World War...SUV (BMW X7, X8, CS II)

[Harold Wood]

All sounds good to me

[ATX78703]

X7 does sound like a good idea, and that has been toyed around a lot. They do need a full-size 3 row GL competitor. the 3rd row on the X5 is just not overly practical.

[secretsquirrel]

Originally Posted by ATX78703

X7 does sound like a good idea, and that has been toyed around a lot. They do need a full-size 3 row GL competitor. the 3rd row on the X5 is just not overly practical.

I agree. The X5 is small for a family of 4 or 5 with a dog or two and luggage.

[Matski]

I've defended BMW on the internet, more times than I care to remember, in the face of criticism for "dilution" of the brand, spreading themselves too thin, or moving away from the core strengths. I totally get that BMW needs to focus on profits, and I totally get that traditional demographics are shifting - living in the UK I appreciate we're lucky that so many many manufacturers bother to bring such a variety of vehicles to our RHD market, but I strongly sense Americans struggle comprehending that they are not necessarily the number one focus any more.

I have nothing against any of the proposed models above. My preference would be an L7 akin to stretched 7-ers of old, and an X7.

But, and this is where my problem lays... how sustainable is this number of models over the next 25 years (or 3 generations)? I agree with giving your customers choice so therefore I'm not bothered that in some cases these models will simply be canibalising sales of existing models, but can the company really sustain the manufacture, service and support for such a wide range of vehicles - especially when catering to less stable financial times and markets - and markets which given so much choice may flit from one brand to another?

All this while not offering some of the performance orientated models that some customers desire: new generation M1, high(er) performance M3 and M6 models (CSL, GTS) for more markets or in higher numbers, Z4 performance variants (GT3?).... and at the same time reducing BMW Motorsport involvement to simply GT3 customer teams and the DTM (no touring cars, no prototypes, no open wheelers...)

So within the next 2 years BMW groups range will have swollen to this,

Mini Hatch
Mini Convertible
Mini Countryman
Mini Countryman Coupe
Mini Coupe
Mini Roadster
Mini Clubvan

1 GT / FWD 1-er
1 3dr Hatch
1 5dr Hatch
1 Coupe (2-er ?)
1 Convertible (2-er ?)
3 Saloon
3 Tourer
3 GT
3 Coupe (4-er ?)
3 Convertible (4-er ?)
3 Li
5 Saloon
5 Tourer
5 GT
5 Li
6 Coupe
6 Convertible
6 Gran Coupe
7 Saloon
7 Li
X1 SAV
X3 SAV
X4 SAC
X5 SAV
X6 SAC
Z4

i3
i8

Rolls-Royce Ghost
Rolls-Royce Ghost LWB
Rolls-Royce Phantom
Rolls-Royce Phantom LWB
Rolls-Royce Phantom Drop Head Coupe
Rolls-Royce Phantom Coupe

.. yes I know I've still ignored some speculated models..

And still they want add further models?

Don't get me wrong, the more the merrier from my point-of-view, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool BMW fan, I'll admit that, but SCOTT, I ask you, when will BMW draw the line? When do they work on improving what they've already got, rather than just adding to it?

[Tallest]

Regarding SUV's and Bentleys and so on, CAR magazine had a good article the other day which I fully agree with...

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Communi...-only-market-/
Note to car industry: China isn’t the only market
By Greg Fountain
Analysis
27 April 2012 07:00

Nothing against China but it seems to me its influence over the car industry is becoming problematic. The world’s great car makers allowing Chinese tastes to dictate the conception and production of their cars is rather like the world’s great restaurants developing menus entirely to please Americans, merely because there happen to be a lot of them. The fact that these menus have no culinary merit and will disgust anybody with a functioning palate (ie, Europeans) is deemed inconsequential. They’ll just have to lower their standards and put up with the dross served up.

But of course they won’t put up with it. Instead they’ll stop going to restaurants and will instead start learning to cook fabulous meals at home, and then some of them will start their own small restaurants and people will start to notice. And these small restaurants will grow and the old restaurants serving US-spec slop will close, because nobody wants what they offer. And then the small restaurants will become big and their massive overheads will mean they have to grow fast which means developing menus to please… the Americans. And round we go.

And what's this got to do with the Chinese car industry?

The annoying thing about all this is the fact that we’ve somehow sleepwalked into a situation where nobody can make a living unless they’re able to sell their wares in at least 142 markets. How did this happen? Why is it necessary for every organisation to be absolutely huge? Why can’t we build and sell cars locally?

Ferrari, for example, used to create scalpel-precise sports cars aimed at Italian men and, eventually, with a bit of a shrug, agreed also to take money from a few discerning men from neighbouring countries, provided that they came to Maranello to collect the car. Now Ferrari makes cars for Chinese toy exporters, Russian oil barons and Indian call-centre owners, none of whom have the slightest interest in the engineering genius, handling qualities, or cutting edge technologies on which Ferrari built its name and which are the whole point of owning one. Instead, they think they’re buying what is effectively a big hat – a sign stating that they are considerably richer than their one billion countrymen.

