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      02-19-2021, 11:47 AM   #23
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      02-19-2021, 12:05 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
"IT IS NOT FOR EVERYONE."

But it's going to be for everyone.

"Governmental pressure, environmental pressure, performance, pricing, and speed of improvement are all in EV's court."

I drive 24k miles a year. It should be extremely beneficial to me. But the energy cost savings as compared to a hybrid (even if the price of the vehicle was removed) is not significant.

Believe me I've been trying to justify the reason to buy another vehicle. I'm actually not used to having just one.

If I could find a cost savings benefit to this equation, it would be a lot easier to convince the other people in my family that I should get one.
The only reasons I could come up with are that it's cool, quick, quiet, unique. But that's not going to win an argument.
Clearly, the electric car is not aimed at you at all. Let's remember, they make more sense as city cars, not cars that are driven 100 miles a day IMO. Then you're adding things like ability to tow, charge fast ect ect...

For me, I can't justify electric cars yet because gas is hovering around $2.20 in SC right now. I currently daily a 2016 Toyota Tundra which gets around 13-14 mpg avg, but my commute is only 16 miles daily. So a car like a used BMW i3S would be awesome to have. But we'd both be lying to ourselves that electric cars save money at the moment. A beater car or used Prius would destroy this argument every day of the week. If you had the ability to charge at work for a low cost or free, that might make more sense.

I'm just interested in something I could turn the AC/heat from a phone, drive just a few miles and not care that engine oil hasn't come up to temp yet. I think we'll get cars that meet your requirements, but it's still years away

P.S. Also, $1k for brake service? I did all 4 corners of the Tundra for $180, gotta love it
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      02-19-2021, 12:50 PM   #25
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I think your best bet is a used Hellcat.
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      02-23-2021, 01:28 AM   #26
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I view it like this:
You buy an electric car today, youíre buying the worst example of an electric car that mankind will ever produce.

You buy an ICE car today, youíre buying the best example of an ICE car that mankind will ever produce.

The choice is simple in that context. Iím not buying another electric car until ICE is dead.
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      02-23-2021, 02:06 AM   #27
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You're comparing solely the operating cost of the SUV to the purchase + operating cost of an EV. Where's the part in this equation where you sell it after 80k and recoup ~30-60% of the $12k?
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      02-23-2021, 08:06 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Vivek. View Post
You're comparing solely the operating cost of the SUV to the purchase + operating cost of an EV. Where's the part in this equation where you sell it after 80k and recoup ~30-60% of the $12k?
The SUV is a given. I'm keeping it and it's going to be used to take the family around especially for vacation and camping trips. But it's the daily commute that makes it less attractive.
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      02-23-2021, 08:22 AM   #29
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I finally went and bought a plug in electric Chevy Volt.

It still has plenty of warranties left and still in excellent condition.

I opted to make a payment on it since interest is only 4.2%

My payment is $257/month
Insurance $50/month

Fuel and electricity will be the attractive end of this deal.

The battery only mode is good for 53 miles. If I can charge it at work too that would be ideal.

I still have 3 days to decide whether to get an all electric Bolt for $50 more a month as part of the deal.

But I've been known to leave my phone uncharged before and ran out of juice in the middle of the day. It's easier to charge a phone than a car and you can't call AAA to come and give you a splash of electricity. At least not yet.

I know the full electric camp will think it's half ass and the gasoline only camp will think it's a waste but I think it makes sense to me at this time.

I did have a chat with my electrician friend about installing a 220v charge port but since I can get away with 12 hours charging on 110v, I'm holding off for the time being. Plus I feel bad imposing on a friend.

But I'm digging the battery only mode. The 293lb-ft torque of this little car is addictive.
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      02-23-2021, 08:43 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
I finally went and bought a plug in electric Chevy Volt.

It still has plenty of warranties left and still in excellent condition.

I opted to make a payment on it since interest is only 4.2%

My payment is $257/month
Insurance $50/month

...

I still have 3 days to decide whether to get an all electric Bolt for $50 more a month as part of the deal.
I commend you throwing caution to the wind and taking the plunge. The Volt is great if you want that safety net. At the same time, the Bolt offers great value, and if you find you are not able to reliably charge at work (don't have a guaranteed place to charge every day, for example), you might offset a good chunk of that $50 savings in gas costs. Finally, even if you can charge, eking out the advertised 50+ miles electric range on a consistent basis might also be a challenge.

