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      04-01-2021, 07:26 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
though neither is the engine type ... I love V8s, but I'll keep an open mind about the vehicle. I've driven a few vehicles with real soul and engine type is not a common factor.
The engine might not be the only thing that matters, but it's certainly a huge part for me. I pretty much like all ICE, but the 4 cylinders are at the bottom of the list for me. I don't like their NVH compared to others, including 3 cylinders. Experiences include S2000, Alfa Romeo 4C, BMW/MINI's, Audi/VW...

So I just want to reiterate, I'm not saying cars like S2000's don't have souls, far from it. I'd just like it better with another engine
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      04-01-2021, 07:30 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiMSport View Post
A good example of that is the Porsche 718.
Agree, would not buy the four here either. Would add the character that remains in the 4 is because the flat 4 is used by only them and Subaru. Almost everyone makes an inline 4 and they sound and feel too alike, fine when you aren't paying a big premium as an enthusiast. Porsche realized that I am not alone and decided to come out with the GTS (NA flat 6) and kept the GT4.

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Originally Posted by syd34 View Post
Yes, I agree that majority of buyers for this car outside the enthusiast crowd won't care about the lack of a V8 and the associated sound/exhaust note.

LOL about the M240 comment. My biggest frustration is when non-car people ask me about the V6 under my hood...
I agree, the AMG buyers that aren't enthusiasts shouldn't have a big problem with it. I thought AMG was trying to cater to the enthusiast. Maybe they can make the badge a lot larger, that will help with some part of the market.

For the M240 comment, at least they know it's a 6 and as expected you as the enthusiast are bothered they know it's a 6 but have the wrong 6. Imagine your new AMG and they ask you about the V8, you point out the turbo I4 hybrid is similar to their turbo I4 hybrid Accord.
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      04-01-2021, 08:08 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
I can just imagine if BMW claimed the next M3/M4 was going to be 4-cyl FWD with electric driven rear wheels.
I don't think that's quite accurate. It still has a driveshaft connecting the engine to the rear wheels for true AWD. The motors are in the rear, but they transmit power to front as well since everything is connected.

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There would be a meltdown at this forum of epic proportions.
I don't disagree with you there.

Right now, the big question for the next M3/M4 is, will the next 3 Series and 4 Series use CLAR, or will they switch to the Neue Klasse architecture that BMW just announced. If the latter then the setup may be very close to what you describe - only the front wheels connected to the ICE. However, since the next 3 Series would begin very soon (if it hasn't already) for its 2025 SOP, it's not clear whether the timing will enable it to use the brand new platform or not.
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      04-01-2021, 08:35 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by W/// View Post
I can respect your opinion, and clearly you've got some pretty tasty cars...
Back at you

Favorable commentary is based on future powertrain options in class, not historical. What are our options?

Character is probably gone for good. Checked out with the E9X imo. In its absence, I'll take new and intriguing.

As things are shaping up, it's going to be pick your flavor of turbo 6's or, if AMG do this right, perceptible, in your face F1 tech.

It won't be my favorite motorsport to daily driver link of all time, but it will be authentic motorsport. Think all of the turbo 6's might look pretty crude by comparison, but we'll see.
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      04-01-2021, 08:46 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I agree, the AMG buyers that aren't enthusiasts shouldn't have a big problem with it. I thought AMG was trying to cater to the enthusiast. Maybe they can make the badge a lot larger, that will help with some part of the market.
I don't understand this perspective. The S58 is more motorsport than what AMG have in the hopper?

If you're an enthusiast, motorsport fan, you'll have the S58 over 7x WCC F1 tech?

AMG have dominated the highest form of motorsport in the world for 7+ years. BMW M is nowhere right now. Torturing their biggest GT into a race car.
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      04-01-2021, 09:09 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
I don't understand this perspective. The S58 is more motorsport than what AMG have in the hopper?

If you're an enthusiast, motorsport fan, you'll have the S58 over 7x WCC F1 tech?

AMG have dominated the highest form of motorsport in the world for 7+ years. BMW M is nowhere right now. Torturing their biggest GT into a race car.
The F1 engine is a 1.6L V-6 with pneumatic valves/short stroke to allow it to rev to 15k rpm with poor low end power but then does very well at high rpms. Then has KERS that stores energy to unleash maximum hp and it continues to store and unleash this power multiple times per lap.

No I would not buy a 4 cylinder turbo hybrid AMG because of its' link to their F1 team as I think it is distant. I would drive both vehicles and judge the engines and the rest of the vehicle that I am buying on their own merits.

