Miscellaneous Tesla/EV debate

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

BMW couldn’t give them away. If I remember correctly, couple years ago they even had $99 lease specials.

Dang 99 a month is a no brainer, that's cheaper than a cell phone bill.

[Takumi587]

I think it’s great AndreyATC is here and speaking his opinion on Tesla. We are in the M3/4 vs whatever section.

I am a BMW enthusiast but like to hear the other side in these threads. Whether it be Tesla, Porsche or Mercedes etc. Again, for daily driving I still feel a Tesla makes sense for me here in LA. I like autopilot and not dealing with the gas stations here. Range of 300 miles is still as much gas as I get from my M3.

I want to add I am not getting rid of my M3s for the Tesla. Just going to keep the Ms for weekends and track.

[HPIA4v2]

Zero time charging EV batt argument is like this video:

Hey electron travels faster with Kool-aid though

[Poiseuille]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Confused with your question...
How many miles M3 can do on the full tank at the track vs. city driving?
Tesla can probably do 400, but on track is still anknown
As for charging, i guess you can have a 40-min lunch while your car gets 80% of charge
In the summer, charging time will be cut down to a half. So you can just have a coffee while charging.
Tolstoy may be a good idea still, but you won't get far with your book

Sorry you're confused by my post. I was just sort of pointing out that the 310 mile range which is often mentioned almost in the same breath as those astonishing performance results, gives the impression that the Tesla can do both at the same time, when it cannot.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

If you wanna talk environment, you'll find this thread home for you
http://f15.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1402190
Also, Are you a friend of Fundguy1 by any chance?
Very much alike against cleaner future.

Now,
If i charge my car with dirtiest possible fuel source, i'd still be cleaner, than ICE. You think gas just magically appears at the gas stations?


Fortunately, 1/4 of my roof has solar which produces 110% of my needs.
As more clean energy comes to the environment, the cleaner the grid becomes.
More and more population is installing solar to offset their electric bill, or just simply to be carbon-free household.
Tesla superchargers already utilize solar carports and soon most (if not all) charging station will be carbon free

You're entitled to have your opinion on the TM3 vs M3, so constructive conversation is very appreciated, especially if we stay on topic

Thank you

I looked into this a little further, and from what I gather the carbon footprint of an EV compared with a modern ICE run car isn't always substantially cleaner, or cleaner at all. It's complicated though because a lot is dependent on several variables, the most influential probably being the type of power plant you're plugged into. As we know, many states and localities depend upon coal power plants for energy. In this case, an EV won't ultimately be cleaner than any ICE car. When everything, within reason, is factored into the calculations (energy cost to refine and transport gasoline, producing EV vs IBE cars, producing the EV battery etc) EV are still likely cleaner than a powerful sports car or pick up truck, but is not cleaner than a typical, relatively efficient, modern car (around 30mpg). We're not talking the most fuel efficient IBE cars here either. Even a 340i in ecopro mode can achieve close to 30mpg.

On the other hand, if your local power-plant uses natural gas, that number increases to the point where it gives hybrids a run for the money. Obviously if you normally have the opportunity to plug into a station that's tied into renewable energy, or have solar panels on your home, an EV will be nearly impossible for any IBE or hybrid to match.

As I suspected, there is the issue of efficiency during the charging process as well (of course since no system can be 100% efficient). The process was relatively efficient in most quality EVs - though there appears to be variability among cars (even within the same make and model) with some being much less efficient for whatever reason. Variables such as temperature, electrical current, age or state of the battery, length of time the car is left plugged in after achieving 100% charge, among other things can also affect the efficiency with which the battery charges. Apparently if the car is left plugged in after the battery achieves 100% charge, the system will discharge the excess energy. This obviously can waste a fair bit of energy.

Basically, EVs can range from being reasonably clean to extraordinary dependent on many variables (especially the local power plant) but it's not as simple as assuming that an EV will be cleaner for every driver in any circumstance. Some states still rely heavily on coal and petroleum based power plants to power their grids, so results will vary... Some drivers might improve their carbon footprint more by driving a small fuel efficient IBE car or traditional, non-plug in hybrid.

