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      08-21-2019, 05:11 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Soterios View Post
I see this sentiment a lot on this forum. "BMW is killing the M Brand" In what way? Is someone shopping M4s REALLY not going to buy one because the M440i exists? A non BMW guy probably doesn't know the M440i even exists.

M4s aren't worse because M440is exist. M440is are better because M4s exist, though.
I feel like this is one of those "in a perfect world" posts that doesn't really apply to reality.

In a perfect world, we buy the best product available.

In reality:

1) Maserati still exists and people continue to buy those rolling pieces of trash
2) Apple is one of the biggest companies in the world even though they seldom had the best product on the market
3) No one wants to buy an American car even though a ZL1 1LE Camaro/Corvette walks all over anything BMW has to offer and the C8 only makes this worse for the future

I know this is a bit extreme but do you think Ferrari would still have the same religious following and buyer mass if they started putting their pony on a $30,000 hybrid?

The reality of the situation is that they are flooding the market with fake M cars, which to the majority of the public's eye is the same thing as an M car. This kills a little bit of that status/exclusivity that average joes get when they spend double the money on a real M car. Most people aren't automotive enthusiasts the way we are on here. Less money that goes to M cars, the shittier the product we get because there's a smaller market for them.
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      08-21-2019, 05:59 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellrotm View Post
Stopped caring when BMW starting putting M badges on non-M models.
Wow, so for 40 years??? BMW first made the M535i in 1979, and that came well before the E30 M3.

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      08-21-2019, 07:48 PM   #91
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With a straight face, ask them what the horsepower on their M3 is?

They will either A. lie to you or B. have to state that it isn't one making you happy
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      08-21-2019, 08:39 PM   #92
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I would buy the true M car for the performance and I donít care what anyone else does to their cars. Iíd never add N M to my 540 M sport. And if someone else wanted to do it whatever. Totally not me but everyone should do what they want.

My M3 always made me smile.
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      08-22-2019, 07:43 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYG View Post
I feel like this is one of those "in a perfect world" posts that doesn't really apply to reality.

In a perfect world, we buy the best product available.

In reality:

1) Maserati still exists and people continue to buy those rolling pieces of trash
2) Apple is one of the biggest companies in the world even though they seldom had the best product on the market
3) No one wants to buy an American car even though a ZL1 1LE Camaro/Corvette walks all over anything BMW has to offer and the C8 only makes this worse for the future

I know this is a bit extreme but do you think Ferrari would still have the same religious following and buyer mass if they started putting their pony on a $30,000 hybrid?

The reality of the situation is that they are flooding the market with fake M cars, which to the majority of the public's eye is the same thing as an M car. This kills a little bit of that status/exclusivity that average joes get when they spend double the money on a real M car. Most people aren't automotive enthusiasts the way we are on here. Less money that goes to M cars, the shittier the product we get because there's a smaller market for them.
I think the difference in our thought process is how we see the M brand and the BMW brand.

I don't think comparing Ferrari prestige to M brand prestige is apples to apples. Ferrari to BMW maybe, and BMW does what you say. They made $130,000 M cars, but they also make $35,000 family sedans.

I think for the general market, the M brand doesn't have the global prestige a lot of this forum think it does. Most of my non car friends don't know what an M is. (Though you're probably right that if they saw an M240i next to an M6 they would probably assume a similar pedigree)


I do see your point about the market size, but then I have to somewhat contradict myself and say that the base of consumers that already is shopping BMW is (just based on the fact that BMW is doing it) can't (or doesn't want to) afford an M car, but CAN afford this 'cool' M Package. So it's Selling the same amount of cars, but increasing revenue.

Even with BMW pandering to people who want the cool M look without the M price, I'm still not sure that someone shopping for an M3 is going to pass on the car because the M340i exists. Especially with how down their nose a lot of the M ownership acts even towards the general BMW population. The cars are still extra special because they want them to be.
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      08-22-2019, 08:15 AM   #94
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In my experience, public opinion varies by manufacturer and model.


When I was in high school, my cousin had a G35 coupe. Everybody and their brother made fun of him when he took the Infiniti lettering off the trunk and put on a Skyline badge to replace it. Regardless of the fact that it indeed was a Nissan Skyline in Japan, it didn't matter to anyone. Yet nobody I knew made fun of those who had a 350z and swapped the badge for a "Fairlady Z" other than for the name being a little strange in the US. Once explained, it clicked, and they moved on.


Nobody thinks twice when someone swaps a BRZ/FR-S badge for a GT86 badge, even though this is the exact same situation as the G35/Skyline thing.


And now this brings me to BMW. BMW themselves are putting M badges on non-M models, so this emboldens people to slap them on themselves. I had to hold myself back from correcting my brother in law who was looking at a 7 series and said it was the M model (as in a M7). In that case, I just come off as condescending if I say anything. Laymen car shoppers actually believe these M sport lite models are full on M cars, and BMW is to blame for this. I don't get bent out of shape over it - it really doesn't bother me that much. But when I've tried correcting people to inform them, in most cases it just ends up being an awkward conversation that I wish I didn't start.


