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      03-06-2023, 03:12 PM   #1497
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Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
Many people don't want an ev now. Talking about it as 'fear' isn't accurate. I've test driven the y and s and travelled 1000s of miles in a mates model s. Doesn't make me want one/Doesn't appeal to me or my use case. Currently I have free choice to say no and buy what I want
By repeatedly talking about 2035 we are reminded of that free choice ending and that's where the problem lies. EVs need government mandates and subsidies etc to move ahead. Its an agenda that probably most folk on the street think is a pie in the sky.

They announced the 2035 ban when? 2020?

They gave everyone 15 years. Not 15 months or 15 days.

This technology will get better over time. Will it be fully ready by 2035? Probably not but weíll be close.
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      03-06-2023, 03:21 PM   #1498
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Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
They announced the 2035 ban when? 2020?

They gave everyone 15 years. Not 15 months or 15 days.

This technology will get better over time. Will it be fully ready by 2035? Probably not but weíll be close.
Tesla is the ev leader..Look where the tesla is.... its been over 5 years since it became mass market and it pretty much churns out the same looking vehicle and models,
throw in a niche Plaid here or a raven there ..take away some radar or performance brakes there from mass sellers..
if this is how much can change in 5 + years there really is no hope in 15 years.
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      03-06-2023, 03:35 PM   #1499
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Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
Tesla is the ev leader..Look where the tesla is.... its been over 5 years since it became mass market and it pretty much churns out the same looking vehicle and models,
throw in a niche Plaid here or a raven there ..take away some radar or performance brakes there from mass sellers..
if this is how much can change in 5 + years there really is no hope in 15 years.
Brother look at when the model s was first debuted and when it became the fastest production car in the world. Look at its range too.

Look at what the tesla supercharging network has brought. I think without that tesla would be irrelevant.

The model 3/y are the best selling evís to this day. Theyíre doing something right.
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      03-06-2023, 03:41 PM   #1500
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Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
The model 3/y are the best selling evís to this day. Theyíre doing something right.
This is like going to a craft-brew web forum and explaining that Budweiser is the best selling beer in the US. While true, it doesn't' really say much about the beer, of the customers that drink bud.
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      03-06-2023, 03:43 PM   #1501
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Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
This is like going to a craft-brew web forum and explaining that Budweiser is the best selling beer in the US. While true, it doesn't' really say much about the beer, of the customers that drink bud.
And just like that beer company, car makers are trying to make money.

People complain about the constant rise from an already expensive tesla and yet ITS STILL THE BEST SELLING EV TODAY.

so yeah Iíll have a Budweiser on that note!
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      03-06-2023, 03:45 PM   #1502
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Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
Tesla is the ev leader..Look where the tesla is.... its been over 5 years since it became mass market and it pretty much churns out the same looking vehicle and models,
throw in a niche Plaid here or a raven there ..take away some radar or performance brakes there from mass sellers..
if this is how much can change in 5 + years there really is no hope in 15 years.
I wouldnít use Tesla as a way to estimate future industry progress over a 15 year span. Each manufacturer will have their own priorities and competitive motivators that will lead to interesting solutions being attempted to all of the challenges to getting us to the 2035 goal ó a goal that only covers a few states in the US BTW.

Iíve driven Teslaís on a test drive. Not a car Iím excited about and not one Iíd own. I really enjoy my BMW 530e PHEV though and Iím sure Iíll enjoy a BMW BEV. Tesla is too focused on building cars for people who hate driving. Thatís OK, Iím just not their target consumer. BMW is building EVs for people like me thoughÖ And thatís the same in the ICE world. A Toyota doesnít drive like a BMW and a BMW doesnít drive like a Porsche.
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      03-06-2023, 03:56 PM   #1503
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Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
And just like that beer company, car makers are trying to make money.

People complain about the constant rise from an already expensive tesla and yet ITS STILL THE BEST SELLING EV TODAY.

so yeah Iíll have a Budweiser on that note!
Like beer companies, some car companies also want to make a good product.

Like beer consumers, some car customers also want to buy a good product.

profit leder =/= good product, They can co-exist, but it's not a predictive factor.

volume leader =/= good product, They can co-exist, but it's not a predictive factor.

Last edited by chad86tsi; 03-06-2023 at 04:05 PM..
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      03-06-2023, 03:58 PM   #1504
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Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
Brother look at when the model s was first debuted and when it became the fastest production car in the world. Look at its range too.

Look at what the tesla supercharging network has brought. I think without that tesla would be irrelevant.

