F1 2021: Turkish GP - Istanbul (Oct 10)

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

*****

This is what's on my mind what wolfy says that there have been no upgrades, yet their pace has increased all of a sudden, of course yco will say it's all in our minds
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/96393...velopment.html

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

Merc also has a tweaked front wing coming in soon, so that combined with the new higher top speed (even with a larger rear wing than RB) and the fact that the new pirelli rear tire side walls favour the merc might mean trouble for RB.


But I guess we will see, I really don't care lol I just like the engineering side of things. I just wish they were more transparent about what is going on with the pu and where they have improved things.

What is suspected as big upgrades that are denied by Merc concerning the plenum chamber cooling with modified intercooler and of course the Merc spec rear tyres brought in by 'weraceasone' parelli. The drivers themselves I believe are being kept in the dark to a certain extent about the upgrades and it can only mean advantage Merc at this late stage, all planned in nicely for them I'm afraid.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

*****

And bang on time I've just read that Shovlin has been told by Wolf to send their usual warning to RB that they have a 'better package' to win the championship, oh the hilarity of it.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

What is suspected as big upgrades that are denied by Merc concerning the plenum chamber cooling with modified intercooler and of course the Merc spec rear tyres brought in by 'weraceasone' parelli. The drivers themselves I believe are being kept in the dark to a certain extent about the upgrades and it can only mean advantage Merc at this late stage, all planned in nicely for them I'm afraid.

I doubt it was "planned" for them, if it was then they wouldn't have made the 2022 regs so detrimental to low rake cars. They would have "planned" wind tunnel simulations to make sure that low rake cars were hurt less.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

I doubt it was "planned" for them, if it was then they wouldn't have made the 2022 regs so detrimental to low rake cars. They would have "planned" wind tunnel simulations to make sure that low rake cars were hurt less.

With the power Merc has this was on the back burner all the time for this year in case they needed it and now they have implemented it (the intercooler and plenum chamber cooling) not to mention the tailored rear tyres.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

With the power Merc has this was on the back burner all the time for this year in case they needed it and now they have implemented it (the intercooler and plenum chamber cooling) not to mention the tailored rear tyres.

Firstly they've been running with the plenum design all year long - fully legal as per the fia. Maybe they're getting more performance now because they have enough engines in the pool to run party mode at all times - which doesn't break the new rules about engine modes.


Tailored rear tires? Really? That's a pretty big conspiracy.

It's harder to imagine pirelli going through all the calculations to determine what side wall stifness would suit mercedes more than redbull. That's insanely difficult vs. the FIA create a scale model of a car and seeing if floor regulations would hurt low rake vs. high rake cars, then creating regulations that suit mercedes.


So in essence if you believe in all those conspiracies why didn't the FIA make floor regulations that favored mercedes in the first place?


If anything the new tire introduction was because of red bull playing with tire pressure tricks, and measuring tire pressure while the tires were extremely hot in order to get a higher than nominal tire pressure reading. This way during testing they would be on the minimum pressure limit and then during the race they would actually be at a lower pressure resulting in more grip. But this back fired when the tires ruptured binning one of the RB's - forcing pirelli into developing new tires. I believe AM also did something similar but red bull's crash was alot more high profile so it really brought more attention.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

Firstly they've been running with the plenum design all year long - fully legal as per the fia. Maybe they're getting more performance now because they have enough engines in the pool to run party mode at all times - which doesn't break the new rules about engine modes.


Tailored rear tires? Really? That's a pretty big conspiracy.

It's harder to imagine pirelli going through all the calculations to determine what side wall stifness would suit mercedes more than redbull. That's insanely difficult vs. the FIA create a scale model of a car and seeing if floor regulations would hurt low rake vs. high rake cars, then creating regulations that suit mercedes.


So in essence if you believe in all those conspiracies why didn't the FIA make floor regulations that favored mercedes in the first place?


