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      02-25-2021, 05:46 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier View Post
A: EVs make sense when you're buying them because of emotion instead of logic.
Makes me laugh to see this on a BMW forum.
right?

"Hi I'd like a semi-reliable car with super mediocre MPG and insane depreciation"
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My wife would give me so much head if I did that.
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      02-25-2021, 11:56 PM   #68
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A: EVs make sense when you're buying them because of emotion instead of logic.
Makes me laugh to see this on a BMW forum.
right?

"Hi I'd like a semi-reliable car with super mediocre MPG and insane depreciation"
My point is that it isn't about logic, it's about being "into it." You hear them... they're into the entire EV experience. Some are such fanboys that they'll belittle those who allegedly aren't evolved enough to buy an EV (yet).

In fairness this behavior isn't at all unique to EV culture. Some examples of the prevalence are RWD bias, MT bias, anti-SUV bias, German car bias, American truck bias, Jeep Wrangler bias, etc..

Emotion is driving their decision just like all of us. It's just that they may not share our same desires. 💡
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      02-26-2021, 04:08 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier View Post
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Originally Posted by Vivek. View Post
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Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier View Post
A: EVs make sense when you're buying them because of emotion instead of logic.
Makes me laugh to see this on a BMW forum.
right?

"Hi I'd like a semi-reliable car with super mediocre MPG and insane depreciation"
My point is that it isn't about logic, it's about being "into it." You hear them... they're into the entire EV experience. Some are such fanboys that they'll belittle those who allegedly aren't evolved enough to buy an EV (yet).

In fairness this behavior isn't at all unique to EV culture. Some examples of the prevalence are RWD bias, MT bias, anti-SUV bias, German car bias, American truck bias, Jeep Wrangler bias, etc..

Emotion is driving their decision just like all of us. It's just that they may not share our same desires. 💡
Why lump everyone into one big group? That's no better than EV owners belittling others for not getting an EV.

Personally it made perfect LOGICAL sense to me when I got one. Yes, I did save money, I reduced wear and tear on my M3, I used the carpool lane to save time, and the ability to turn on the AC with my phone, not just the fan, but the AC, in hot California summer was one of my most convenient features. I'm sorry you don't see the logic, but that doesn't mean that other people in different situations can't see it either.
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      02-26-2021, 06:23 AM   #70
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30 amp 110v, if the Volt is at zero, how long for it to get a full charge?

I think this would be impractical with the Bolt.
At zero to full charge was 11 hours.
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      02-26-2021, 07:18 AM   #71
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I was a pretty early adopter. We've had a 2013 Nissan Leaf for 4 years now. It's the best around-town car I've ever had. Extremely inexpensive, zippy enough and lots of room.
Our power in the PNW is CHEAP. $0.08/KWh. Regular unleaded is roughly $2.85 right now.
It's in the ballpark of 120 MPGe. Additionally, with regenerative braking, I never use the brakes. The ONLY maintenance to perform is coolant. However, an electric car is much easier on coolant, so it's a non-issue. Literally plug it in and forget about it. No trips to the gas station.
The technology is 100% superior if you can get it to fit into your life. We have another vehicle we use for road trips and towing. Electric cars are the perfect commuter car/2nd vehicle.
Edit: I don't understand why some people rail on electric vehicles. They aren't for everyone, but I've never met someone who purchased an electric vehicle and decided it wasn't for them. There's too many benefits for the few downsides.
Instant torque.
Fewer moving components = great reliability
No emissions testing (if applicable)
Quiet
The car doesn't need to be warmed up. Get in and drive however you need/want.
Convenient technology such as defrost/heater on a timer so that the car is warm (using house electricity) before you get in it.
Very good post, I agree with this. There is literally no electric car that will match an ICE car at the moment, and that's any category.... range, how fast to fill it up, weight, driver engagement, towing ect ect...

However, electric cars make GREAT backup/2nd cars that you can just pile the boring miles on. Really the only thing that scares me so far about them is the reliability. Yes, far less moving parts, but when things go wrong, it's going to be expensive and will I be able to fix it in the garage?

Still probably worth a punt though, I'm very tempted.
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      02-26-2021, 07:47 AM   #72
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Very good post, I agree with this. There is literally no electric car that will match an ICE car at the moment, and that's any category.... range, how fast to fill it up, weight, driver engagement, towing ect ect...

