Still want an EV?

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Just as long as we're on the same page.

Our future is looking awesome with everyone driving plaid like power!

If all you care about in a car is power, then sure. But I'm not going to be surprised when the average EV does 0-60 in 6sec so they can squeeze more range out of lower priced models and charge more to unlock extra power through software upgrades (see Mercedes EQS). Yeah, the future looks great…

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Cos270

If all you care about in a car is power, then sure. But I'm not going to be surprised when the average EV does 0-60 in 6sec so they can squeeze more range out of lower priced models and charge more to unlock extra power through software upgrades (see Mercedes EQS). Yeah, the future looks great…

The fact it’s available and you can purchase an OTA update to make it faster just shows how awesome that is.

There will always be tiers in terms of available power. Just like now with ICE.

But when someone can afford a 50-60k ev in the future and it runs low 11s or even 10s, will show how far they have come to achieve that.


You’re judging todays results as a glimpse of the future lol. It doesn’t work like that. These things will get much better very fast.

[M5Rick]

Just saw another nearly new Tesla on a breakdown low loader truck and the sightings are more frequent now.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

The fact it’s available and you can purchase an OTA update to make it faster just shows how awesome that is.

There will always be tiers in terms of available power. Just like now with ICE.

But when someone can afford a 50-60k ev in the future and it runs low 11s or even 10s, will show how far they have come to achieve that.


You’re judging todays results as a glimpse of the future lol. It doesn’t work like that. These things will get much better very fast.

My point about the EQS was regarding the SUBSCRIPTION that's required to access higher performance. You don't own it - that's the rub. Unfortunately, unless governments get involved to regulate OEMs, this is our future. Steady, guaranteed revenue is more important to them, especially since EVs maintenance costs are so much lower than ICE. I'm not willing to trade ownership for performance.

[Murf the Surf]

I think the issues of EV adoption has to be folded in with other energy uses. With the push to get off of fossil fuels and move to EV and home heating alternatives the strain put on the grid is going to have to be addressed. The infrastructure required to get the hydro to homes for heating/AC and EV chargers, plus EV chargers along the road is going cost trillions, then there is the capacity to provide that much hydro without using fossil fuels. I don't think these problems can be solved in the time frame that has been laid out given government red tape, costs and the actual time to build nuclear plants etc. The attached article on the upcoming energy emergency is worth the read. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/quart...t_source=email

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Cos270

My point about the EQS was regarding the SUBSCRIPTION that's required to access higher performance. You don't own it - that's the rub. Unfortunately, unless governments get involved to regulate OEMs, this is our future. Steady, guaranteed revenue is more important to them, especially since EVs maintenance costs are so much lower than ICE. I'm not willing to trade ownership for performance.

So that’s Mercedes. Car makers can implement that however they want.

When I purchased acceleration boost, it was 2000 to knock off 1/2 second 0-60. I think they give you 48 hours to “return” the update if you’re unhappy with it. I knew I wanted it so I was quick to buy it. The update didn’t take long at all. And I was beating cars left and right after it during my commute.

This type of technology will only get better as time moves toward. Your post is exactly what I was saying. You’re judging todays results and thinking that’s how it’s going to be moving forward.

It won’t. It gets better. At least for EV fans.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

So that’s Mercedes. Car makers can implement that however they want.

When I purchased acceleration boost, it was 2000 to knock off 1/2 second 0-60. I think they give you 48 hours to “return” the update if you’re unhappy with it. I knew I wanted it so I was quick to buy it. The update didn’t take long at all. And I was beating cars left and right after it during my commute.

This type of technology will only get better as time moves toward. Your post is exactly what I was saying. You’re judging todays results and thinking that’s how it’s going to be moving forward.

It won’t. It gets better. At least for EV fans.

I think we'll have to wait to see if it get's better. I agree, its too early to see if all car makers are going to go the route of Mercedes and BMW with subscription-based services for features that could previously be owned, but once someone sets a precedent and shows it's profitable (and customers are willing to roll over and accept it), it's hard to go back.

