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      08-01-2019, 11:45 AM   #111
Paolo B
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Hi Robi, thanks for the advice regarding changing cylinders in pairs. I will keep that in mind if I decide to first change the cylinders. I'm still a bit confused as to whether I should first have the hydraulic unit rebuilt or change the two cylinders. Your earlier comment leads me to believe I may want to replace the two cylinders first. I'd hate to replace or rebuild the hydraulic unit if nothing is wrong with it. Thanks also for the advice regarding the solenoid. I thought it might be a cheap option to pursue however it doesn't sound like one of the three solenoid valves is the source of the problem. I have a video of the roof in motion with the problem. Let me know if I can send it to you for viewing as that might help diagnose the problem. I'm not sure how to post a video but I could send to you via whatsapp. Let me know, thanks. Paolo
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      08-01-2019, 01:38 PM   #112
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I don't use WhatsNever stuff :-)
Can you store this video on Youtube or on any other public share? Then it's easy to post only a link into this thread.

Why not sending the video to Klaus as well for a first diagnosis?
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      08-01-2019, 05:23 PM   #113
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Hi Robi, Ok, I've never posted to youtube but will look into it and try to do that. I did share the video with Klaus and he wasn't able to really come to a conclusion. He suggested it could be a cylinder or possibly a deteriorating hydraulic unit but difficult to say for sure. Your previous response about changing cylinders in pairs made me think about something. I checked my repair statement from BMW and it states they installed part numbers 543777220536, 54377311084 and 54377223332 which is the hydraulic harness, lines and wires. However further down in the statement it says "replaced right side hydraulic lines and harness assembly to roof shell cylinders". Does this mean they only changed the right side? If so, why didn't they give me the left side of the harness if I paid for it? Could the problem be associated with the fact that I have a new harness on the right side but an older harness on the left side? Similar to cylinders, should the harness be replaced on both sides at the same time otherwise an imbalance could occur?
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      08-01-2019, 05:36 PM   #114
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Well, that sounds curious.The harness is one single piece in a Y-form.

You can't separate it easily as you have to remove tapes and cut or un-pin and re-pin wires. But it might be an option to gain some time as the remounting takes about 3-4 hours on each side of the car.

In general, this doesn'n make any sense. And it could be the source of your current issue!
But it might have been an option for the dealer to make some money without having to work. If so, kick him into the ass!

I assume it's difficult for you to check if both sides were replaced. When was it replaced exactly?
But I remember a part of the harness that looks different between the old and the new one, so you should have a look at it as well.

If it looks different, you have to go back to the dealers...

Last edited by RobbiZ4; 09-18-2019 at 01:06 PM..
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      08-01-2019, 08:41 PM   #115
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Hi Robi, Personally, I think the BMW Service Manager is mistaken as I believe they changed the whole harness. The mechanic who worked on my car is on vacation and back next week. The manager said he will speak to him and get clarification on whether he replaced the whole harness or just the right side and he will let me know. If they replaced just the right side, then he owes me the left side. However, do you think that could be the source of the problem? Also, I thought I saw a picture that you posted of the entire harness but I couldn't find it. Maybe I saw it on a different post. Could you post a picture. The dealership gave me the old harness and I have it in a bag. I might try to lay it out on the floor to see if it matches the picture and determine if I have half or the entire harness. That should answer the question. I did the repairs last October and then drove the car for one week and put it away for the winter. I took the car out in mid April and the problem started. Very coincidental that the problem started right after I had it repaired and now they want to install a new hydraulic unit and possibly a cylinder. I have a feeling that the problem lies with their repairs. Not sure what I should do next, change the cylinders or change the hydraulic unit? Thanks again for your help. Paolo
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      08-01-2019, 09:10 PM   #116
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I took a picture of my old harness which the dealer gave me back but I don't know how to post a picture. Can you explain to me how I post a picture and then maybe you can tell if it is just half the harness or the whole one. Thanks.
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      08-02-2019, 02:38 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paolo B View Post
Can you explain to me how I post a picture and then maybe you can tell if it is just half the harness or the whole one. Thanks.
As already written, the harness has a Y-structure, each side has a length of about 3m.