If anything the new tire introduction was because of red bull playing with tire pressure tricks, and measuring tire pressure while the tires were extremely hot in order to get a higher than nominal tire pressure reading. This way during testing they would be on the minimum pressure limit and then during the race they would actually be at a lower pressure resulting in more grip. But this back fired when the tires ruptured binning one of the RB's - forcing pirelli into developing new tires. I believe AM also did something similar but red bull's crash was alot more high profile so it really brought more attention.

RB's and AM's rear tyre blowing was the perfect excuse to make the exact tyre that fitted Merc's specifications and RB denied 'playing' with tyre pressures at the time of blow out.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

RB's and AM's rear tyre blowing was the perfect excuse to make the exact tyre that fitted Merc's specifications and RB denied 'playing' with tyre pressures at the time of blow out.

Well if that's what you want to believe. Again, trying to create a tire to perfectly fit a car is alot harder than making the rules to favor a particular car straight from the get go.

So honestly this conspiracy is extremely extremely weak at best, and literally just non existent. Regardless of the outcomes conspiracies like this would still be here.


It could even be mercedes's Silverstone package was just impeccable, because they took the time to understand the car instead of just smashing parts non stop at it like redbull. Who knows.


Like I said I really don't care about who wins or looses, I like the engineering.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

Well if that's what you want to believe. Again, trying to create a tire to perfectly fit a car is alot harder than making the rules to favor a particular car straight from the get go.

So honestly this conspiracy is extremely extremely weak at best, and literally just non existent. Regardless of the outcomes conspiracies like this would still be here.


It could even be mercedes's Silverstone package was just impeccable, because they took the time to understand the car instead of just smashing parts non stop at it like redbull. Who knows.


Like I said I really don't care about who wins or looses, I like the engineering.

I don't buy just understanding a car how you can make it's pace quicker, for that you need parts Merc are talking out of their backside to gullible fans saying it's understanding the car better, you surely don't believe that.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Several years ago this post was 100% accurate. The change occurred with the advent of fixed modes from the Beginning of Quali to Race to end the alleged, "Party Mode", advantage Mercedes had.

The post is correct in that there is an engine manufacturers team assigned to each customer team to monitor the engine, it's utilization, and performance. These teams are in an advisory capacity and while the customer must REQUEST permission for certain things, having the engine manufacturer control what the customer team does with the engine, outside of safety or reliability concerns, is AGAINST the sporting code.

On slowing and speeding up certain cars...this is patently illegal. It has been illegal for quite a while to remotely control the performance of the Power Unit. Further, in the current sporting code, once an engine has been turned down during a race for whatever reason, it cannot be turned back up.

I fully understand why these and other myths are propagated about the PU based on this account which I'm providing from RaceFans about when Lotus ran the Mercedes Power Unit. It's fantastic:

https://www.racefans.net/2017/11/09/...ding-puncture/

Makes sense if the PU delegate turns down the power it’s a one way street. I believe PU Manufacturers should have ability to limit modes if conditions are not conducive, however this limitation creates a grey area for constructors to exploit.

For example, mclaren inlet temps measure 60C while Mercs measure 59C due to design differences. Merc PU delegates use this temp differential to keep Mclarens at Strat+ vs Strat++ for Mercs due to “reliability” or safety. Assuming the PU delegate discloses the rationale, how does the customer challenge the decision without the expertise. .

Suppose mclaren redesigns the inlet and matches the Mercs with temps, Merc PU delegates could very easily reference mileage concerns, vibration measurements, pneumatic levels, tire conditions, prior race temps etc. to keep mclaren at Strat+.

While customer teams have access to all power modes (consistent with the rules), the PU manufacturer establishes the criteria to qualify for power modes, such factors likely remain dynamic over the season

Customers are chasing the dragon here, and unlikely to achieve parity with limitless variable considerations.

It’s a no brainer for Merc PU delegates to turned up Williams mid season (post French GP) to collect PU run to failure data with virtually no podium risk for Merc (spa was the outlier). Additionally, this supports the Russell decision/bottas boot (look what he can in a Williams in jet mode), Williams gets opportunity for more points with no risk in the constructors battle against Alpha. It’s a win/win/win all around.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

I don't buy just understanding a car how you can make it's pace quicker, for that you need parts Merc are talking out of their backside to gullible fans saying it's understanding the car better, you surely don't believe that.