Saying that just because something is "bad" now means it will get better is not always how reality works.

And to some (most) people, owning something is more important than beating people on your morning commute.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The EV is still in its prove-it-to-me phase, which is why Tesla and the other makers make models that can do 60 MPH in 3 seconds. But it's just not software key that unlocks the additional power. The high-power hardware has to be in the car in the first place. The motor(s) have to be sized for the power output, the cabling, the high-power electronics, a larger battery to handle the heat load. All of that has to be sized to make the power flow safely to achieve 60 MPH in 3 seconds. And it adds weight. It hardly different than high-powered ICE, the faster the goes, the more power it has, and the heavier it is. However, you can put a big engine in a small car; with EV, its not as easy to package the high-power EV hardware in a small chassis.

This is one of my gripes with EV. There is no 7-second EV hatchback econo car that gets 200 MPGe. It's all groin-enlarging Plaids that get the attention of most pretend car guys. If the EV is to save the planet, which is why they are here, then where are the slow(er), 50kWh super-efficient ones that cost $30K so everyone can afford EV?

I get all that, and certainly in the near future there will be vehicles that are only built to perform at a certain performance level (think electric camry's and accords). But once OEMs have better tech and are more efficient at scaling EV production, it will be more cost effective and profitable to "overbuild" a vehicle with options hidden behind a paywall than it is to diversify your lineup and let people order options ala carte that drive unique hardware and components for each vehicle. Customization and non-standardized builds are the main drivers in manufacturing costs.

Also, the EVs are not here to save the planet. They are here because they are a more profitable business model and enough people seem to like them. The green aspect is just a convenient visage that makes government officials and CEOs seem more virtuous than they are.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The EV is still in its prove-it-to-me phase, which is why Tesla and the other makers make models that can do 60 MPH in 3 seconds. But it's just not software key that unlocks the additional power. The high-power hardware has to be in the car in the first place. The motor(s) have to be sized for the power output, the cabling, the high-power electronics, a larger battery to handle the heat load. All of that has to be sized to make the power flow safely to achieve 60 MPH in 3 seconds. And it adds weight. It hardly different than high-powered ICE, the faster the goes, the more power it has, and the heavier it is. However, you can put a big engine in a small car; with EV, its not as easy to package the high-power EV hardware in a small chassis.

This is one of my gripes with EV. There is no 7-second EV hatchback econo car that gets 200 MPGe. It's all groin-enlarging Plaids that get the attention of most pretend car guys. If the EV is to save the planet, which is why they are here, then where are the slow(er), 50kWh super-efficient ones that cost $30K so everyone can afford EV?

It's not about saving shit. It's about money like every being else my friend. Our armed forces produce a shit tone of Carbon. Do you see us jumping through hoops to change all that? Nope. If your really a save the planet tree hugger, buy a Tesla, don't fly in commercial jets and stop eating meat. That would be a start

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Cos270

I think we'll have to wait to see if it get's better. I agree, its too early to see if all car makers are going to go the route of Mercedes and BMW with subscription-based services for features that could previously be owned, but once someone sets a precedent and shows it's profitable (and customers are willing to roll over and accept it), it's hard to go back.

Saying that just because something is "bad" now means it will get better is not always how reality works.

And to some (most) people, owning something is more important than beating people on your morning commute.

When in automotive history have they went backwards when they were innovating their new technology?

Did people say fuel injection was wrong when we were in a carb era?

This is no different. EV is the future whether you agree or not. I do agree it’s a bit fast how they’re trying to push the transition. But this is our future no matter what.

Daily commute is just one facet of driving. Do you own multiple cars? If so, having a fun teched out commuter means a lot to many people who are car enthusiasts and have multiple cars.

I love daily driving my Tesla. So much that I’ll never go back to an ICE daily.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

When in automotive history have they went backwards when they were innovating their new technology?

Did people say fuel injection was wrong when we were in a carb era?