Uploading pictures is a bit complicated:
  • Click on the attachments button (paper-clip symbol), a popup will open
  • Select a file to upload by one of the BROWSE buttons
  • Press the UPLOAD button on the right
  • Scroll to the bottom and press CLOSE THIS WINDOW
  • Place the cursor into the line where you want to place this picture
  • Click on the arrow symbol next to the paper-clip button
  • Select your uploaded picture
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      08-02-2019, 03:39 PM   #118
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Hi Robi, thanks for the instructions on posting pictures. I will try to post a picture for you. I'm also going to try to open a Youtube account and post a couple of videos so that you can possibly give me advice on what the problem might be. Thanks again.
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      08-02-2019, 03:50 PM   #119
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Picture of my harness

Name:  Top Harness.jpg
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Size:  342.7 KBName:  Top Harness.jpg
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Size:  342.7 KB
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      08-02-2019, 04:15 PM   #120
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Ok Robi, I think I saved one video to youtube. Hopefully I've done it correctly. Please see the url:
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      08-02-2019, 05:39 PM   #121
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Wow!

1) They cut the old as well as the new harness. I have to look at these pics tomorrow on my notebook.
The "thicker" part on the bottom of your picture seems to be a half of the replacement harness! In that case it got split by the garage in a manner that never has been recommended by BMW.

Could you please separate this part with the thick brown wire (window heating) from the rest and post another photo?

2) That looks crazy in the video! What about the stops? Do you stop manually or does the roof stop several times?

Last edited by RobbiZ4; 08-02-2019 at 06:00 PM..
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      08-02-2019, 06:49 PM   #122
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Hi Robi, I will take a couple of photos and post them. Regarding the video, my wife is stopping the movement on my request because when this "out of sequence" movement starts, on a couple of occasions it has landed hard on the roof panel and scratched it. We were trying to prevent that from happening. I will post a video commencing when first trying to open the roof. From that perspective, you really can see clearly how the left side movement commences a split second prior to the right side. It almost seems like the right side is sticking. When the movement starts that way, I stop the motion, reverse and start again. It will then often work properly. This only seems to happen every 5 or 6 times that I operate the roof. Seems to happen in particular when its hot out and maybe the seals stick more requiring the pump to work harder. Is this possible? Anyway, I'll post a video and show you. Thanks again. Paolo
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      08-02-2019, 07:20 PM   #123
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      08-02-2019, 07:21 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paolo B View Post
I believe these are the lines with the ruptures.
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      08-02-2019, 07:24 PM   #125
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      08-02-2019, 07:25 PM   #126
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      08-03-2019, 02:59 AM   #127
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Ok and thanks, now I understand the video and of course, can see the malfunction of the roof.

On the 2nd picture the upper harness is a brand new part(!) of the complete Z4 roof harness. As described earlier, you can identify it by the "45 degree tape area" on the right. The lower part seems to be cut off anywhere.

What did they charge for this partial replacement, as you had to pay the complete expensive harness anyway?


The key pic from your video:
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With seal behavior on higher average temperatures Klaus from TopHydraulics has much more experience.

In Germany we dont't have issues with the hydraulic cylinders up to now. But Klaus told me about it on the phone, that the US Z4's (ok, Canadian in your case) will earlier run into these problens.

I assume, there is a problem with the hydraulic cylinders in the roof shell and I recommend to get both replaced (always replace parts of the roof symmetrically!!).

AFAIK TopHydraulics charges 200 bucks for a single refurbished one. BMW has rised the prices for new hydgraulic cylinders month ago and we have to pay about 600 EUR for a new one.

Replacing the cylinders is quite easy and should be done in about 2 hours by someone, who's already experience with that roof.

- remove the rear roof shell by removing 6 screws mounted with loctite, so each one must be heated to loosen
- replace these 6 screws by new ones, there is a BMW set for about 25 EUR available
- take 4 new O-rings 3.4x1.0 mm (alternatively you can use 3.3x1.0 mm as well) for the 4 hydraulic hoses to be unmounted off the cylinders
- replace both cylinders and a couple of tie zips
- remount everything

I can do that for you on your next Z4 trip to Germany. :




By the way, you can add multiple pics to one single post using the attachment manager!