While an F1 fan I find it difficult to figure a reason to buy from the manufacturer that participates just because they participate as it seems so far away from what they are trying to sell me. While I am sorry to see Honda leave I expect zero differences in the engines they sell to consumers and I still want a Ferrari over a Honda even with Honda seeming to have a far better F1 engine.
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      04-01-2021, 09:37 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I don't think that's quite accurate. It still has a driveshaft connecting the engine to the rear wheels for true AWD. The motors are in the rear, but they transmit power to front as well since everything is connected.



I don't disagree with you there.

Right now, the big question for the next M3/M4 is, will the next 3 Series and 4 Series use CLAR, or will they switch to the Neue Klasse architecture that BMW just announced. If the latter then the setup may be very close to what you describe - only the front wheels connected to the ICE. However, since the next 3 Series would begin very soon (if it hasn't already) for its 2025 SOP, it's not clear whether the timing will enable it to use the brand new platform or not.
Having a driveshaft to the rear wheels doesn't guarantee full time or RWD biased AWD as most modern AWD vehicles including Mercedes CLA and GLA are FWD biased just like a Haldex VW/Audi. BMW is kind of an outlier with their rear wheel biased AWD setup. A front engine rear motor setup to me is more of an economy setup than performance. I just see this as kind of a compromised bridge setup between ICE and EV that isn't going to be overly special or better than ICE or EV. I'm sure it will perform well but it's going to be considerably more complex compared to ICE or EV for minimal gains over each and it's going to sound horrible in the process (listen to an AMG CLA 45 vacuum cleaner exhaust note). When you add in MB's miserable reliability to an overly complex setup, you have a recipe for a forgettable generation of cars. This is just my opinion.
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      04-01-2021, 09:55 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
No I would not buy a 4 cylinder turbo hybrid AMG because of its' link to their F1 team as I think it is distant. I would drive both vehicles and judge the engines and the rest of the vehicle that I am buying on their own merits.
Of course, the entire vehicle matters. The suggestion was that AMG is not catering to the enthusiast. Considered in the modern context, fail to see how AMG isn't the clear leader on enthusiast/motorsport powertrain. Or, how integrating their 7x WCC F1 hybrid tech isn't for the driving enthusiast.

If the F1 link is all marketing and no substance, then all of this goes out the window. But that would be foolish. Doesn't look like that's how they're trending based upon what they've shown us so far.

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      04-01-2021, 10:08 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Of course, the entire vehicle matters. The suggestion was that AMG is not catering to the enthusiast. Considered in the modern context, fail to see how AMG isn't the clear leader on enthusiast/motorsport powertrain. Or, how integrating their 7x WCC F1 hybrid tech isn't for the driving enthusiast.

If the F1 link is all marketing and no substance, then all of this goes out the window. But that would be foolish. Doesn't look like that's how they're trending based upon what they've shown us so far.
I think they are trying to cater to the enthusiast, environmentalist and new regulations in Europe. Just doubt that what they are planning to offer matches what I would like to own. I think I am more likely to buy an EV daily driver and another fun weekend car, have similar overall environmental impact but less hassles that are likely to come with really complex hybrid AMG's and cars more fun to drive when I actually care.

Over the last 10 years they have been the best at F1 so I give them high marks on recent motorsport history, pretty high on enthusiast marks but see little bearing on what this means for me as the buyer going forward.
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      04-01-2021, 10:23 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I think they are trying to cater to the enthusiast, environmentalist and new regulations in Europe.
This is exactly what I was thinking. Europe has become extremely strict with regards to the environment and I'm pretty sure they see the V8 engine as something not compatible with said environment.
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      04-01-2021, 10:39 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
Having a driveshaft to the rear wheels doesn't guarantee full time or RWD biased AWD
Certainly not, no.

Quote:
as most modern AWD vehicles including Mercedes CLA and GLA are FWD biased just like a Haldex VW/Audi.
But this clearly isn't that type of setup. They've specifically engineered this technology for a longitudinal I4 or V8 arrangement. The pictures in the OP leave little need for guesswork.

Quote:
BMW is kind of an outlier with their rear wheel biased AWD setup.
You're conflating two different types of vehicles architectures.

Both BMW and Mercedes have both FWD/AWD and RWD/AWD architectures. The new C Class and the current generation CLS are built on the latter type. These new PHEV AMG variants of those models will be rear biased just like their non-PHEV siblings and just like any other AWD Mercedes built on their rear-drive MRA platform.

Quote:
A front engine rear motor setup to me is more of an economy setup than performance.

...