To be fair, and transparent, the above figures are based on some (what I assume) were somewhat rough calculations. I didn't pull them from a peer reviewed, scientific journal. The general message makes sense though.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

How did you get a 240 lease payment on the i3, how much down?

Nothing down, other than 7 MSDs. I don't remember if I paid fees upfront, or rolled them into monthly payment.
I was just playing the incentives game, and still left a bit on the table for my SA. Back in 1Q'16 the following held true (discounts and rebates are even better now):
$47,275 MSRP - $7.5K Fed credit - $1K xDrive credit - $1.5K fleet credit - $250 = $37,025 purchase /cap cost.
64% residual, 1.56% interest (MSD = 0.00065) --> $241.14 monthly.

You can do even better these days:
https://insideevs.com/lease-51695-bmw-i3-112-per-month/

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

I hope they get very serious about EVs.
I fear they might be battery constrained to be able to "pump" these out at the same rate as Tesla does

BMW AG is both battery (Samsung) and carbon-fiber (Quant family is their only supplier) constrained, so the current i3/i8 architecture is the end of the line. From 2021 onward, it will be traditional bodies with EV drive train.

Originally Posted by Fuller

Basically, EVs can range from being reasonably clean to extraordinary dependent on many variables (especially the local power plant) but it's not as simple as assuming that an EV will be cleaner for every driver in any circumstance.

All true - but it really does not matter.
I bought my EV because its dirt cheap and cool.
If it saves environment a lot, or a little, along the way - I'm fine either way.

a

[HPIA4v2]

Originally Posted by Fuller

I looked into this a little further, and from what I gather the carbon footprint of an EV compared with a modern ICE run car isn't always substantially cleaner, or cleaner at all. It's complicated though because a lot is dependent on several variables, the most influential probably being the type of power plant you're plugged into. As we know, many states and localities depend upon coal power plants for energy. In this case, an EV won't ultimately be cleaner than any ICE car. When everything, within reason, is factored into the calculations (energy cost to refine and transport gasoline, producing EV vs IBE cars, producing the EV battery etc) EV are still likely cleaner than a powerful sports car or pick up truck, but is not cleaner than a typical, relatively efficient, modern car (around 30mpg). We're not talking the most fuel efficient IBE cars here either. Even a 340i in ecopro mode can achieve close to 30mpg.

On the other hand, if your local power-plant uses natural gas, that number increases to the point where it gives hybrids a run for the money. Obviously if you normally have the opportunity to plug into a station that's tied into renewable energy, or have solar panels on your home, an EV will be nearly impossible for any IBE or hybrid to match.

As I suspected, there is the issue of efficiency during the charging process as well (of course since no system can be 100% efficient). The process was relatively efficient in most quality EVs - though there appears to be variability among cars (even within the same make and model) with some being much less efficient for whatever reason. Variables such as temperature, electrical current, age or state of the battery, length of time the car is left plugged in after achieving 100% charge, among other things can also affect the efficiency with which the battery charges. Apparently if the car is left plugged in after the battery achieves 100% charge, the system will discharge the excess energy. This obviously can waste a fair bit of energy.

Basically, EVs can range from being reasonably clean to extraordinary dependent on many variables (especially the local power plant) but it's not as simple as assuming that an EV will be cleaner for every driver in any circumstance. Some states still rely heavily on coal and petroleum based power plants to power their grids, so results will vary... Some drivers might improve their carbon footprint more by driving a small fuel efficient IBE car or traditional, non-plug in hybrid.

To be fair, and transparent, the above figures are based on some (what I assume) were somewhat rough calculations. I didn't pull them from a peer reviewed, scientific journal. The general message makes sense though.

And recycling LiIon batteries packages to be less hazardous materials are zero emission too

Similar, argument on using more Ethanol from corn, after harvest the corn stalks are ground up and left to decay on the fields. Oh decaying organic materials emitting Methane, which is 4 worst as green house gas as CO2.

Next, how about bio-diesel from palm seeds, yeah the farmers in Amazon and Borneo clear the fields by burning it when they rush to plant more palm trees as demand rises. That rain forest fires is zero emission too

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by HPIA4v2

Zero time charging EV batt argument is like this video:

Hey electron travels faster with Kool-aid though

Ran out of arguments much?
I mean, bringing up Kool-aid as often is kind of amusing
May wanna try something less original...

