Dead battery makes man locked out of his Te$la unless he pays $26k for a new one...

[Cos270]

I think what frustrates many is that they are having something forced on them (be it better or not - let's leave that out of it for this point). They look around and see others (be they countries or individuals) who are not going to be beholden to the same standards. China, India, Mexico and great swaths of Eastern Europe have no way (nor intention) of adhering to the same rigorous emission standards the rest of the developed world is implementing or soon will; despite the fact that they are some of the largest contributors.

And just recently, there was some data released on how much emissions certain celebrities are responsible for with their frequent private jet usage; we are talking the equivalent of hundreds of people's emissions for daily-driven modern ICE cars attributed to a single person's demand for fast and convenient travel. Yet these are the same people telling everyone else they are the ones that need to sacrifice and change their lifestyle. I lump many people in this forum in the same category that are wealthy enough to own a host of inefficient, high-performance ICE cars and belittle others because they show any hesitance to switching to EVs. When you can afford a couple fun ICE cars that remain parked and are only driven on the track or weekends while you daily an EV, it's easy to look at the future with optimism. For those of us who can only afford one car, it's a tougher pill to swallow.

The companies that make all of these vehicles, while many are starting to move towards more energy efficient and emission-minded manufacturing processes, are of a similar mind - but to add insult to injury, they are the ones that stand to gain from everyone ditching ICE and adopting EVs.

Personal transportation is low hanging fruit because it is the most visible, and can enrich corporations the most. What about tractor trailer semi trucks? Shipping barges? Airplanes? Where is the call to arms for heavy industry to clean up their act? It's nowhere - and that's because the optics are not favorable and those opportunities are not lucrative enough.

My prediction: through GREAT investments and suffering by tax payers and the middle class, we will get close to EV adoption targets. And there will be a near negligible improvement to climate change and emissions. Those who are polluting will continue to do so and the corporations will continue to profit, laughing on their way to the bank. But everyone will be able to say "at least we tried" - which will be worth little in the end.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

In 2012 a Chevy volt cost ~$40,000.

How much did it cost to replace the battery in 2012?

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

In 2022 a replacement EV battery for that same Chevy volt is $30,000. Do you think they put a $30,000 battery in a $10,000 car, or does the battery cost more now than it did before?

Components often cost more to put them in or swap after the car leaves the factory. When the battery is installed in the factory, the car is in pieces, perhaps even as early as only being a frame and on an assembly line, which cuts costs significantly.

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

I dug up an old article from 2012 on this very subject, they concluded the Chevy Volt battery was $12,000 in 2012. in 2022 it's $30,000, or 250% more.


A 2010 National Academy of Sciences report estimated pack costs then at $625 to $850 per kilowatt-hour.

So where does that take us? If we assume that the 2011 Chevrolet Volt's 16-kWh pack cost roughly $750 per kilowatt-hour (or about $12,000), then we can project the two rates of decline.

At 6 percent a year, the same pack in 2020 would cost just $430/kWh, or $6,500 in total. At 8 percent, it would be even cheaper, at $354/kWh or $5,200 altogether.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news...ery-costs-fall

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...id/7935230001/

The battery was out of production and had to be purchased from a 3rd party.

I addressed the issue of legacy parts here:

Originally Posted by jmg

The 90% I quoted was for the cost of manufacturing a new battery based on several articles I read. Like I mentioned in my previous post, that does not mean that's how much it would cost to replace an old battery, which includes ancillary charges for labor and parts etc. Additionally, this is a legacy part. Perhaps the newer batteries are, in fact, cheaper, but this one isn't because it's an older battery?

What we are actually comparing is cost per kw hour to make a new battery, not source a legacy part with older technology, hamstrung by supply and cost to manufacture at older standards.

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Please note, they were predicting this battery would be less than $5000 in 2022 using their 8% figure, which clearly it is not. In 2012 they shared your optimism, and they were wrong.

This article claims the current cost to produce a new EV battery is $128 per kilowatt-hour.

That article you posted predicted for 2020, it's now 2021 and we are at $128/kwh. Additionally, adjusted for inflation, the $750/kwh in 2012 dollars is actually $967/kwh in 2022 dollars. That's an 87% drop in price per kwh.

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

There are other examples, I even referenced one where a customer was quoted more for a Polestar 2 battery than the MSRP of the entire Polestar 2 when new.

Again, it's cheaper on the assembly line than at a mechanic. What is the capacity of the Polestar 2 and how much was the cost to replace the battery per kwh? Did it include labor? Take that kwh and compare it to $967 per kilowatt-hour that we calculated above.