This is just my opinion.
I think that test drives will reveal that these products behave very similarly to the existing rear-biased AWD performance vehicles on the market, particularly those from Mercedes AMG. There will be downsides (such as added weight) but these are not genetically related to any FWD vehicle. There are reasons to be cautious or skeptical about the new setup, but the fact that the motors happen to be in the rear should not be one of them. In fact, as mentioned in the OP, that helps with the weight distribution.
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      04-01-2021, 11:53 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I think they are trying to cater to the enthusiast, environmentalist and new regulations in Europe. Just doubt that what they are planning to offer matches what I would like to own. I think I am more likely to buy an EV daily driver and another fun weekend car, have similar overall environmental impact but less hassles that are likely to come with really complex hybrid AMG's and cars more fun to drive when I actually care.

Over the last 10 years they have been the best at F1 so I give them high marks on recent motorsport history, pretty high on enthusiast marks but see little bearing on what this means for me as the buyer going forward.
Couldn't agree more with you there David. In my ideal world, my ICE + MT cars would be my fun/weekend cars. My daily driver would either be a Tundra PHEV (if there's anyone I trust in this regards, it's Toyota) or a full blown electric truck like Rivian. If you have the means and the space, I think an electric vehicle is very complimentary to a fun ICE vehicle. Neither can do the other job as well at this moment IMHO.
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      04-01-2021, 01:32 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I think that test drives will reveal that these products behave very similarly to the existing rear-biased AWD performance vehicles on the market, particularly those from Mercedes AMG. There will be downsides (such as added weight) but these are not genetically related to any FWD vehicle. There are reasons to be cautious or skeptical about the new setup, but the fact that the motors happen to be in the rear should not be one of them. In fact, as mentioned in the OP, that helps with the weight distribution.
What's compelling about it though? It will be fast but heavy, soulless, and sound like a $100k vacuum cleaner. IMO the most compelling thing about an AMG was the brutish V8 engine and without that all they have going for them is flashy interior touch screens. I understand that every automaker will end up having to go this route but I fail to see what's exciting about this announcement.
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      04-01-2021, 01:44 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
What's compelling about it though?

...

I fail to see what's exciting about this announcement.
It's not particularly compelling, at least not to me. But, I've also mostly lost interest in high output combustion vehicles at this point, so I'm probably an outlier among horsepower fans.

By far the most interesting part of the announcement from my perspective is that the I6 continues to be left out of the AMG party.
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      04-01-2021, 02:01 PM   #37
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People seem to be focusing too much on the M139 powertrain as its the most controversial. The M177 setup is far more exciting and should be making its way through the lineup in cars like the GT 4-Door as AMG readies their new 73e variants, as well as the W223 S-Class, upcoming SL, next-generation E-Class and GLE, and most likely the GT sports car, although will likely be a little different due to the front-mid engine setup. The electric turbocharger is also an awesome addition to AMG cars as it works seamlessly providing a very NA like feel and characteristics to how the engine builds power and has instantaneous response. Regardless of cylinder count, the amount of F1-inspired technology here is pretty impressive.

The EV platform is also interesting as its the first of the German trio's high-performance divisions to unveil their work and details regarding EV's, as M and RS have not given us much information yet (RS E-Tron GT is not really an RS but more so a Porsche).
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      04-01-2021, 02:14 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
The M177 setup is far more exciting and should be making its way through the lineup in cars...
It certainly raises the bar. Although we have no details yet, BMW's upcoming S68 V8 is thought to be at the heart of their attempt to compete with this new V8 PHEV lineup from AMG. The upcoming XM is believed to be the first recipient. It's unclear when, exactly, that is coming to market, but it should be announced before the end of 2022.

Quote:
The EV platform is also interesting as its the first of the German trio's high-performance divisions to unveil their work and details regarding EV's
Agree - that part was unexpected. It somewhat got upstaged because they don't show any actual products. Although the EQS seems likely to be the first benefactor.
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      04-03-2021, 12:12 PM   #39
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AMG's CEO on a Strategy for the Future
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Originally Posted by Car and Driver
There's a lot going on at Daimler's AMG performance division. This week, they took the veil off the P3 plug-in hybrid platform, designed to work with both the AMG 2.0-liter four and the AMG 4.0-liter V-8. And AMG confirmed that it's working on its own derivative of the upcoming fully electric EQS.

But there's more. AMG CEO Philipp Schiemer took the time for a chat with Car and Driver to talk about the brand's strategy. What became clear is that AMG will continue to offer a wide variety of vehicles and powertrain options.