And yes, electrons travel faster, especially when i'm asleep

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by HPIA4v2

And recycling LiIon batteries packages to be less hazardous materials are zero emission too

Similar, argument on using more Ethanol from corn, after harvest the corn stalks are ground up and left to decay on the fields. Oh decaying organic materials emitting Methane, which is 4 worst as green house gas as CO2.

Next, how about bio-diesel from palm seeds, yeah the farmers in Amazon and Borneo clear the fields by burning it when they rush to plant more palm trees as demand rises. That rain forest fires is zero emission too

Found good read for you
https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-cl...ycling-program

And just because you're ignorant enough not to read a few posts above, here you go
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...7&postcount=35


https://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-neal...-emissions-953

2018 data below:
https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmu...to-get-cleaner

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Nothing down, other than 7 MSDs. I don't remember if I paid fees upfront, or rolled them into monthly payment.
I was just playing the incentives game, and still left a bit on the table for my SA. Back in 1Q'16 the following held true (discounts and rebates are even better now):
$47,275 MSRP - $7.5K Fed credit - $1K xDrive credit - $1.5K fleet credit - $250 = $37,025 purchase /cap cost.
64% residual, 1.56% interest (MSD = 0.00065) --> $241.14 monthly.

You can do even better these days:
https://insideevs.com/lease-51695-bmw-i3-112-per-month/

I think that article is fairly older. Do you know what the current discounts and rebates are now? 2.5k+250 doesn't seem like a lot.

[Red Bread]

The anti battery guy's know that petroleum doesn't come from the friendliest places, right? I keep seeing arguments that compare full product development of an EV to an ICE car with the gas magically refined and delivered to a gas station. Back it up to the source, including extraction and delivery to the dock, shipping across oceans burning bunker fuel and delivery to a refinery and delivery to the pumps and EV's don't look so bad.

While 33% of the US electricity is from coal, much of it is for rural areas that aren't the ideal fit for an EV anyway. It's certainly a potential issue for the rust belt, but CA uses coal for less than 0.1% of its power generation. In TX it's 26.3%, but the bulk of that is generated for rural communities so an EV is likely charging on Nat Gas, Nuclear or Wind. NY is 2%, PA is 27%, WV is 94%. You can use eai.gov to find where your state's power comes from and you can probably get more details on your monthly utility bill.

[RM7]

Show me on this puppet where the bad EVs touched you.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

How did you get a 240 lease payment on the i3, how much down?

Not the OP, but here's my payment, exec demo, zero down, max MSDs:



After insurance and fuel savings it's a free car.

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by jmg

Not the OP, but here's my payment, exec demo, zero down, max MSDs:



After insurance and fuel savings it's a free car.

Wow details?

[Dthltm]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

Wow details?

Yeah tell me more. I'd consider getting one of these things under the right financial circumstances.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

Wow details?

Originally Posted by Dthltm

Yeah tell me more. I'd consider getting one of these things under the right financial circumstances.

MSRP was ~$50k. It was an executive demo with loyalty, fleet, federal incentive, and $1200 in MSDs.

Outgoing 2015 on a 24/10k lease so they were willing to deal. ~$10k off before rebates. Similar deals were had on the outgoing 2017s earlier this year, but without MSDs.

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by jmg

MSRP was ~$50k. It was an executive demo with loyalty, fleet, federal incentive, and $1200 in MSDs.

Outgoing 2015 on a 24/10k lease so they were willing to deal. ~$10k off before rebates. Similar deals were had on the outgoing 2017s earlier this year, but without MSDs.

I never considered the car due to the short range and I figured it was still 400-500 a month to lease one even though they were selling poorly. Had I known it was 150-250 I probably would have gotten one to daily drive even though it's hideously ugly.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

I never considered the car due to the short range and I figured it was still 400-500 a month to lease one even though they were selling poorly. Had I known it was 150-250 I probably would have gotten one to daily drive even though it's hideously ugly.

It's ugly, but I've grown to like it because of how pleasant it is to drive. Much better than most of the 330i, 530i loaners I've gotten. It's a Range Extender, so I don't have any range anxiety. They are selling poorly, expect the leases to look a little better in the months to come. The 2017s were a steal, if you can still find one jump on it.