Reducing cars to the lowest common denominator

One day soon Ferrari may find that the spirit of Enzo lives on only in other small sheds peopled by other auto geniuses, and that Maranello will be regarded with no more devotion than the latest Geely plant in China (or one of those burger restaurants). And the same will happen to Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati… all of whom are currently tilting tat at the so-called BRIC markets (Brazil, Russia, India, China).

I call for global recalibration: can we please get back to building cars for discerning, knowledgeable, demanding consumers and then forcing those who don’t know or care to put up with the result? Rather than the other way around?

[elusivefx]

Its not a bad thing that more models will be created it allows more buyers to step foot into a bmw dealership due to more variety and selection. BMW is a smart company and they will not ruin what they have built this all is for the better i am sure. The idea of the X7 is amazing because I myself as well as my friends have always wished and hoped bmw would make a larger suv the x5 just does not cut it we need something larger, with all other automotive companies offering things like the LR4, Navigator, Escalade, BMW needs to step foot into the game with a larger suv so they can stop losing customers to other brand due to being to small. Also what bmw has started doing with making their cars more smooth and refined I believe is also a positive step because if you sit in a Land rover or a Mercedes, they tend to be more refined in that sense of how the suspension is. I believe everything BMW is doing is for the best and I am sure within time when these cars will be released the consumers and the critiques *cuz thats what we forum people are* will love them even more

[Judah]

I'm just looking for something from BMW with real third row seating or capable of seating six comfortably plus cargo....

GET ON IT BMW !

[OdomPHD]

Hmmm, I reserve judgment till more info is available. And a solid confirmation.

[M3_WC]

BMW is growing very fast. They have to, to keep up with the competition and ever growing sales numbers.

But they are no longer "special". I now see them as just another German automaker.

[bimmerJP]

If this is true, I have to say that BMW totally lost its way. They chose to develop some cars that can make more money instead of building more "the Ultimate Driving Machine". They chose not to develop an M super car for, well, I don't know what reason. A super car can make the car enthusiasts happy and yet, at the same time, better brand image. It will bring a lot more customers than those crappy things imo. BMW doesn't want to build the Ultimate Driving Machine anymore, but Ultimate Profitable Product.
Well, I hope Scott is wrong. At least I hope this is not coming true. Maybe 2012 is really the end of the world. The end of Bavarian Auto...

[uhn2000]

Don't see why this is a such bad thing for BMW - Porsche has 20+ variants of the 911 and they claim that each and every one of them has an ideal customer. Only difference is that they sell about 200k vehicles a year and BMW does close to 2million.

While I believe we are past the point of no return there is a brand exclusivity issue - people that want that just won't buy a BMW anymore. I know many friends that have abandoned the brand for that reason - maybe BMW does not care but its happening. People now more then ever are buying BMW's as their DDs and saving other brands for special/weekend warriors. I remember when my friend had an M3 back in 2002 (Laguna) it would not see a drop of rain let alone winter. I know ///M is attempting to differentiate as special but its a tough job for them.

With loss of brand exclusivity comes plummeting values of the high end range because they become disposable sheet metal that is good today and old tomorrow. Over time BMW will position itself to become the value brand of luxury using finance specials and great lease options to push volume. Driving a BMW will eventually become like owning a TAG watch "a good starter luxury watch" my jewelry buddy says.

I definitely do not disagree with what BMW is doing but be ready to take a sweet hit when it comes time to sell.

[AustinL]

Originally Posted by m630

CS II? Who is buying such a car? Why would anyone need an even larger BMW than a 7er? Im sorry but BMW board are way off here, there is no bridge between BMW and RR that a big BMW can fill, no one is buying $150K sedans from BMW

Yeahhhh right... BMW 760Li is for example here in Finland a bit less 300 000€ which is almost $400 000. Yeah not many has been sold here but try to remember the cars are ridiculously cheap in States.

[elusivefx]

Originally Posted by uhn2000

Don't see why this is a such bad thing for BMW - Porsche has 20+ variants of the 911 and they claim that each and every one of them has an ideal customer. Only difference is that they sell about 200k vehicles a year and BMW does close to 2million.

While I believe we are past the point of no return there is a brand exclusivity issue - people that want that just won't buy a BMW anymore. I know many friends that have abandoned the brand for that reason - maybe BMW does not care but its happening. People now more then ever are buying BMW's as their DDs and saving other brands for special/weekend warriors. I remember when my friend had an M3 back in 2002 (Laguna) it would not see a drop of rain let alone winter. I know ///M is attempting to differentiate as special but its a tough job for them.

With loss of brand exclusivity comes plummeting values of the high end range because they become disposable sheet metal that is good today and old tomorrow. Over time BMW will position itself to become the value brand of luxury using finance specials and great lease options to push volume. Driving a BMW will eventually become like owning a TAG watch "a good starter luxury watch" my jewelry buddy says.

I definitely do not disagree with what BMW is doing but be ready to take a sweet hit when it comes time to sell.

BMW is already like that tho, they push the best lease deals and they have great residuals value when compared to their competitors mercedes, audi, porsche, and the list goes on.