However, electric cars make GREAT backup/2nd cars that you can just pile the boring miles on. Really the only thing that scares me so far about them is the reliability. Yes, far less moving parts, but when things go wrong, it's going to be expensive and will I be able to fix it in the garage?

Still probably worth a punt though, I'm very tempted.
I disagree on the "any category". EV's are better than ICE when it comes to cost to fuel, maintenance, repair (should be), ease of daily use (if we bought one it would 100% be fueled at home and we wouldn't miss the gas station "experience") and reduced CO2. Like every other vehicle, none of them win in all categories. We don't have an SUV and both of my cars are RWD (wife's FWD) even though a small part of the time I would like an SUV and AWD.

There is no sports that will match a Honda Fit in most categories and the "better" car is an potential buyers decision and depends on what is important to you.

With the "what will I be able to fix in my garage" - car makers estimate the hours to build an EV are 30% less, before you worry about what you can fix you have to figure out what you expect will break and the number of components and complexity of what it going on is drastically reduced. How many sensors and moving parts are on a typical ICE today? The battery is the only thing that worries me at all long term. Electric motors, driving the wheels are extremely reliable and removing the transmission greatly helps overall.

There are a lot of things I don't like about EV's but long term reliability isn't one of them.
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      02-26-2021, 09:30 AM   #73
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I disagree on the "any category". EV's are better than ICE when it comes to cost to fuel, maintenance, repair (should be), ease of daily use (if we bought one it would 100% be fueled at home and we wouldn't miss the gas station "experience") and reduced CO2. Like every other vehicle, none of them win in all categories. We don't have an SUV and both of my cars are RWD (wife's FWD) even though a small part of the time I would like an SUV and AWD.

There is no sports that will match a Honda Fit in most categories and the "better" car is an potential buyers decision and depends on what is important to you.

With the "what will I be able to fix in my garage" - car makers estimate the hours to build an EV are 30% less, before you worry about what you can fix you have to figure out what you expect will break and the number of components and complexity of what it going on is drastically reduced. How many sensors and moving parts are on a typical ICE today? The battery is the only thing that worries me at all long term. Electric motors, driving the wheels are extremely reliable and removing the transmission greatly helps overall.

There are a lot of things I don't like about EV's but long term reliability isn't one of them.
I guess my point is you'll for the most part, an electric car will be the more compromised in one way or another compared to ICE in my humble opinion. For me personally, I cannot envision an electric car being my only vehicle (whether it's because not enough charging network, range, fun to drive ... i.e I prefer 3 pedals to have fun, noise ect). I do agree with you regarding ease of use, but for me personally, an electric car makes sense as a second car with the technology we have.

I completely agree that EV's have less moving parts, therefore it should be more reliable. But I know how to change oxygen sensors, do oil changes, have done rod bearings, replaced throttle actuators ect ect... I for one, would have no idea what to do if a car refuses to charge, or will not eject the charging chord, or if a module goes bad on an EV.

Just like modern/complicated ICE cars, it's not necessarily the mechanical stuff that scares me long term, it's the electrical aspect.
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      02-26-2021, 09:33 AM   #74
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So when does an all electric vehicle make sense?
A: EVs make sense when you're buying them because of emotion instead of logic.
If I was buying for emotion I'd be driving a Ferrari.
Me too! However there's plenty (maybe too many IMO) that find more appeal in vehicles like Tesla and iNext, and look down their nose at ICE-equipped vehicles as passé. Different things trigger emotions in different people. Emotion isn't exclusive to any one type of vehicles.
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      02-26-2021, 09:51 AM   #75
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Me too! However there's plenty (maybe too many IMO) that find more appeal in vehicles like Tesla and iNext, and look down their nose at ICE-equipped vehicles as passť. Different things trigger emotions in different people. Emotion isn't exclusive to any one type of vehicles.
What does any of that have to do with this thread?

Here's what I see: a perfectly legitimate discussion about different types of electric vehicles being trolled by an individual who a) didn't bother to read the thread b) has his/her own issues with the very emotion regulation he/she is complaining about in others.

How about this: if a thread doesn't interest you, just move on?
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      02-26-2021, 10:48 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier View Post
Me too! However there's plenty (maybe too many IMO) that find more appeal in vehicles like Tesla and iNext, and look down their nose at ICE-equipped vehicles as passé. Different things trigger emotions in different people. Emotion isn't exclusive to any one type of vehicles.
What does any of that have to do with this thread?

Here's what I see: a perfectly legitimate discussion about different types of electric vehicles being trolled by an individual who a) didn't bother to read the thread b) has his/her own issues with the very emotion regulation he/she is complaining about in others.