Last edited by RobbiZ4; 08-03-2019 at 05:19 PM..
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      08-03-2019, 07:08 AM   #128
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Hi Robi, thanks for the expert advice, I really appreciate it. What you are recommending makes complete sense to me and is consistent with my own belief. I've been confused by BMW's recommendation to first replace the hydraulic unit and then if that doesn't solve the problem to replace the right cylinder. I don't want to spend money needlessly and hence my reluctance to act up to this point. The total job cost US $1914.91 (see statement attached). The job was supposed to cost more because they initially quoted me on the 2008 harness price but when it came in they realized it was the wrong part so I had to wait an extra week to get the correct part then when they realized it cost more, they honoured the original quoted part price. If they only used part of the harness and I paid for it, they should be providing to me, the left-over parts. You mention that I have a couple of new hoses but I believe some pieces are still missing. Can you advise which ones as I'd like to ask the dealership for them. It appears to me that the left side hoses, like the ones that they replaced on the right side, are missing. I checked the two long ones in the picture and those two are ruptured so must be the ones they replaced so it can't be either of those. Your advice is appreciated. We do not have any independent BMW repair shops in my community but a good friend of mine is a retired GM mechanic and has a shop at his house and has worked on my car and he already had a look at the problem and his opinion was that it was in fact the cylinder. I believe he should be able to do the job for me. Regarding the instructions you provided, I took a look at the instructions on new TIS and they don't advise to remove the roof shell. Are the new TIS instructions correct? Also, regarding your recommendation to install four new o-rings, are those specific BMW parts or can I purchase any o-rings of that size? Regarding you doing the job, it has actually crossed my mind. I may be going to Italy next weekend for 2 weeks and I typically go every year. I retire next year and am thinking about shipping my car over as we may go for 2 or 3 months. We typically spend part of our time in Italy in Bologna and its only a 5 hour drive to Munich. My nephew works for Lamborghini by the way and I've toured the factory. Its a piece of art! Thanks for the information on how to post pictures and your general advice. By the way, are you an automotive engineer? Paolo

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      08-03-2019, 10:42 AM   #129
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Hi Paolo,

I' m an electrical engineer working as IT project manager. At the weekends I support my Z4 friends here in Bavaria.

As mentioned earlier, the new(!) harness part from the left side is, without any doubt, on one of your pictures. Have a look at my former posts.


It's the upper part on your following picture, brand new, cut off of the original new harness for 1.058 USD/ CAD you've paid for:


Both sides of this harness are connected in the middle (hydraulic pump area) with the salmon relay connectors to 1 piece, see my former picture. That has been cut by your dealer. That's unbelievable!

Mounting both sides takes about 8h, so he avoided an afford of 3-4h.

Last edited by RobbiZ4; 08-03-2019 at 05:18 PM..
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      08-03-2019, 11:17 AM   #130
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Thanks Robi, regarding the o-rings, will any of the size you referenced suffice or should I order from BMW.
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      08-03-2019, 11:18 AM   #131
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I'll be connecting with Top Hydraulics and ordering a couple of cylinders. This seems the most reasonable course to pursue initially, thanks again for your advice.
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      08-03-2019, 01:29 PM   #132
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The o-rings named above are exactly the parts I use for this purpose. The required quality is NBR70, forgot to mention it. This o-ring is so small, that it can be lost while trying to mount it. Buy some spare rings in addition!

BMW will not support you as they don't sell these parts separately.
3.4x1.0 mm NBR70 is the exact size, 3.3x1.0 NBR70 can be taken as well for it. TopHydraulics might deliver them as well, just ask Klaus for it.

The BMW dealers strategy is easy to understand:
1st, they don't have any experience (way better: no clue)
2nd they start to replace the most expensive part
3rd If it doesn't improve anything, they never unmount this part and won't take it back, U have to pay for their faulty decision
And so they will continue to melk you...


Btw, in general your BMW invoice seems to be ok!
They charged the complete harness and their time to mount only the right side. So far no fraud /deception.
But it's a pity that they didn't mount the complete harness. Don't throw the 2nd part away (the one with the 45 degree tape line), as the hydraulic hoses on the left will break sooner or later as well!

Your problem with the hydraulic cylinder on the right seems to be completely independant of your former hydraulic leak! And it's in line with the explanations I got fom Klaus Witte, TopHydraulics about weak seals in the cylinders.

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