The model 3/y are the best selling evís to this day. Theyíre doing something right.
They've done many things right. It's worth keeping in mind that standing still is running backwards as things stand.
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      03-06-2023, 04:10 PM   #1505
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Originally Posted by LogicalApex View Post
I wouldnít use Tesla as a way to estimate future industry progress over a 15 year span. Each manufacturer will have their own priorities and competitive motivators that will lead to interesting solutions being attempted to all of the challenges to getting us to the 2035 goal ó a goal that only covers a few states in the US BTW.

Iíve driven Teslaís on a test drive. Not a car Iím excited about and not one Iíd own. I really enjoy my BMW 530e PHEV though and Iím sure Iíll enjoy a BMW BEV. Tesla is too focused on building cars for people who hate driving. Thatís OK, Iím just not their target consumer. BMW is building EVs for people like me thoughÖ And thatís the same in the ICE world. A Toyota doesnít drive like a BMW and a BMW doesnít drive like a Porsche.
Agree with 99% of what you say
Regarding the '2035 goal'
It's really not a goal that many people based on what they hear and see think can be realistic.. or else there won't be debates..
many even don't even see it as a goal that they subscribe to.
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      03-06-2023, 04:48 PM   #1506
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Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
They've done many things right. It's worth keeping in mind that standing still is running backwards as things stand.
I'm not saying they're the best car brand in the world. I like my model 3 but it's not like i jerk off to it like some people do to their BMW's here.

They still run the EV world PERIOD. What they have done since the debut of the model s no one has reached yet. There is no ifs ands or buts about it.

The fact that their model 3/y, as expensive as it was when it first debuted, to the sudden price increases each model year, has been the best selling EV, says something.

It means those who want to experience this, have decided that there isn't anything else out there that offers what tesla offers at that price point. Which is what i was referencing months ago. Some people might have way better build quality, ok but then the performance and range isn't there. Some might have decent or on par performance with tesla, but then the range isn't there. Some people might find similar range as tesla, but the performance and price point isn't there.

I kept on saying it will take 5-8 years for car makers to fully catch up and surpass tesla if tesla, like you said, decides to just stand still.

If tesla finally brings out that 25k EV, depending on the specs, it will keep tesla ahead of everyone else. The charging network put tesla on the map, no pun intended.


This will get better as time moves on. Trust me. It doesn't look like that but it already has, and will.

2035 seems close but it's still far away. Wait until we get closer to 2030 you guys will see. Then you all can say, holy shit that fucking shithead BGM knew it all along.
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      03-06-2023, 04:51 PM   #1507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
Agree with 99% of what you say
Regarding the '2035 goal'
It's really not a goal that many people based on what they hear and see think can be realistic.. or else there won't be debates..
many even don't even see it as a goal that they subscribe to.
This is kind of frustrating. Itís not a goal. Itís a mandate forced upon capitalists and consumers by governments. I wish the government would force all of you people to buy my products by 2035. I make health products that if you install them in your house, you live healthier. Maybe government should force people to be healthier or at least make a law that itís going to be forced on them by 2035? I bet if they made such a law, Iíd have the number one selling products of my kind in the history at my industry.

I do like Elon musk, and his company Tesla, but does anyone here think that company wouldíve made it out be anywhere close to where it is today had it not been for all the tax incentives his products got? Of course not. Iím not even going to entertain a discussion on that. We all know what the truth is. Well, itís only going to get worse as they start to force this on people. But Iím still banking cooler heads will prevail in the not too distant future. Let consumers decide what they want. Free capitalism. It works every time itís tried.
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      03-06-2023, 05:39 PM   #1508
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Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
I'm not saying they're the best car brand in the world. I like my model 3 but it's not like i jerk off to it like some people do to their BMW's here.

They still run the EV world PERIOD. What they have done since the debut of the model s no one has reached yet. There is no ifs ands or buts about it.

The fact that their model 3/y, as expensive as it was when it first debuted, to the sudden price increases each model year, has been the best selling EV, says something.


It means those who want to experience this, have decided that there isn't anything else out there that offers what tesla offers at that price point. Which is what i was referencing months ago. Some people might have way better build quality, ok but then the performance and range isn't there. Some might have decent or on par performance with tesla, but then the range isn't there. Some people might find similar range as tesla, but the performance and price point isn't there.

I kept on saying it will take 5-8 years for car makers to fully catch up and surpass tesla if tesla, like you said, decides to just stand still.

If tesla finally brings out that 25k EV, depending on the specs, it will keep tesla ahead of everyone else. The charging network put tesla on the map, no pun intended.


This will get better as time moves on. Trust me. It doesn't look like that but it already has, and will.

2035 seems close but it's still far away. Wait until we get closer to 2030 you guys will see. Then you all can say, holy shit that fucking shithead BGM knew it all along.
Err no.