How about this: if a thread doesn't interest you, just move on?
I guess I'm failing to communicate that I'm sticking up for the EV enthusiasts here. 😔
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      02-26-2021, 12:31 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier View Post
Me too! However there's plenty (maybe too many IMO) that find more appeal in vehicles like Tesla and iNext, and look down their nose at ICE-equipped vehicles as passť. Different things trigger emotions in different people. Emotion isn't exclusive to any one type of vehicles.
I find the Taycan very appealing in it's own way. Tech appeals to me and while I don't see myself driving a Tesla, I can see myself in a Taycan. There are plenty of interesting EV's out there and I would include the i3 and i8 in that group. Fisker is also going to be coming back strong.
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      02-26-2021, 12:40 PM   #78
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Honestly, my PHEV is the best and the worst of both worlds.

For me it's the only thing that made sense and suited my needs to a T

However, as an electric car it's very low range and less efficient because it's having to haul a gasoline generator all the time. As an ICE vehicle it's horrible because it's hauling a heavy battery and 2 electric motors at the same time as well.

In the same token having to continually haul "dead weight" made it very flexible.

The low center of gravity weight makes the car feel very substantial and planted. But running on skinny 215mm wide tires did not help handling at all.
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      02-26-2021, 12:43 PM   #79
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Very good post, I agree with this. There is literally no electric car that will match an ICE car at the moment, and that's any category.... range, how fast to fill it up, weight, driver engagement, towing ect ect...
I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

My i3 is only 3000lbs, that already beats my M3 CS by 400-500lbs
Fill up is nonexistent since I just plug in every night.
There are EV's with 300+ ranges that will beat some gas guzzling SUVs and trucks
My i3 is much more engaging that the Suburban we rented for a roadtrip once.
The Tesla Model X can tow 5000lbs, much more than a MX-5.

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Originally Posted by W/// View Post
However, electric cars make GREAT backup/2nd cars that you can just pile the boring miles on.
That's exactly why I got the i3. Surprisingly I found it very fun to drive even on errands. While I still like to take the M3 out once and awhile around town, the i3 gives a different experience overall. I feel more relaxed in almost all aspects of driving without sacrificing the sporty feeling of a light, quick car. That instant torque just feel effortless. Windows down, sunroof open... its a nice drive.

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Originally Posted by W/// View Post
Really the only thing that scares me so far about them is the reliability. Yes, far less moving parts, but when things go wrong, it's going to be expensive and will I be able to fix it in the garage?
I haven't had any issues with my i3. Besides the carbon monocoque and perhaps the batter, there are no massively expensive parts. The 12V batter is known to need to be replaced for higher mileage i3's but that's about it. Tires are cheap too.
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      02-26-2021, 04:50 PM   #80
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I guess I'm failing to communicate that I'm sticking up for the EV enthusiasts here. 😔
I would agree that your are not communicating well. Anyway, feel free to enjoy the discussion, but let's not pull it off topic by making it an "us vs. them" thing. It's just people trying to share ideas and learn.

Oh, and regarding people who look down their nose at you (for any reason) - my advice is to ignore it and move on.
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      02-26-2021, 05:00 PM   #81
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Oh, and regarding people who look down their nose at you (for any reason) - my advice is to ignore it and move on.
Good advice. ��
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      02-27-2021, 08:07 PM   #82
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I mounted my car charger

For simplicity sake and for safety/security reason, I've decided to mount and lock my car charger.

I bought an electrical breaker box that's just a bit bigger than the control module for the charger and gutted the inside. Keeping in mind this is a 110/220v portable charger and not a standard wall mount unit. I was able to cut out a slot at the bottom to keep the module high and dry and away from the weather. The charger is waterproof of course but keeping it protected and lockable makes it easier to leave outside which makes charging and put away much easier.

The circuit breaker cut-out perfectly fits the charger view screen and control button. My buddy said he might even install a different box that would
have RV/NEMA 6-20 plug in one box so I don't have to use any adapter but still be able to use my RV plug when needed.
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      02-27-2021, 08:31 PM   #83
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For simplicity sake and for safety/security reason, I've decided to mount and lock my car charger.

I bought an electrical breaker box that's just a bit bigger than the control module for the charger and gutted the inside. Keeping in mind this is a 110/220v portable charger and not a standard wall mount unit. I was able to cut out a slot at the bottom to keep the module high and dry and away from the weather. The charger is waterproof of course but keeping it protected and lockable makes it easier to leave outside which makes charging and put away much easier.