This is no different. EV is the future whether you agree or not. I do agree it’s a bit fast how they’re trying to push the transition. But this is our future no matter what.

Daily commute is just one facet of driving. Do you own multiple cars? If so, having a fun teched out commuter means a lot to many people who are car enthusiasts and have multiple cars.

I love daily driving my Tesla. So much that I’ll never go back to an ICE daily.

Well, since you're so enthusiastic about EVs, technically GM went backwards when they shelved the EV1 and decided to stop developing EVs in favor of their all ICE lineup. I'd also argue that the overall disposability and design-to-fail mentality that many cars are made with today is a step backwards. Has it given us cheaper vehicles? Sure, but they're hardly made to last. And no, I am not arguing that engines used to be better in the carbureted days back when you had to check and add oil at every other gas stop because machining tolerances and material science was not what it is today. I'm talking about the forgoing of the 90s Mercedes mentality of "let's engineer the finest car we can" to "how can we make the most profit while yielding the minimum longevity that the customer can stomach?. You could argue Toyota and Honda aren't doing this, to some extent, but even they are not immune.

But I wasn't talking about going backwards in technology in terms of performance, I was talking about going backwards from owning ALL of your car (for as long as it is yours) to leasing/renting everything right down to certain features. That is a step backwards, in my mind.

I do not own multiple cars, and with the way the economy is going, selling EVs on the fact that they make great second cars is not going to expedite their adoption at the rate that is needed. GM just announced that they will not see returns on any of their EV lineup until 2025, other companies are on a similar time line I'm sure. Anyways, getting into the weeds a bit. I think we'll have to agree to disagree until all this shakes out. I'm not opposed to EVs as an option - if they fit your lifestyle by all means have at it. But it's not the best for everyone, nor do I think it will be in our lifetimes.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by Cos270

I get all that, and certainly in the near future there will be vehicles that are only built to perform at a certain performance level (think electric camry's and accords). But once OEMs have better tech and are more efficient at scaling EV production, it will be more cost effective and profitable to "overbuild" a vehicle with options hidden behind a paywall than it is to diversify your lineup and let people order options ala carte that drive unique hardware and components for each vehicle. Customization and non-standardized builds are the main drivers in manufacturing costs.

We were promised sub $30K pedestrian performance level Tesla's long ago, and tax credits were pushed to make it possible.

Current price of cheapest most bare bones Tesla is $48,440,

Also, the EVs are not here to save the planet. They are here because they are a more profitable business model and enough people seem to like them. The green aspect is just a convenient visage that makes government officials and CEOs seem more virtuous than they are.

See point above. That price is over 25% more now than it was 5 years ago. Not only are they not getting cheaper, they don't even really want to sell them. They certainly know how to make one cheaper, they would just rather not. https://electrek.co/2021/10/12/the-2...e-know-so-far/

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Cos270

Well, since you're so enthusiastic about EVs, technically GM went backwards when they shelved the EV1 and decided to stop developing EVs in favor of their all ICE lineup. I'd also argue that the overall disposability and design-to-fail mentality that many cars are made with today is a step backwards. Has it given us cheaper vehicles? Sure, but they're hardly made to last. And no, I am not arguing that engines used to be better in the carbureted days back when you had to check and add oil at every other gas stop because machining tolerances and material science was not what it is today. I'm talking about the forgoing of the 90s Mercedes mentality of "let's engineer the finest car we can" to "how can we make the most profit while yielding the minimum longevity that the customer can stomach?. You could argue Toyota and Honda aren't doing this, to some extent, but even they are not immune.

But I wasn't talking about going backwards in technology in terms of performance, I was talking about going backwards from owning ALL of your car (for as long as it is yours) to leasing/renting everything right down to certain features. That is a step backwards, in my mind.

I do not own multiple cars, and with the way the economy is going, selling EVs on the fact that they make great second cars is not going to expedite their adoption at the rate that is needed. GM just announced that they will not see returns on any of their EV lineup until 2025, other companies are on a similar time line I'm sure. Anyways, getting into the weeds a bit. I think we'll have to agree to disagree until all this shakes out. I'm not opposed to EVs as an option - if they fit your lifestyle by all means have at it. But it's not the best for everyone, nor do I think it will be in our lifetimes.