If you don't understand a car, you won't be able to effectively engineer and optimal solution. That's logical, and how engineering is done in the real world.... Literally tell me how else engineers devleop products or improve designs, not by just smashing new designs on it without knowing if the old parts needed to be replaced or not. This is especially true with capped wind tunnel runs and budget, you literally need to make the most of every single upgrade. Same goes with car setup for track days with reduced practice times.

Also don't forget how good Mercedes have been at implementing solutions: hot tires - vented wheel spacers and rims with ribs for additional cooling surface area, need to warm up tires das, split compressor turbo, suspension architecture to optimize aero, narrow nose concept etc etc etc. What has red bull done in the turbo hybrid area except copy Mercedes in almost all of the areas I listed? So don't be surprised when a team that doesn't bring many innovations gets caught out by a team that is used to pushing the limits all the time.



Also, youou believe in conspiracies with zero evidence or fact behind it so tell me who's gullible... Your hate for Mercedes is blinding, and a massive source of bias.

[Chappers 71]

Originally Posted by F87source

If you don't understand a car, you won't be able to effectively engineer and optimal solution. That's logical, and how engineering is done in the real world.... Literally tell me how else engineers devleop products or improve designs, not by just smashing new designs on it without knowing if the old parts needed to be replaced or not. This is especially true with capped wind tunnel runs and budget, you literally need to make the most of every single upgrade. Same goes with car setup for track days with reduced practice times.

Also don't forget how good Mercedes have been at implementing solutions: hot tires - vented wheel spacers and rims with ribs for additional cooling surface area, need to warm up tires das, split compressor turbo, suspension architecture to optimize aero, narrow nose concept etc etc etc. What has red bull done in the turbo hybrid area except copy Mercedes in almost all of the areas I listed? So don't be surprised when a team that doesn't bring many innovations gets caught out by a team that is used to pushing the limits all the time.



Also, you believe in conspiracies with zero evidence or fact behind it so tell me who's gullible... Your hate for Mercedes is blinding, and a massive source of bias.

As much as I agree with this & your other posts I suspect that you're wasting your time.
I rarely bother to post here anymore nowadays.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Chappers 71

As much as I agree with this & your other posts I suspect that you're wasting your time.
I rarely bother to post here anymore nowadays.

Thanks!

I suppose, but I'm mainly here to talk about the GP lol, some how it ended up here.


The problem with these debates is once you fall into the conspiracy loop, facts no longer matter. Then your point of view is supported literally by anything that favors your view point. You will literally gravitate towards anything that you think supports your idea regardless if how far fetched it is. What? It rained and Mercedes won? Well the fia must have planned the race day in advanced to favor mercedes. What a redbull got a puncture due to debris from a crash andercedes won? Well the fia must have planned this crash. Etc etc etc. You see what trying to say, once evidence and facts no longer matter then debate isn't really possible anymore, you'll be too far gone.


But another side is, why implement a budget cap and sliding scale wind tunnel tests? That would only hurt Mercedes who are at the top. These were designed to specifically topple the top team so they won't reign forever, why would the fia and f1 do this if they want Merc to win all the time? Yet no one who believes all the other crazy ideas addresses these things, and this is rooted in fact/reality.


Either way like I said I really don't care lol, I'm just here to watch racing and see the cool engineering. I'm really excited to see the new ground effects cars, that has me really excited. Also as an engineering fan, the removal of the mgu h for Porsche/VW/Audi's interest to enter this sport is hugely disappointing to me. I love the engineering behind that awesome energy recovery system.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

If you don't understand a car, you won't be able to effectively engineer and optimal solution. That's logical, and how engineering is done in the real world.... Literally tell me how else engineers devleop products or improve designs, not by just smashing new designs on it without knowing if the old parts needed to be replaced or not. This is especially true with capped wind tunnel runs and budget, you literally need to make the most of every single upgrade. Same goes with car setup for track days with reduced practice times.

