossover was a blast for driving through the neighborhood streets. There was about 150 miles charge on the gauge but my 15 minutes of spirited driving took it down to 100 miles range in 20 minutes and I know I didn't drive 50 miles in 20 minutes. After I drove until the gauge said 75 miles to empty, it was time to return to the dealership.

I was debating the range and charge port arrangement for quite some time. I ended up picking the volt based on looks and practicality alone. The all electric Bolt 200HP electric motor was intoxicating but the rest of the car was just too cutesy. It was roomy but there isn't an ounce of sporty feel to it.

I was able to get permission on charging at work, now I just have to make arrangement on where and how.

Sorry for the long winded post. But I hope this is helpful for someone in the same situation as me.

Last edited by GenXer; 02-24-2021 at 01:32 PM..
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      02-24-2021, 07:20 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The J-Man View Post
I view it like this:
You buy an electric car today, you’re buying the worst example of an electric car that mankind will ever produce.

You buy an ICE car today, you’re buying the best example of an ICE car that mankind will ever produce.

The choice is simple in that context. I’m not buying another electric car until ICE is dead.
Isn't that just a half empty vs half full argument? The best Ice and the best EV is the one that fits your needs the most for the current situation. There are times I want to drive my EV and there are times I want to drive my ICE.
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      02-24-2021, 08:49 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
So when does an all electric vehicle make sense?
A: EVs make sense when you're buying them because of emotion instead of logic.
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      02-24-2021, 11:54 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
So when does an all electric vehicle make sense?
A: EVs make sense when you're buying them because of emotion instead of logic.
If I was buying for emotion I'd be driving a Ferrari.
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      02-25-2021, 07:23 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier View Post
A: EVs make sense when you're buying them because of emotion instead of logic.
Makes me laugh to see this on a BMW forum.
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      02-25-2021, 08:16 AM   #61
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Quick update

The used Volt that I bought had its charging cord stolen so the dealer is ordering me a replacement. I also bought a more robust portable home charger that can charge up to 16amps for 110-220V.

Last evening, I plugged the charger into the outlet and it was drawing roughly 4 Amps. This was going to take over 18 hours to charge so I went into the car charging menu and set the charge limit to allow for 12 Amps charging. It wasn't more than 15 minutes and the breaker tripped. It tripped a couple more times. As I found out, my garage breaker is only 15 amps. Fortunately I had a dedicated 30 Amp 110V RV outlet installed so I had to go buy an RV to NEMA 6-20 adaptor to make it work. Finally, it was drawing over 11 Amps and would be able to fully charge by morning.

As a side note, the charging cord anti theft works by turning on the car alarm when it's unplugged without unlocking the car. A very cool feature to have for protecting your expensive portable charger.

I was also able to register my car to Onstar for a year of free service which will let me "Precondition" the car, remote lock/unlock and see the charging status. Very cool stuff indeed.
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      02-25-2021, 12:44 PM   #62
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I was a pretty early adopter. We've had a 2013 Nissan Leaf for 4 years now. It's the best around-town car I've ever had. Extremely inexpensive, zippy enough and lots of room.
Our power in the PNW is CHEAP. $0.08/KWh. Regular unleaded is roughly $2.85 right now.
It's in the ballpark of 120 MPGe. Additionally, with regenerative braking, I never use the brakes. The ONLY maintenance to perform is coolant. However, an electric car is much easier on coolant, so it's a non-issue. Literally plug it in and forget about it. No trips to the gas station.
The technology is 100% superior if you can get it to fit into your life. We have another vehicle we use for road trips and towing. Electric cars are the perfect commuter car/2nd vehicle.
Edit: I don't understand why some people rail on electric vehicles. They aren't for everyone, but I've never met someone who purchased an electric vehicle and decided it wasn't for them. There's too many benefits for the few downsides.
Instant torque.
Fewer moving components = great reliability
No emissions testing (if applicable)
Quiet
The car doesn't need to be warmed up. Get in and drive however you need/want.
Convenient technology such as defrost/heater on a timer so that the car is warm (using house electricity) before you get in it.

Last edited by gilberjj; 02-25-2021 at 12:49 PM..
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      02-25-2021, 01:38 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
The used Volt that I bought had its charging cord stolen so the dealer is ordering me a replacement. I also bought a more robust portable home charger that can charge up to 16amps for 110-220V.

Last evening, I plugged the charger into the outlet and it was drawing roughly 4 Amps. This was going to take over 18 hours to charge so I went into the car charging menu and set the charge limit to allow for 12 Amps charging. It wasn't more than 15 minutes and the breaker tripped. It tripped a couple more times. As I found out, my garage breaker is only 15 amps. Fortunately I had a dedicated 30 Amp 110V RV outlet installed so I had to go buy an RV to NEMA 6-20 adaptor to make it work. Finally, it was drawing over 11 Amps and would be able to fully charge by morning.

As a side note, the charging cord anti theft works by turning on the car alarm when it's unplugged without unlocking the car. A very cool feature to have for protecting your expensive portable charger.

I was also able to register my car to Onstar for a year of free service which will let me "Precondition" the car, remote lock/unlock and see the charging status. Very cool stuff indeed.
30 amp 110v, if the Volt is at zero, how long for it to get a full charge?

I think this would be impractical with the Bolt.
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      02-25-2021, 02:09 PM   #64
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30 amp 110v, if the Volt is at zero, how long for it to get a full charge?

I think this would be impractical with the Bolt.
Yes, you really need a level 2 (240V) charger for an EV with 200+ mile range (50kWh+ battery) if you expect to be able to go from near empty to near full at home over night.
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      02-25-2021, 02:29 PM   #65
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Just wait 10 years until they make one that’s worth buying.
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      02-25-2021, 02:40 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by David70 View Post
30 amp 110v, if the Volt is at zero, how long for it to get a full charge?

I think this would be impractical with the Bolt.
The car will not allow any portable charger beyond 12 amps at 110V.
My portable charger is sending just shy of 12 amps but it can also send up to 24 amps at 220v.

I will run it empty tonight and let everyone know. I was told GM locked the amount of charge where it would never actually go to 0% or get to 100%
I noticed that when it ran empty but I was able to run on electric only at low speed.
So far, I am getting 45mpg on GAS -- HOLD mode.

Like mkoesel said, you will need a dedicated 220v Level 2 charger with a large capacity EV.
But since my car is only 18kWh it's not a big deal.

I have to say this is a whole lot different than many other PHEV. If you have some juice left in the battery, the gas engine will not even start at full throttle. The engine won't even try to run when parked.

Last edited by GenXer; 02-25-2021 at 02:55 PM..
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