A monthly payment of $250 is pretty good. I will say that I've seen leases on leftover 2020 Bolts advertised at under $200. Also, a 4.2% loan rate is probably a bit higher than market average. My credit union has 2.25% and I don't think they are the lowest in the area. Admittedly, a couple percentage points is not going to have too big an impact on total loan value.

Edit: Worth a read:

https://electrek.co/2021/02/23/2022-...ts-toward-20k/

I don't mean to be negative - certainly not trying to crap on your deal and vehicle choice - just wanted to share some thoughts. Either way, good luck with the new ride.
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      02-23-2021, 09:33 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I commend you throwing caution to the wind and taking the plunge. The Volt is great if you want that safety net. At the same time, the Bolt offers great value, and if you find you are not able to reliably charge at work (don't have a guaranteed place to charge every day, for example), you might offset a good chunk of that $50 savings in gas costs. Finally, even if you can charge, eking out the advertised 50+ miles electric range on a consistent basis might also be a challenge.

A monthly payment of $250 is pretty good. I will say that I've seen leases on leftover 2020 Bolts advertised at under $200. Also, a 4.2% loan rate is probably a bit higher than market average. My credit union has 2.25% and I don't think they are the lowest in the area. Admittedly, a couple percentage points is not going to have too big an impact on total loan value.

I don't mean to be negative - certainly not trying to crap on your deal and vehicle choice - just wanted to share some thoughts. Either way, good luck with the new ride.
So far I've been able to get 50 miles out of the 53 EPA rating.

Unlike a regular plug-in hybrid, the Volt is actually an electric car with a very big generator. It can run in both parallel and serial mode. There are 2 electric motors and 2 planetary gears that can divert energy to whatever is calling for resource. There's no direct correlation between the engine RPM and the speed. It doesn't even turn on the gas engine even at full load. I do find that I spend a lot of energy for cabin heating. You can drive one pedal using the L gear or use high regeneration brake with a paddle. There are several modes that can be chosen that gives it distinct functions: normal, wasteful tire chirping mode (but lots of fun), mountain mode, and hold. I'm trying to burn up the left over gasoline in the tank and put in fresh gas. I don't think the gas engine ran all the much from the previous owner.

The advertise $200 a month is 10K lease. I drive 24K a year. The mileage upcharge is 15cents/mile which is $2100/year that makes the payment $375
It's 25cents/mile if you pay after the fact.


This car is inexpensive enough that I can afford to just pay it off. I haven't asked my credit union yet but the difference between 2.25% versus is 4.2% is $678 over the course of the loan.

The last time I threw caution to the wind was when I bought a new C7 Corvette and wrecked it with only 500 miles on the odometer.

I'm embracing the electric car lifestyle but only with one arm.

Last edited by GenXer; 02-23-2021 at 09:45 AM..
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      02-23-2021, 09:48 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
So far I've been able to get 50 miles out of the 53 EPA rating.
That's great to hear. Hopefully you find that you can do that on a consistent basis.

Quote:
Unlike a regular plug-in hybrid, the Volt is actually an electric car with a very big generator. It can run in both parallel and serial mode. There are 2 electric motors and 2 planetary gears that can divert energy to whatever is calling for resource. There's no direct correlation between the engine RPM and the speed. It doesn't even turn on the gas engine even at full load. I do find that I spend a lot of energy for cabin heating.
I definitely don't want to open up and consume that can of worms, but it's important to understand that all electric motors as configured in motor vehicles double as generators. Furthermore, most if not all contemporary plug-in hybrid vehicles can function in either dedicated electric or electric-assist modes.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a plug-in hybrid. As I say, it gives you that safety net. However, the technology is very commoditized at this point. From a user experience point of view you are going to get a vehicle that behaves like an EV regardless of which vendor you buy from. The Volt is (was) a great vehicle though, so I'm sure it'll provide you with everything you need.
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      02-23-2021, 09:53 AM   #33
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Seems like the Volt takes a big hit on mileage once you are powered by gas (42 mpg on highway) but I don't think there is any chance you will save $50 a month in fuel for the Bolt over the Volt, then you save in other places. Both do really well and the Bolt has the benefit of being cheaper and easier to maintain.
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      02-23-2021, 10:09 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Seems like the Volt takes a big hit on mileage once you are powered by gas (42 mpg on highway) but I don't think there is any chance you will save $50 a month in fuel for the Bolt over the Volt, then you save in other places. Both do really well and the Volt has the benefit of being cheaper and easier to maintain.
Yeah once you run out of battery juice, you're left with 3800 pounds of weight to move.