Also don't forget how good Mercedes have been at implementing solutions: hot tires - vented wheel spacers and rims with ribs for additional cooling surface area, need to warm up tires das, split compressor turbo, suspension architecture to optimize aero, narrow nose concept etc etc etc. What has red bull done in the turbo hybrid area except copy Mercedes in almost all of the areas I listed? So don't be surprised when a team that doesn't bring many innovations gets caught out by a team that is used to pushing the limits all the time.
Y


Also, youou believe in conspiracies with zero evidence or fact behind it so tell me who's gullible... Your hate for Mercedes is blinding, and a massive source of bias.

You have said you don't support any team or driver and interested in only the engineering but know little of internal F1 happenings. Even Alonso has commented publicly that some drivers are shadowed by the stewards more than others. Let me put it this way to you, do you think a footie team supporter or ice hockey fan is going to congratulate the other team if they beat his?

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by F87source

If you don't understand a car, you won't be able to effectively engineer and optimal solution. That's logical, and how engineering is done in the real world.... Literally tell me how else engineers devleop products or improve designs, not by just smashing new designs on it without knowing if the old parts needed to be replaced or not. This is especially true with capped wind tunnel runs and budget, you literally need to make the most of every single upgrade. Same goes with car setup for track days with reduced practice times.

Also don't forget how good Mercedes have been at implementing solutions: hot tires - vented wheel spacers and rims with ribs for additional cooling surface area, need to warm up tires das, split compressor turbo, suspension architecture to optimize aero, narrow nose concept etc etc etc. What has red bull done in the turbo hybrid area except copy Mercedes in almost all of the areas I listed? So don't be surprised when a team that doesn't bring many innovations gets caught out by a team that is used to pushing the limits all the time.



Also, youou believe in conspiracies with zero evidence or fact behind it so tell me who's gullible... Your hate for Mercedes is blinding, and a massive source of bias.

You sir, win The Internet today. Congratulations!!

This is one of the most insightful and descriptive post regarding Mercedes and the stark differences between their execution in F1 vs. RBR. Further, your delineation of the actual processes in developmental engineering is brilliant.

Thanks for adding value, which is typically sorely missing, to this forum.

Cheers-MK

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

I don't buy just understanding a car how you can make it's pace quicker, for that you need parts Merc are talking out of their backside to gullible fans saying it's understanding the car better, you surely don't believe that.

I would also like to add a second point to my prior thoughts.


You even see on real life when people design software or hardware like a turbo for instance, there is are alpha and beta testing periods. This is because the engineers need time to test their new design in real life to fully understand it, and this allows them to make further changes before releasing it to the public as the final "perfect" version. Now note this is with things that have near 100% correlation in CAD (for hardware) and an IDE (for software) to real life testing (you generally can spot potential trouble areas during testing even before you release the product), and stuff can still go wrong.

Now let's examine an f1 team, they also have to design products but the difference is zero alpha and beta testing in real life conditions. Plus CFD is alot more inaccurate in simulating real life conditions compared to something like CAD where if a gear is designed to be this way it's going to come out just like that for instance - and simulated stress tests are very accurate too compared to CFD. Or an IDE can spot software bugs that you'd get in real life use for instance. So you can see the correlation of the wind tunel and CFD to real life isn't perfect, and that combined with going out without much real life testing makes understanding the car absolutely essentially if you want to optimize it correctly. This will also result in developments making more meaningful impacts, because you know where the car is weak you know exactly what to improve to make the biggest difference so you're focusing your extremely limited amount of resources for the 2021 season in exactly the right spots. Vs. the shot gun approach where you don't know the hell is going on but you're going to try and upgrade everything in hopes you improve rather than make it worse (remember CFD and real life correlation isn't perfect so you always risk making stuff worse if you don't have a clear idea of what you're doing).



So to answer your question Mercedes isn't talking out of their backside, they're speaking in engineering reality. And only someone that understands product development cycles could relate and realize it's the truth. If I were gullible I'd go for some conspiracy's instead, they're far easier to understand.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by F87source

Well if that's what you want to believe. Again, trying to create a tire to perfectly fit a car is alot harder than making the rules to favor a particular car straight from the get go.