They are always $50-$100 less on a lease for a 3 series when comparing to a A4, or a C Class. and always $75-$125 less on a 5 when you compare it to a A6 or a E class, $ and hundreds of dollars cheaper when you compare a 7 Series it to a S class or a A8, XJ.

They know that 65-70% of new BMW's are not financed or paid in cash like other brands like Land rover, but are in fact leased. Their buyers are different and their volume is different than other brands.

I've got sales managers that are my friends at pretty much every new and used car dealerships and let me tell you.

Range rovers most people pay up in cash. Jags same thing.

When it comes to bmw's its mostly always a lease deal, or some sort of nice finance special .9 on cpo. what have you.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by elusivefx

BMW is already like that tho, they push the best lease deals and they have great residuals value when compared to their competitors mercedes, audi, porsche, and the list goes on.

They are always $50-$100 less on a lease for a 3 series when comparing to a A4, or a C Class. and always $75-$125 less on a 5 when you compare it to a A6 or a E class, $ and hundreds of dollars cheaper when you compare a 7 Series it to a S class or a A8, XJ.

They know that 65-70% of new BMW's are not financed or paid in cash like other brands like Land rover, but are in fact leased. Their buyers are different and their volume is different than other brands.

I've got sales managers that are my friends at pretty much every new and used car dealerships and let me tell you.

Range rovers most people pay up in cash. Jags same thing.

When it comes to bmw's its mostly always a lease deal, or some sort of nice finance special .9 on cpo. what have you.

Can't remember the numbers exactly but something like 20% of new BMW's are leased, this is the global retail figure, with USA accounting for about 30% of that, and China less than 10% (I guess this excludes Fleet). It's in the 2011 Financial reports if anyone has the time to sift through them! Eitherway, the least BMW's are being leased in the fastest growing market.

[HVYWGHT]

I wouldn't mind expanding into niches if BMW worked to preserve it's driving base. If they could dial back in everything that put them in their current position, then the more the merrier. But until the 3er drives like a 3er (I shouldn't have to spend money on restricted lines and mandatory electronic dampers and still always have to press a button to get the closest setting to "BMW" feel) and they stop just chasing sales, I don't agree with more and more.

When they make each core model the Ultimate Driving Machine again, then they can proliferate for the masses.

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by Diver

Pretty strange, all of this.

+1 doesnt seem to fit BMW new eco theme

I agree that X7 and X8 and CS would gen huge profits, but I still hate their idea

Keep the i8 the flagship, establish efficient dynamics as the new BMW, make a hybrid SUV

[elusivefx]

Originally Posted by Matski

Can't remember the numbers exactly but something like 20% of new BMW's are leased, this is the global retail figure, with USA accounting for about 30% of that, and China less than 10% (I guess this excludes Fleet). It's in the 2011 Financial reports if anyone has the time to sift through them! Eitherway, the least BMW's are being leased in the fastest growing market.

Not sure where you read that. But those stats are way off. My local dealership had put up stats of the percentages of how many 3's,5's, and 7's were leased and all models were way above the 60% mark, this stat was not created by the dealership this was made by bmw na, and was confirmed by midwest regional district head of sales manger, who's office is based out of minooka illinois.

[elusivefx]

Here's a full article on it:

http://blog.polk.com/blog/blog-posts...ything-you-see

[Harmander]

1) as long as bmw doesn't make a minivan and sticks to its heritage in the core models like the 3er and such I'll be ok. BUT if they make a minivan then well...it just won't be the same. (I hate minivans )

2) WHY didn't they make the 6GC look just like the CS, that thing is freakin amazing.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by elusivefx

Not sure where you read that. But those stats are way off. My local dealership had put up stats of the percentages of how many 3's,5's, and 7's were leased and all models were way above the 60% mark, this stat was not created by the dealership this was made by bmw na, and was confirmed by midwest regional district head of sales manger, who's office is based out of minooka illinois.

As I said, the data is published by BMW in their annual financial reports, this takes into account the global markets rather than just BMW of North America. I don't have the numbers to hand at the moment, so you may well be right, for the US at the least.

[TheBingoBalls]

TBH, I'm all for "specific-purpose" models (X7) but not a fan of "in-between" models (X4? and X6). I always thought the X5 was already big (maybe even too big?) But I didn't know there was a market or growing demand for something even bigger so I agree with BMW if they choose to go that route - worse thing is if they miss the opportunity and lose out to their competitors.

All this talk about bringing in new models/series is overwhelming on paper, I just want to see when they're finally available and see the reception of them (looking specifically at the 2 and 4-Series).

[AcidMal]

Wow, a very heavy article to read there.
All of it makes perfect sense, it's just sad that we will be seeing even more BMWs on the road soon. The brand has already lost a lot of its unique characteristics and is quickly becoming the every mans car. I think that BMW M devision will assume the previous role of its parent company and carry the name and heritage. Otherwise just a big ugly car selling monster. I am already worried after seeing the f30 3ers release of how the f32 will feel. I am not interested in a car every 18 yr old girl will get for graduating high school. I guess I will be more inclined to the next M4 coupe.