But gm promises an all ev lineup in 2035? How is that going backwards?

Are you talking about when they first introduced the volt? Or bolt or whatever that old model was called? Yeah their technology wasn’t up to par back then it only made sense to back out of something they know nothing about.

When Tesla came on board everyone laughed at them. Even Ford. And now look at them, they’re playing catch up to Tesla.

You’re right it doesn’t fit everyone’s lifestyle, I wasn’t saying it did.

But as time moves foward we adapt. That’s how our species work. We adapt.

[CarsAndGuitars]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

But gm promises an all ev lineup in 2035? How is that going backwards?

Are you talking about when they first introduced the volt? Or bolt or whatever that old model was called? Yeah their technology wasn’t up to par back then it only made sense to back out of something they know nothing about.

When Tesla came on board everyone laughed at them. Even Ford. And now look at them, they’re playing catch up to Tesla.

You’re right it doesn’t fit everyone’s lifestyle, I wasn’t saying it did.

But as time moves foward we adapt. That’s how our species work. We adapt.

Machines? Not so "adaptable" if not supported by proper infrastructure

[H2O_Doc]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

It's not about saving shit. It's about money like every being else my friend. Our armed forces produce a shit tone of Carbon. Do you see us jumping through hoops to change all that? Nope. If your really a save the planet tree hugger, buy a Tesla, don't fly in commercial jets and stop eating meat. That would be a start

There is a whole bunch of stuff being done to reduce the DoD's carbon footprint, while maintaining readiness.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by CarsAndGuitars

Machines? Not so "adaptable" if not supported by proper infrastructure

If you think we don’t have the technology to improve on this i don’t know what to tell you.

10 years ago where were we? When the gas ban happened car makers pumped out ev’s like skittles. They have the know how now.

This only gets better not worse.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by H2O_Doc

There is a whole bunch of stuff being done to reduce the DoD's carbon footprint, while maintaining readiness.

Interesting, I'd be curious to know the percentage of their emission's they estimate they can reduce. Maybe it could be read across to other heavy industries.

[CarsAndGuitars]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

If you think we don’t have the technology to improve on this i don’t know what to tell you.

10 years ago where were we? When the gas ban happened car makers pumped out ev’s like skittles. They have the know how now.

This only gets better not worse.

You apparently don't understand the challenge of scaling

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by CarsAndGuitars

You apparently don't understand the challenge of scaling

And tell that to all the car makers making ev’s for our future.

This is happening no matter what. Whether right or wrong, anything happening now will get better and will eventually happen.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by H2O_Doc

There is a whole bunch of stuff being done to reduce the DoD's carbon footprint, while maintaining readiness.

Yeah. I'm sure in 10 years there will be major progress right? Lol

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Sorry Sir, General Sir, "Our field-deployable sustainable-energy grid did not get all our tanks, drones, and missiles charged up yesterday. There was no wind last night and it rained all day yesterday. Can you please ask your counterpart in China to postpone the battle until we are 100% charged? Thank you Sir, General Sir."

Lol.

Lol. It just cracks me up how so many in the Political world are all about closing Refineries and green this and that. The do everything in their power to make that happens , especially the White House. Then, gas goes up because we are dependent on others and they feel the heat and realize they will be voted out. So what do they do, the funnel money to Refineries to open back up and produce as much as possible. It's comical. How ass backwards can you be. So it's BS they only care about saving the planet blah blah. Oh shit, we are getting killed in the polls. Let's change our entire platform so it helps us keep the power. 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

[M3WC]

GM Pushes Back North America Production Plan Of 400,000 EVs To 2024

https://insideevs.com/news/618889/gm...0-evs-to-2024/



Mary stated early this year GM would overtake Tesla by 2025 as the top US-based seller of electric vehicles. Not happening.