To clarify, I'm no expert in this. I'm just taking what's available and doing the math. I might get the math wrong once and awhile, or I misread/didn't read completely, but I'll own up to it and attempt to fix it. I'm open to accepting that batteries cost more now per kwh than a decade ago, but I simply haven't seen anything yet to indicate that. I spend my time in threads like these because they tend to become echo chambers and people need to know that we don't have to take everything at face value. Even going down this route with conflicting numbers, it proves that the issue is actually more complicated than it appears. So whether I'm being the devil's advocate or truely believe that the EV will save the world, it doesn't matter. It only matters that we not all think the same, and we don't have to.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Cos270

I lump many people in this forum in the same category that are wealthy enough to own a host of inefficient, high-performance ICE cars and belittle others because they show any hesitance to switching to EVs.

I don't think I've ever belittled anyone for such a thing. I already know it's not 100% viable... yet. I just think it has to be one day.

Originally Posted by Cos270

My prediction: through GREAT investments and suffering by tax payers and the middle class, we will get close to EV adoption targets. And there will be a near negligible improvement to climate change and emissions.

Having grown up in the 70's and 80's of Los Angeles smog, emission standards have had a significant impact to local air quality alone. Even if climate change won't be affected, cleaner air is simply better. Couple that with adoption of cleaner sources of power, and I just see an improvement of quality of life overall. Will it be perfect? No, but it will be closer than we are now. In my opinion of course.

[Angelo_GraysonMiniBMW]

I hate to break the news to EV fans as I appreciate them as well. Heck, I love less noise rolling through the neighborhood. However, battery costs will never go down. When is the last time you’ve seen auto manufacturers drop prices. Anyone who thinks ev battery prices will decrease is a fool. You don’t understand the rare earth metals that are used and how expensive they are to strip mine…hence “rare”. Battery prices will only increase. Check this article out with comment from the IEA. Also, how is the electrical grid going to handle this influx of EVs? Good luck!
https://cheddar.com/media/evs-gobble...to-keep-up.amp

[Angelo_GraysonMiniBMW]

Originally Posted by jmg

I don't think I've ever belittled anyone for such a thing. I already know it's not 100% viable... yet. I just think it has to be one day.



Having grown up in the 70's and 80's of Los Angeles smog, emission standards have had a significant impact to local air quality alone. Even if climate change won't be affected, cleaner air is simply better. Couple that with adoption of cleaner sources of power, and I just see an improvement of quality of life overall. Will it be perfect? No, but it will be closer than we are now. In my opinion of course.

Agree but we haven’t given auto manufactures enough time to continue building more fuel efficient vehicles, instead you have politicians forcing car companies to provide a product not everyone wants. Auto companies have been getting better every couple years, imagine what they could do in 10-20yrs if they weren’t forced to focus on EVs. The government should not been in the business of business, they are horrible at it and worse in terms of picking winners and losers

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Angelo1

I hate to break the news to EV fans as I appreciate them as well. Heck, I love less noise rolling through the neighborhood. However, battery costs will never go down. When is the last time you’ve seen auto manufacturers drop prices. Anyone who thinks ev battery prices will decrease is a fool. You don’t understand the rare earth metals that are used and how expensive they are to strip mine…hence “rare”. Battery prices will only increase. Check this article out with comment from the IEA. Also, how is the electrical grid going to handle this influx of EVs? Good luck!
https://cheddar.com/media/evs-gobble...to-keep-up.amp

Rare earth metals aren't rare. It's a historical misnomer. Please do some research before you parrot things. Also, the "rare" earths used in batteries are being mostly phased out. Lithium is the number one issue and the top 3 sources are Chile, Australia, and Argentina. China is 4th.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So, you are really not that concerned about your claim humans are detrimental to the climate. A realist would abandon all ICE ownership immediately and make the sacrifice for the planet and grandchildren; wait for the technology to catch up to your belief system. If not, stop preaching anthropogenic climate change because you, in truth, do not care about it.

I care about my health, do you? I also ate a cheese-burger yesterday. Do you only eat salads and lean meats? Does eating a cheeseburger mean I don't care about my health?

No, of course not. It means I am a flawed human being. Sorry you don't get to force your standards on others and tell them what they do and do not care about based on their actions just because you disagree with them.