Do you even follow them?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/qai/202...h-ev-industry/



Plus in the last few hours another 3k slashed off model y
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ond-time-year/

Also if the past few hours

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/06/tesl...-9percent.html
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      03-06-2023, 06:16 PM   #1509
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https://www.statista.com/statistics/...lling%20models.

The Tesla Model Y was the world’s most popular plug-in electric vehicle with worldwide unit sales of roughly 771,300 in 2022. That year, deliveries of Tesla's Model 3 and Model Y have surpassed 1.2 million, which was a year-over-year increase of 36.77 percent for Tesla's best-selling models.


https://cleantechnica.com/2023/03/03...%20of%20growth.

The Tesla Model Y is #1 again in the electric vehicle market. Registrations were up 10% year over year (YoY) in January, to over 662,000 units. China’s market was the main driver of growth.

https://www.thehealthyjournal.com/fa...ld%20in%202021.

Who is leading in electric car sales?
At the top of the list of electric car models sold is Tesla's Model 3, with approximately 501,000 sold in 2021.
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      03-06-2023, 06:47 PM   #1510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
Err no.

Do you even follow them?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/qai/202...h-ev-industry/



Plus in the last few hours another 3k slashed off model y
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ond-time-year/

Also if the past few hours

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/06/tesl...-9percent.html
market analyst to CEO:"We are market leaders and our sales figures are booming"
CEo to marketing team "lets slash prices."


This conversation ^ has never occured in any healthy business in any market segment, ever in recorded history. That it has happened at tesla is pretty, interesting...
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      03-06-2023, 07:00 PM   #1511
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Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
market analyst to CEO:"We are market leaders and our sales figures are booming"
CEo to marketing team "lets slash prices."


This conversation ^ has never occured in any healthy business in any market segment, ever in recorded history. That it has happened at tesla is pretty, interesting...
Actually, this has occurred in many boardrooms across the country and it is a valid competitive strategy for a short time or for a long time depending on the goals of the company.

The classic term for this is a ďloss leaderĒ pricing strategy. Long term implementation of that strategy is done to drive sales in a more profitable section of the business (like selling a printer below cost to make it up selling overpriced ink). Another use of this is to attempt to corner a market early to maintain dominance once youíve become entrenched and can push prices up.

Tesla may be leading the EV sales race right now, but they arenít leading the car sales race overall and they have competitive headwinds that are getting very strong as traditional automakers aggressively move into EVs. Capitalizing on their current lead and branding might allow them to gain more new customers who will buy another Tesla and not end up in the EV of another brand in the future.

Business 101
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      03-06-2023, 07:07 PM   #1512
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Originally Posted by LogicalApex View Post
Actually, this has occurred in many boardrooms across the country and it is a valid competitive strategy for a short time or for a long time depending on the goals of the company.

The classic term for this is a “loss leader” pricing strategy. Long term implementation of that strategy is done to drive sales in a more profitable section of the business (like selling a printer below cost to make it up selling overpriced ink). Another use of this is to attempt to corner a market early to maintain dominance once you’ve become entrenched and can push prices up.

Tesla may be leading the EV sales race right now, but they aren’t leading the car sales race overall and they have competitive headwinds that are getting very strong as traditional automakers aggressively move into EVs. Capitalizing on their current lead and branding might allow them to gain more new customers who will buy another Tesla and not end up in the EV of another brand in the future.

Business 101
Did yo umiss that they have slashed everything? That's not a loss leader strategy. Loss leaders are selling Lays potato chips for less than normal cost, knowing you will make it back on soda beer and hot dogs.


Home depot used to sell sheet OSB for a loss, but if you are buying OSB, you are also buying nails, other lumber, and usually siding or roofing, and lots of other profitable goods.

Tesla is selling cars, it has slashed the prices on all their cars, all of them.


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      03-06-2023, 07:10 PM   #1513
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Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
Okay then, this synthetic fuel that Germany is going to delve into more is interesting but they could have put a better case to the eu bods that hits it on the nail more in that working and middle class people simply won't be able to afford EV's.
I can't imagine this stuff will be anywhere near as cheap as refined dino-juice. Even if only 50% more expensive in Europe (there will be zero interest in North America) that will be some expensive fuel!
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      03-06-2023, 07:18 PM   #1514
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I can't imagine this stuff will be anywhere near as cheap as refined dino-juice. Even if only 50% more expensive in Europe (there will be zero interest in North America) that will be some expensive fuel!
what is strange in all of this is that we already have organic carbon neutral ICE fuel. Henry ford developed his first ICE to run on it: Ethanol. It's cheaper than regular gas per gallon and easy to make too (simple infrastructure).