Speaking of the Formula 1–inspired Project One supercar that was initiated by his predecessor, Tobias Moers, Schiemer talked about the enormous positive effect the car has on the brand. He underscored the direct technology transfer between AMG and Formula 1: the high-performance battery comes from F1, is now used in the Project One, and will migrate to the P3 hybrid powertrain.

But Schiemer also acknowledged the challenges in getting the Project One on the road; they were exacerbated by ever more aggressive regulations that changed significantly over the course of the project. "It is enormously difficult to meet the regulatory requirements, and we want to build cars that are street legal everywhere," he said. He concluded, "It is safe to assume that there will never again be such an extreme project."

Schiemer praised the P3 hybrid powertrain, emphasizing that "the battery never loses boost and it can be stressed for an extended time." In a thinly veiled shot at Tesla, he adds: "It is unthinkable that power would drop after a few acceleration runs." He also promises better economy—"in the vicinity of a 10 to 20 percent improvement."

So will every AMG henceforth feature a plug-in hybrid or fully electric powertrain, as has been reported elsewhere? Schiemer is quick to correct the misconception. "Every AMG will have a form of hybridization, but this will still include 48-volt hybrids without plug-in capability."

For instance, the P3 platform will not be applied to the 3.0-liter straight-six engine. His explanation: "These engines are not pure AMG engines, and our P3 drivetrain is specifically designed for our AMG engines," says Schiemer. The CLA and GLA 45 won't become plug-in hybrids, either, and the same is true of the upcoming SL: "We will offer different powertrains on that car," he says.

The next SL, fully an AMG project like the GT, is designed to be a more balanced car than the GT, with a wide spread of characteristics. Schiemer hints the SL would be a car perfectly suited to lazy cruising but is quick to add: "Don't forget that the roots of the SL are in racing."



Schiemer confirms that the AMG GT roadster will be phased out when the SL is launched, but the GT coupe will continue, just like the four-door GT, which will receive a facelift and the P3 plug-in hybrid drivetrain in combination with the V-8 engine.

Speaking in general terms, the still-fresh CEO, who took over the brand last summer, singled out his task to carry AMG into the electric era and "to speak to a younger and more female customer base besides our heritage customers." But, he hastens to add: "We will not be politically correct."
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      04-03-2021, 02:10 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
The F1 engine is a 1.6L V-6 with pneumatic valves/short stroke to allow it to rev to 15k rpm with poor low end power but then does very well at high rpms. Then has KERS that stores energy to unleash maximum hp and it continues to store and unleash this power multiple times per lap.

No I would not buy a 4 cylinder turbo hybrid AMG because of its' link to their F1 team as I think it is distant. I would drive both vehicles and judge the engines and the rest of the vehicle that I am buying on their own merits.

While an F1 fan I find it difficult to figure a reason to buy from the manufacturer that participates just because they participate as it seems so far away from what they are trying to sell me. While I am sorry to see Honda leave I expect zero differences in the engines they sell to consumers and I still want a Ferrari over a Honda even with Honda seeming to have a far better F1 engine.
very well said!
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      04-03-2021, 03:32 PM   #41
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Garage List
RBR's take on the new powertrain.

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      04-04-2021, 01:08 PM   #42
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i think i'd rather go full EV than have a 4 cylinder hybrid but...

i am impressed with the c63 though. it feels like its a generation ahead of the G80 like the RBR video showed. more advanced powertrain. full EV mode to leave the house in peace. I also like how they have the engine at the front, and battery at the rear. more rearward weight bias will definitely improve handling. And lets not forget MB routinely outclasses BMW in interior quality.

Only knock on the c63 will be the weight. its going to be at least a few hundred pounds more than the already portly G80. And i'm not sure i'd want to own a system this advanced and new out of warranty.
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      04-04-2021, 01:17 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humdizzle View Post
And i'm not sure i'd want to own a system this advanced and new out of warranty.
It's a real fright to own almost ANY recent Mercedes out of warranty, let alone an AMG model. You throw in the complexity of this new hybrid system, and you KNOW every owner's turning in these as soon as their warranty runs out.

There will be so many of these sitting on lots with like 30,000 to 40,000 miles on them, because so few will want to take the plunge on having one without a warranty. And when you get the extended warranties or the aftermarket warranties, it simply drives up the running costs of the car each year.

So, as is the case for all AMGs, the used car prices will be astonishingly low, especially for any of these with above 50,000 miles. And it may take years after they're released before we see any brave owners taking them past 100,000 miles.
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      04-04-2021, 02:06 PM   #44
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And lets not forget MB routinely outclasses BMW in interior quality.
This is so not true. BMW has better interior quality, MB does more LED blink blink.
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