So far it's the best hybrid I've owned. This included both the VW Jetta and Hyundai. I do wish the previous owner splurged on the premium package. I could use a nice heated leather seat!
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      02-23-2021, 10:33 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
Here I am with the gasoline consumption blue. I drive 100 miles a day round trip and my fuel bill is about $300/month at $2.40/gallon.

Would I gain anything by getting a slightly used all electric car?

Assuming that it's $12K for a low mileage car and I pay cash for it.
At 40 months I'm just breaking even.

Would the fuel costs plus wear and tear on a big SUV to drive 80k miles justify an electric car?

Driving my SUV for 80K miles -- will need 2 sets of 22" tires $2800, brake service $1000, total fuel at current prices $9600. Engine oil/service $1000 - total cost $14,400

Driving an electric car for 80k miles -- Cost of the vehicle $12K, 2 set of tires $1000, brake service $1000, electricity cost ???

So when does an all electric vehicle make sense?
Right now the EV is best looked at as a short term vehicle of opportunity. You don't buy it unless you want to keep it for a long time, however federal tax rebates and state rebates are lowering residuals, so you have to take that into consideration. BMW inflates their residuals on the i3 lease. They also pass the $7500 tax credit to the consumer through a cap reduction unlike Kia (fk you Kia) My state also has a $2500 rebate and I get a $1000 rebate from my utility. Use these post sale rebates as a down payment (net $0 out of pocket), max MSDs, plus some shrewd negotiation stills to get 10-11% off and you get a $200 tax included monthly payment on a $55k EV for 30 months. That's a $6k cost for almost 3 years. I once did the math based on my KWh numbers on my electric bill vs the epa of my F80 M3 based on the gas prices at the time, which were higher back then and it came out to a savings of $0.09/mile or about $150 a month.

Tl;dr - my i3 is $199/mo tax included and paying for the electricity to charge is still $150/mo cheaper than using my M3 to commute.
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      02-23-2021, 10:40 AM   #36
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Quote:
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I don't think there is any chance you will save $50 a month in fuel for the Bolt over the Volt, then you save in other places.
Maybe not. It really does highly depend on geography, traffic, and general driving style. Also, as I said, for a longer commute with a PHEV, a consistently available charger at work could be key to realizing low operating costs. I should add that if he's hitting 50 miles electric with the Volt right now, he's probably not in a colder climate (just a guess), so that should help.
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      02-23-2021, 10:50 AM   #37
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I'm $307/month insurance included. I will be able to tell about my electric/gas usage next month.
I have a feeling my gasoline cost for the month will be the same as 1 fill up on my Tahoe. $65-$70

The electric cost will be unknown. I think my rate is 10cent/kWH
In essence, how much does it costs to drive 1000 miles on electricity?

Last edited by GenXer; 02-23-2021 at 10:56 AM..
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      02-23-2021, 10:51 AM   #38
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For me, an electric vehicle makes sense as a 2nd, back and forth daily daily driver.

I don't see an EV as a primary vehicle just yet, with sufficient space and capable of long drives. So the primary vehicle at the moment is BMW X5.