The circuit breaker cut-out perfectly fits the charger view screen and control button. My buddy said he might even install a different box that would
have RV/NEMA 6-20 plug in one box so I don't have to use any adapter but still be able to use my RV plug when needed.

Clean. For now, you don't really need an EV but for sure in the near future. California is banning sales of gas vehicles by 2035 and GM is going all electric production by 2035. So, for now we're safe but 2035 ain't so far off considering it's only 14 years from now--a lot of manufacturers and States might change course towards electric in the mean time.
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      03-01-2021, 11:35 AM   #84
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My employer pays for my fuel... I wonder how I'd put the costs of EV charging at home on my expense report. Does anyone already do this and can detail how they recoup this expense?
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      03-01-2021, 11:44 AM   #85
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My wife and I own two vehicles. A 2014 BMW X3 28i and a 2020 Kia Soul EV with the 64 Kwh battery. We love the EV. We use it for my wife's commute and drive around town for her job. Before we bought the EV, we were spending over $700/month in gas for the bimmer. Our monthly fee, plus maintenance and electricity is around $600, so it was cheaper to get the EV. She also received .525 cents per KM to drive it for work. She drives about 50+ KMs every day, so the car is basically paying for itself. We use the bimmer for road trips etc. The EV range is around 420kms, which is TONS, but the ICE bimmer has no limitations.. soooo.....
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      03-01-2021, 03:28 PM   #86
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My employer pays for my fuel... I wonder how I'd put the costs of EV charging at home on my expense report. Does anyone already do this and can detail how they recoup this expense?
That's a good question. Were you issued a company charge card, or do you report miles through a form?

Before I was issued a card, it was in miles driven regardless of the cost of the fuel you bought, but that was literally a decade ago, I'm not sure what the new methods are. It would be the same for the EV, you get paid for the miles, not the cost of the electricity, similar to the post above me by anyland stated.

Today with the company charge card I just use the card for fuel, but I don't get reimbursed directly for charging at home.

That not a problem in some of my offices that provide free charging, but for home use you would have to calculate your expenses using your EV's consumption and your energy bill's rate per kWh and perhaps report it that way.

Personally, I have a home office and a portion of the electricity bill in included in the rent I have my company pay me. A portion of the utilities are also tax deductible as a business expense. You just have to make sure you do the math right and consult your accountant.
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      03-01-2021, 07:11 PM   #87
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That's a good question. Were you issued a company charge card, or do you report miles through a form?

Before I was issued a card, it was in miles driven regardless of the cost of the fuel you bought, but that was literally a decade ago, I'm not sure what the new methods are. It would be the same for the EV, you get paid for the miles, not the cost of the electricity, similar to the post above me by anyland stated.

Today with the company charge card I just use the card for fuel, but I don't get reimbursed directly for charging at home.

That not a problem in some of my offices that provide free charging, but for home use you would have to calculate your expenses using your EV's consumption and your energy bill's rate per kWh and perhaps report it that way.

Personally, I have a home office and a portion of the electricity bill in included in the rent I have my company pay me. A portion of the utilities are also tax deductible as a business expense. You just have to make sure you do the math right and consult your accountant.
It would be an interesting discussion with the CFO. Right now it's easy, we simply submit clear receipts for fuel and we're funded back 100%. A calculation of a portion of my overall electric bill is an additional burden that seems very unattractive. The other monetary benefit lost with an EV is I earn 4% back on fuel from my CC company. This is big when charging 94 octane over 30k miles a year.

No mileage report required as the monthly auto allowance covers wear and tear.
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      03-01-2021, 08:09 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier View Post
It would be an interesting discussion with the CFO. Right now it's easy, we simply submit clear receipts for fuel and we're funded back 100%. A calculation of a portion of my overall electric bill is an additional burden that seems very unattractive. The other monetary benefit lost with an EV is I earn 4% back on fuel from my CC company. This is big when charging 94 octane over 30k miles a year.

No mileage report required as the monthly auto allowance covers wear and tear.
Depending what state you are in, there could be incentives for your company to encourage "green" initiatives for its employees that they could pass on to you. There are also incentives for installing a charging station in your garage or even a credit from your power company. I got a $1000 check from SEC. that covers a lot of fuel reimbursements you could be losing. Eventually they will find a way to compensate you. It takes time, we're still in that awkward phase of adapting.
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