Seems the government doesn't want us to use it, for some strange reason. Perhaps they need to use a mandate.
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      03-06-2023, 07:26 PM   #1515
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Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
Did yo umiss that they have slashed everything? That's not a loss leader strategy. Loss leaders are selling Lays potato chips for less than normal cost, knowing you will make it back on soda beer and hot dogs.


Home depot used to sell sheet OSB for a loss, but if you are buying OSB, you are also buying nails, other lumber, and usually siding or roofing, and lots of other profitable goods.

Tesla is selling cars, it has slashed the prices on all their cars, all of them.

Car companies have had loss leader strategiesÖ

As I said earlier, it is driven by them attempting to head off competition by capitalizing on their brand lead right now. A sign they expect competition to be stiff so they are trying to get out ahead of it.

Will it work? I donít have a crystal ball.

But them feeling the pressure means the automotive landscape for EVs is about to go through a lot of radical adjustments in Teslaís forecasts and they donít think they have a clear long term competitive advantage that allows them to charge a premium. They arenít Apple who can raise prices during a recession where Android OEMs are cutting them due to softening demand.

In economics terms this is called ďprice elasticity of demandĒÖ Apple can charge more because their demand isnít tied very much to price. So they donít need to join those Android OEMs in price cuts when the market goes soft and they can instead raise them to maintain their profit margin as inflation undercuts it.

This is all Economics 101

Last edited by LogicalApex; 03-06-2023 at 07:44 PM..
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      03-06-2023, 07:29 PM   #1516
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Originally Posted by LogicalApex View Post
Actually, this has occurred in many boardrooms across the country and it is a valid competitive strategy for a short time or for a long time depending on the goals of the company.

The classic term for this is a “loss leader” pricing strategy. Long term implementation of that strategy is done to drive sales in a more profitable section of the business (like selling a printer below cost to make it up selling overpriced ink). Another use of this is to attempt to corner a market early to maintain dominance once you’ve become entrenched and can push prices up.

Tesla may be leading the EV sales race right now, but they aren’t leading the car sales race overall and they have competitive headwinds that are getting very strong as traditional automakers aggressively move into EVs. Capitalizing on their current lead and branding might allow them to gain more new customers who will buy another Tesla and not end up in the EV of another brand in the future.

Business 101

That's how i see it.

They see their competition move in on this EV race so they slash prices to stay on top of the game. There is no doubt there are many MANY fans of teslas but most likely can't afford it, or justify the price to get the best bang for buck (even at it's current price point, or before the price cut) EV on the market today. That's why the 3/Y has done so well.

It might not be smart from a business standpoint, but that's not my forte. The only thing i see is that they see competition coming, so they cut prices to attract NEW buyers who might not want to introduce themselves to the EV world at the price point tesla has normalized in.

Smart but maybe not? Either way, elon is smart. So he knows what he's doing.

Car makers will catch up i'm sure. That's what i been saying. I can't wait to see this "25k tesla" elon has been cooking the past couple of years. He needs to introduce this to keep his EV crown on his head.
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      03-06-2023, 08:51 PM   #1517
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Listen, I'm not trying to attack you here, but numerous times you've stated you've "blown away" other Posters when they've "debated" you, so you stand to take a test on your debating skills. I clearly pointed out my position is EV are not going to get less expensive because the cost of battery technology is not going to get less expensive than where lithium ion is now. The cost of producing EV is mostly in the cost of the battery. I pointed to the economics of manufacturing that any new battery technology will start at the top of the production cost curve and take the same time to come down the cost curve as lithium ion has. But to make EV less expensive the cost per kWh needs to come way down below where wet lithium is now and dry lithium solid-state batteries need to have much more energy density.

Your counter argument to my position is (a) Tesla has made a $25K EV, but "it's just not out yet", and (b) the Japanese and Koreans are going to sell EV, where you postulate just because they are Asian manufacturers, they won't sell $50K - $60K EV.

That's not debating. You offered no facts or reasonable position based on sound business or engineering principles why EV batteries will become less expensive to be cost competitive with ICE (assuming governments just don't tax the living shit out of gasoline and diesel). That's why you failed the debate.

All of your debate responses to any of us are void of reasoning other than "the EV shit's going to happen, lmaooo" and "I love 2035!" Your newest response is now that we are all "EV haters" because we "fear" the [...]
All valid points, but unless you enjoy raising your blood pressure, Iíd just block him at this point.
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      03-06-2023, 10:17 PM   #1518
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Nah, my BP is just fine. But thanks for your concern. He's somewhat entertaining, like a circus act.
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