Waiting for more details about the upcoming BMW i4.
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      02-23-2021, 12:04 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
I'm $307/month insurance included. I will be able to tell about my electric/gas usage next month.
I have a feeling my gasoline cost for the month will be the same as 1 fill up on my Tahoe. $65-$70

The electric cost will be unknown. I think my rate is 10cent/kWH
In essence, how much does it costs to drive 1000 miles on electricity?
It will be very easy to calculate on your next bill. Just look at the $/kWh rate then use the average kWh on your vehicle. The i3 displayed this info in the idrive and in the Connected app. Just be sure to change your plan to a tiered plan if available and charge off peak hours.
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      02-23-2021, 12:58 PM   #40
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I'm negotiating with the accountant so I can plug my car in for a nominal fee.
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      02-23-2021, 01:21 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
I'm $307/month insurance included. I will be able to tell about my electric/gas usage next month.
I have a feeling my gasoline cost for the month will be the same as 1 fill up on my Tahoe. $65-$70

The electric cost will be unknown. I think my rate is 10cent/kWH
In essence, how much does it costs to drive 1000 miles on electricity?
Use the calculator, change the inputs to what you want, adjust for your rate -

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find...tion=sbsSelect
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      02-23-2021, 01:25 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
I finally went and bought a plug in electric Chevy Volt.

It still has plenty of warranties left and still in excellent condition.

I opted to make a payment on it since interest is only 4.2%

My payment is $257/month
Insurance $50/month

Fuel and electricity will be the attractive end of this deal.

The battery only mode is good for 53 miles. If I can charge it at work too that would be ideal.

I still have 3 days to decide whether to get an all electric Bolt for $50 more a month as part of the deal.

But I've been known to leave my phone uncharged before and ran out of juice in the middle of the day. It's easier to charge a phone than a car and you can't call AAA to come and give you a splash of electricity. At least not yet.

I know the full electric camp will think it's half ass and the gasoline only camp will think it's a waste but I think it makes sense to me at this time.

I did have a chat with my electrician friend about installing a 220v charge port but since I can get away with 12 hours charging on 110v, I'm holding off for the time being. Plus I feel bad imposing on a friend.

But I'm digging the battery only mode. The 293lb-ft torque of this little car is addictive.
The VP I work under has a Bolt and one of the senior managers has a Volt. Guy with the Volt has about 2x the commute distance (if not more). I think the Volt makes a lot of sense for your usage. I know in his situation it sends an email every month saying "you drove xxxx miles and only used x.xx gallons of gasoline!"--unsure how this works if you buy used.

One thing to consider is that another friend of mine calculated that charging his PHV at home cost more per mile than just putting gas in it, even at ~$3 for regular here in CA (our electricity cost is 2.4-3.8x the 0.10/kwh figure you posted, though: https://www.pge.com/pge_global/commo...icing-2020.pdf).


How much did it end up costing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I definitely don't want to open up and consume that can of worms, but it's important to understand that all electric motors as configured in motor vehicles double as generators. .
I think he meant it has a gasoline generator that's only used to charge the batteries in order to drive the car via electric motor.
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      02-23-2021, 01:41 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by cfm56d7b View Post
For me, an electric vehicle makes sense as a 2nd, back and forth daily daily driver.

I don't see an EV as a primary vehicle just yet, with sufficient space and capable of long drives. So the primary vehicle at the moment is BMW X5.

Waiting for more details about the upcoming BMW i4.
Agreed. My EV is a supplement to my wife's SUV, my M3 CS, and my beater. We like to take road trips and light off roading where there are no chargers so we always take the SUV. I like to track twice a month so I take the M3 CS. I have a beater that my mother uses and she doesn't have the means to charge an EV. The EV was only commuting. Now that I work from home though, it rarely gets used except for errands. I'm thinking of putting it on swapalease. For $200 I think it will get gobbled up in no time.
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      02-23-2021, 01:42 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivek. View Post
One thing to consider is that another friend of mine calculated that charging his PHV at home cost more per mile than just putting gas in it, even at ~$3 for regular here in CA (our electricity cost is 2.4-3.8x the 0.10/kwh figure you posted, though: https://www.pge.com/pge_global/commo...icing-2020.pdf).
In that particular case, I'd never buy an EV until I could justify a solar energy system. Is everyone in California paying more to drive an EV than a comparable gas vehicle? That would be hard to believe, since it would mean the MPGe figures for the EVs are brutally deceptive - like to the tune of 3x to 5x overly inflated.

In my case (and I suspect in the vast majority of cases) gas prices would have to fall below a buck a gallon for ICE vehicle operating costs to approach those of an equivalent EV.
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