So honestly this conspiracy is extremely extremely weak at best, and literally just non existent. Regardless of the outcomes conspiracies like this would still be here.


It could even be mercedes's Silverstone package was just impeccable, because they took the time to understand the car instead of just smashing parts non stop at it like redbull. Who knows.


Like I said I really don't care about who wins or looses, I like the engineering.

All their current blathering on and on is setting up excuses if Max doesn’t win the WDC (and conversely Lewis isn’t better than Max/it’s all MB jet mode nonsense). Because it certainly couldn’t be his or RBRs fault if he does right? It’s pretty crazy considering that Max is up right now and there is still a lot of season to go. But, that’s what desperation and insane fanboism will lead to.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

You have said you don't support any team or driver and interested in only the engineering but know little of internal F1 happenings. Even Alonso has commented publicly that some drivers are shadowed by the stewards more than others. Let me put it this way to you, do you think a footie team supporter or ice hockey fan is going to congratulate the other team if they beat his?

No, I generally don't really care about a particular team or driver. In terms of team I love observing the developments hence why Mercedes really intrigues me with their amazing engineering philosophy and developments. Even Ferrari cheating with their oil burning was intriguing to me. For drivers, that's not fully the truth, while I don't support one driver like alot of f1 fans I support a whole bunch of drivers equally for various reasons: Seb, George, Mick, stroll, albon when he's back, Landon, leclerc etc.

Second I watch alot of the f1 summary videos, driver interviews, and follow closely with articles about f1 gossip. Alonso of course is going to say he's treated harshly because he's an ultra competitive driver racing and he will obviously react to critique harshly - he's trying to win. Now, every story has 2 sides, clearly the fia is trying to be unbiased as much as possible. Alonso was complaining that when he cut track limits he was punished vs. others who did it before him not getting punished. My point of view is the fia at first saw that only some drivers cut the limit in free practice, they didn't think it was a big deal until it happened more and more and more. Over time they realized it was becoming an issue and decided to enforce it, this could have happened right as Alonso decided to start cutting the limit. Thus he was coincidentally punished on the first attempt, to him this was the fia targeting him. To me it was a coincidence because track limit violation was happening so much that eventually it was time to enforce it and Alonso got caught out. He even said he never cut track limits until late into the season then he got punished instantly, well that just means he waited too long to do it and finally was caught when it was enforced. It's literally the same thing as speeding a bit in a monitored zone for instance, the first few people might be let off because the cop isn't feeling like it's a huge issue. Then as more and more people do it eventually the cop is gonna catch someone, and that person who he catches will feel targeted - same thing.


No because people are too emotional, of course they're not going to support the other team. Me I don't care, that's what makes it easier to be a spectator and see things clearly. Because I literally don't really care, I'm not emotionally tied to who wins or looses.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Let me put it this way to you, do you think a footie team supporter or ice hockey fan is going to congratulate the other team if they beat his?

Oh yeah and in regard to this part, no I do not expect one hard core team supporter to cheer or congratulate for the other team if their team loses. I totally understand what that feels like. However I do expect the loosing team to accept reality and admit their team lost because the other team was better, and not blame it on things like "the refs favored the other team" or something like this. Another crazy accusation was the NHL (national hockey league) is favoring American teams because the USA owns them, and that's why all the good draft picks are rigged to go the US based teams. Really? Then why does Edmonton have a bunch of 1st round 1st overall draft picks in a row, and why they now have arguably the best player of this generation (literally a one in a generation player and carries the crap out of the oilers) in Conor Mcdavid? In reality the reason why the US based teams have the advantage in draft picks is that they're more statistically likely to recieve these picks, as there are alot more American teams than Canadian teams.