Now I just let them live in blissful ignorance. It doesn't bother me, but it sure makes them feel a whole lot better about themselves.
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      08-22-2019, 08:53 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntgarage44 View Post
In my experience, public opinion varies by manufacturer and model.


When I was in high school, my cousin had a G35 coupe. Everybody and their brother made fun of him when he took the Infiniti lettering off the trunk and put on a Skyline badge to replace it. Regardless of the fact that it indeed was a Nissan Skyline in Japan, it didn't matter to anyone. Yet nobody I knew made fun of those who had a 350z and swapped the badge for a "Fairlady Z" other than for the name being a little strange in the US. Once explained, it clicked, and they moved on.


Nobody thinks twice when someone swaps a BRZ/FR-S badge for a GT86 badge, even though this is the exact same situation as the G35/Skyline thing.


And now this brings me to BMW. BMW themselves are putting M badges on non-M models, so this emboldens people to slap them on themselves. I had to hold myself back from correcting my brother in law who was looking at a 7 series and said it was the M model (as in a M7). In that case, I just come off as condescending if I say anything. Laymen car shoppers actually believe these M sport lite models are full on M cars, and BMW is to blame for this. I don't get bent out of shape over it - it really doesn't bother me that much. But when I've tried correcting people to inform them, in most cases it just ends up being an awkward conversation that I wish I didn't start.


Now I just let them live in blissful ignorance. It doesn't bother me, but it sure makes them feel a whole lot better about themselves.
I like the examples because it's a good showcase of the fact that it's REALLY a small percentage of car enthusiasts that are truly "in the know" with this stuff.

Your friend got hate from people for putting a Skyline badge on a chassis that is (overseas) a Skyline.

Your BIL is probably going to get razzed for the opposite. People in the know will correct HIS ignorance to what the car truly is.


It is interesting to me how much the letter "M" itself is the center of controversy. Lots of 1 series folk put on replica 1M bumpers and no one bats an eye. Run ARC8 wheels that are essentially knock off 1M wheels and no one minds. Stick an M stripe or letter somewhere on the car though and the gates open. Haha
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      08-22-2019, 09:00 AM   #96
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      08-22-2019, 09:25 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soterios View Post
I think the difference in our thought process is how we see the M brand and the BMW brand.

I don't think comparing Ferrari prestige to M brand prestige is apples to apples. Ferrari to BMW maybe, and BMW does what you say. They made $130,000 M cars, but they also make $35,000 family sedans.

I think for the general market, the M brand doesn't have the global prestige a lot of this forum think it does. Most of my non car friends don't know what an M is. (Though you're probably right that if they saw an M240i next to an M6 they would probably assume a similar pedigree)


I do see your point about the market size, but then I have to somewhat contradict myself and say that the base of consumers that already is shopping BMW is (just based on the fact that BMW is doing it) can't (or doesn't want to) afford an M car, but CAN afford this 'cool' M Package. So it's Selling the same amount of cars, but increasing revenue.

Even with BMW pandering to people who want the cool M look without the M price, I'm still not sure that someone shopping for an M3 is going to pass on the car because the M340i exists. Especially with how down their nose a lot of the M ownership acts even towards the general BMW population. The cars are still extra special because they want them to be.
The Ferrari example was definitely extreme but it was just to illustrate that a lot of people that spend a hefty amount of money on a vehicle do care about branding and the status that comes with it. While M cars aren't the same level, they're still beyond the average car buyer's price range.

I think that for guys/ladies like us, we're obviously looking for more than just an M badge so it doesn't really matter to us. While BMW makes more sales with fake M cars, they'll inevitably lose sales on real M cars as a result. Remember all the articles back when the M550 came out and out accelerated the previous gen M5? They were basically calling everyone stupid for even getting an M5. Everyone ate that nonsense up even though the M550 wasn't half the car the M5 was. My M Performance 440 probably accelerates faster than my M4CS in most driving conditions and it does it consistently. It's still a complete joke of a sports car (compared to the M4) where it matters and I've tracked that pig before too.

The average buyer just bypasses the M and settles on a more affordable fake M. So BMW sells more cars in general but begins to care less about making real M cars. None of our cars are built ground-up to be sports cars. I've already spent a ridiculous amount of money on my M4 to get it where it should have been and I'm probably not even done yet. I just know for a fact that unless BMW makes a miracle happen, there's no chance I'd pay in the 85k range for a G80/G82 when I could have a tracked out C8 Stingray for 70-75K that was actually built to perform, not modified to perform. Or spend a little more and get a Porsche.
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      08-22-2019, 09:48 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYG View Post
The Ferrari example was definitely extreme but it was just to illustrate that a lot of people that spend a hefty amount of money on a vehicle do care about branding and the status that comes with it. While M cars aren't the same level, they're still beyond the average car buyer's price range.