BTW these NHL conspiracies are exactly the same as the F1 conspiracies - I wonder why? Because when you no longer exist in the realm of facts you will tend to gravitate towards the easiest means to satisfy your point of view or beliefs, and that tends to be some superior force (FIA,F1, or the NHL) is making it so your team loses. It's so annoying when you talk sports and someone always blames it on the refs and it literally common in all sports. I do understand why this is happening - and it is to do with how passionate fans are, but at some point it is too far and imo thats when you can't accept the other team won.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by F87source

If you don't understand a car, you won't be able to effectively engineer and optimal solution. That's logical, and how engineering is done in the real world.... Literally tell me how else engineers devleop products or improve designs, not by just smashing new designs on it without knowing if the old parts needed to be replaced or not. This is especially true with capped wind tunnel runs and budget, you literally need to make the most of every single upgrade. Same goes with car setup for track days with reduced practice times.

Also don't forget how good Mercedes have been at implementing solutions: hot tires - vented wheel spacers and rims with ribs for additional cooling surface area, need to warm up tires das, split compressor turbo, suspension architecture to optimize aero, narrow nose concept etc etc etc. What has red bull done in the turbo hybrid area except copy Mercedes in almost all of the areas I listed? So don't be surprised when a team that doesn't bring many innovations gets caught out by a team that is used to pushing the limits all the time.

Someone at Ferrari needs to read and understand your first paragraph

For the second at least Red Bull is smart enough to copy! Ferrari still think they are smarter than everyone else

Or they cheat and make no attempt to cover their tracks

[minn19]

Originally Posted by F87source

Oh yeah and in regard to this part, no I do not expect one hard core team supporter to cheer or congratulate for the other team if their team loses. I totally understand what that feels like. However I do expect the loosing team to accept reality and admit their team lost because the other team was better, and not blame it on things like "the refs favored the other team" or something like this. Another crazy accusation was the NHL (national hockey league) is favoring American teams because the USA owns them, and that's why all the good draft picks are rigged to go the US based teams. Really? Then why does Edmonton have a bunch of 1st round 1st overall draft picks in a row, and why they now have arguably the best player of this generation (literally a one in a generation player and carries the crap out of the oilers) in Conor Mcdavid? In reality the reason why the US based teams have the advantage in draft picks is that they're more statistically likely to recieve these picks, as there are alot more American teams than Canadian teams.

BTW these NHL conspiracies are exactly the same as the F1 conspiracies - I wonder why? Because when you no longer exist in the realm of facts you will tend to gravitate towards the easiest means to satisfy your point of view or beliefs, and that tends to be some superior force (FIA,F1, or the NHL) is making it so your team loses. It's so annoying when you talk sports and someone always blames it on the refs and it literally common in all sports. I do understand why this is happening - and it is to do with how passionate fans are, but at some point it is too far and imo thats when you can't accept the other team won.

Hasn’t helped my Wild.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Someone at Ferrari needs to read and understand your first paragraph

For the second at least Red Bull is smart enough to copy! Ferrari still think they are smarter than everyone else

Or they cheat and make no attempt to cover their tracks

I just think Ferrari lacks the leader ship to steer them in the correct direction. Apparently they're having driver infighting again so that's great...


Like redbull isn't too far gone (they're actually doing very well), they have newy (doesn't seem to be making a difference in the turbo hybrid era even chassis wise - literally Mercedes have been doing all the adventurous things with suspension geometry) but I think their work environment is too toxic to spur brilliant advances. The problem with redbull imo is the toxicity (cough cough dingnut Marko), even towards the drivers the mind games they plan is crazy for contract negotiations and they favor only one driver so the cars always lean towards max. Like if you work for a toxic company you kind of hate working there so you don't want to give it your all, but if you work in a great work environment then you love going to work and love being with the people around you and you really just want to give it your all (ive personally experienced both work environments and I can say that I am much more productive when I work in a place that I love being in). That's why mercedes is the team to beat in this aspect, they have an open and welcome working environment, everyone gets a parking spot regardless if you're lead engineer or a janitor, your opinions matter and if something is off you're encouraged to speak out, and everyone working for them even get a bonus if the team wins. Literally how can you not want to work for Mercedes and try your absolute best, because you have incentive to do so and the environment to thrive.


I have to also mention these engineers working for these teams are all insanely smart and the top 1% in the entire world, they're not stupid. But the problem is even if you are super smart and you don't have someone to lead you in the right direction nothing good would come out of it.