I think that for guys/ladies like us, we're obviously looking for more than just an M badge so it doesn't really matter to us. While BMW makes more sales with fake M cars, they'll inevitably lose sales on real M cars as a result. Remember all the articles back when the M550 came out and out accelerated the previous gen M5? They were basically calling everyone stupid for even getting an M5. Everyone ate that nonsense up even though the M550 wasn't half the car the M5 was. My M Performance 440 probably accelerates faster than my M4CS in most driving conditions and it does it consistently. It's still a complete joke of a sports car (compared to the M4) where it matters and I've tracked that pig before too.

The average buyer just bypasses the M and settles on a more affordable fake M. So BMW sells more cars in general but begins to care less about making real M cars. None of our cars are built ground-up to be sports cars. I've already spent a ridiculous amount of money on my M4 to get it where it should have been and I'm probably not even done yet. I just know for a fact that unless BMW makes a miracle happen, there's no chance I'd pay in the 85k range for a G80/G82 when I could have a tracked out C8 Stingray for 70-75K that was actually built to perform, not modified to perform. Or spend a little more and get a Porsche.
I get that. I only loosely paid attention to BMW across the decades. At least since 2000, I've always considered BMW to me a 'good' sports car. Their reputation was always that their cars were too soft to be great sports cars and too sporty to be great tourers. There's nothing wrong with that, and I certainly see the appeal of the halfway car.

I can't really think of a BMW that was ever the pinnacle of anything in the auto industry because they've always had that underlying luxury focus with few exceptions. I think in general, cars are getting worse for 'track' use but I don't think most cars were ever meant to be for track use, they were just easier to tune/modify/tinker.

I get your hesitation to buy though. BMW doesn't make that many products that I'm actually interested in. I only ended up in the 135i because of it's bang for the buck speed in a leather coat. haha.
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      08-22-2019, 10:05 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soterios View Post
I get that. I only loosely paid attention to BMW across the decades. At least since 2000, I've always considered BMW to me a 'good' sports car. Their reputation was always that their cars were too soft to be great sports cars and too sporty to be great tourers. There's nothing wrong with that, and I certainly see the appeal of the halfway car.

I can't really think of a BMW that was ever the pinnacle of anything in the auto industry because they've always had that underlying luxury focus with few exceptions. I think in general, cars are getting worse for 'track' use but I don't think most cars were ever meant to be for track use, they were just easier to tune/modify/tinker.

I get your hesitation to buy though. BMW doesn't make that many products that I'm actually interested in. I only ended up in the 135i because of it's bang for the buck speed in a leather coat. haha.
Same. I got my CS for around 30k under sticker.
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      08-22-2019, 10:39 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soterios View Post
I get that. I only loosely paid attention to BMW across the decades. At least since 2000, I've always considered BMW to me a 'good' sports car. Their reputation was always that their cars were too soft to be great sports cars and too sporty to be great tourers. There's nothing wrong with that, and I certainly see the appeal of the halfway car.

I can't really think of a BMW that was ever the pinnacle of anything in the auto industry because they've always had that underlying luxury focus with few exceptions. I think in general, cars are getting worse for 'track' use but I don't think most cars were ever meant to be for track use, they were just easier to tune/modify/tinker.

I get your hesitation to buy though. BMW doesn't make that many products that I'm actually interested in. I only ended up in the 135i because of it's bang for the buck speed in a leather coat. haha.
Yeah, I honestly don’t think most people know the difference of having an M badge on a BMW, anyways. Even a $130k BMW won’t have the prestige of a Porsche, or maybe even a Mercedes, to most of the public. I’m actually ok with that. “Peacocking” around in a Porsche was my least favorite thing about those cars. People are constantly looking and noticing a Porsche, but BMWs fly under the radar. Reminds me of the old “Whispering Bomb” BMW 2002 review from the ‘60s, which is a good thing, IMO. I like a sleeper.

I was never a huge BMW fan, but I bought a 135i, because Porsche doesn’t make a small coupe with a real backseat, and I wanted to mod it myself, so the 1M’s collector used prices didn’t make sense. Now that I’ve put so much thought and work into my 135i, I think I’ve grown to love it more than my former Porsches by making it my own, and I wouldn’t trade it for an M car.

In terms of badging, I debadged my car like usual, and I even took the little Ms off the wheels, but I don’t mind the few little Ms in the interior.

Last edited by duder13; 08-22-2019 at 11:13 AM..
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      08-22-2019, 10:46 AM   #101
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I've always been a 'less is more' type. Function over form, I guess. My last car was a black E92 335, I opted for a black anodized FMIC for the stealth factor, swapped out the chrome badging on the trunk for black, etc.

The only sticker/decal I've had on any of my cars is attached.

Putting fake badging on cars, not sure what drives this. Is it wishful thinking? Looking to the future? *shrug* I'm finally to the age at which I could afford my new used M4, and as I move down the mod path everything will be as subtle as possible. Because that's what I dig. And no stickers or Ferrari badges.
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      08-23-2019, 09:36 AM   #102
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