[Angelo_GraysonMiniBMW]

Some of you EV evangelist are absolutely in denial of the environmental ramifications from the beginning to end. My Uncle travels all over the World to help setup/audit mining sites. How would you feel, if kids and very poorly paid folks were doing all the nasty work and nearby villages/towns are being polluted from strip mining operations feel. People just don’t want to know and drive around in an ev thinking they are actually making a difference. I bet not a single one of you know who’s dismantling all the end of use batteries to be recycled either. Do some real research, it’s not exactly non-toxic working conditions. EVs are not the answer folks, the answer is protesting countries like China who are building a massive amount of coal plants that far exceeds anywhere in the World and India who literally dumps trash in rivers. I’ve been there, and it’s pretty damn disgusting in many areas. Just and fyi, during the shutdown CO2 actually went up, answer that if IcE is so bad

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Angelo1

Agree but we haven’t given auto manufactures enough time to continue building more fuel efficient vehicles, instead you have politicians forcing car companies to provide a product not everyone wants.

Elected politicians represent the people. People want them and EV sales are going up.

Originally Posted by Angelo1

Auto companies have been getting better every couple years, imagine what they could do in 10-20yrs if they weren’t forced to focus on EVs.

Who is to say that the EV is that logical next step?

Originally Posted by Angelo1

The government should not been in the business of business, they are horrible at it and worse in terms of picking winners and losers

This is a political ideal and I get it. On paper, it sounds good, let the free market thrive. However, oil is also heavily subsidized, and major car manufacturers have been bailed out in the past... if you think government shouldn't be involved, then GM and Chrysler would likely not exist today. The "free market" is free until it collapses, then regulations come in and save it. Then its free for awhile until something happens again. Rinse repeat.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by jmg

Elected politicians represent the people. People want them and EV sales are going up.

This hasn't been true for decades.

Originally Posted by jmg

Having grown up in the 70's and 80's of Los Angeles smog, emission standards have had a significant impact to local air quality alone. Even if climate change won't be affected, cleaner air is simply better. Couple that with adoption of cleaner sources of power, and I just see an improvement of quality of life overall. Will it be perfect? No, but it will be closer than we are now. In my opinion of course.

LA is a pretty isolated example when it comes to air quality in the US. Practically no where else in the states has/had an air quality issue akin to LA's. Is it wrong, to want to improve it? Absolutely not. But should the entire country have to bend over backwards and adopt new tech so one city has better air? And I don't really see air quality being an issue moving forward in the US or most of Europe, either. Again, it's countries like China and India (the ones that aren't going to have EV and emissions mandates) that are really going to be struggling with air quality.

And my earlier comments weren't necessarily aimed at you, you've been pretty polite and cordial.

[mikado463]

my 56 year old Chevy runs like a charm.........

[Angelo_GraysonMiniBMW]

Originally Posted by jmg

Elected politicians represent the people. People want them and EV sales are going up.



Who is to say that the EV is that logical next step?



This is a political ideal and I get it. On paper, it sounds good, let the free market thrive. However, oil is also heavily subsidized, and major car manufacturers have been bailed out in the past... if you think government shouldn't be involved, then GM and Chrysler would likely not exist today. The "free market" is free until it collapses, then regulations come in and save it. Then its free for awhile until something happens again. Rinse repeat.

I was absolutely against the bailout. However, many businesses fail because of government involvement. Labor unions just exacerbate it and are another political arm, not exactly business friendly. Made sense many years ago, unnecessary today.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by jmg

How much did it cost to replace the battery in 2012?

I haven't found one for 2012, but found one for a 2015:

For my 2015 Volt, it would have cost $8,887.14 for a remanufactured high voltage battery, and $1,030.88 labor, plus tax:

Components often cost more to put them in or swap after the car leaves the factory. When the battery is installed in the factory, the car is in pieces, perhaps even as early as only being a frame and on an assembly line, which cuts costs significantly.

It seems the labor/ancilary parts is a little over a grand, let's round up and call it $2000 in todays market.

The battery was out of production and had to be purchased from a 3rd party.

In 8-10 years, will you be replacing your EV battery with New Old Stock?

The 90% I quoted was for the cost of manufacturing a new battery based on several articles I read. Like I mentioned in my previous post, that does not mean that's how much it would cost to replace an old battery, which includes ancillary charges for labor and parts etc. Additionally, this is a legacy part. Perhaps the newer batteries are, in fact, cheaper, but this one isn't because it's an older battery?

In 8-10 years, won't all of todays batteries be older batteries, 8-10 years older? Antiquated parts almost always cost more than when new, it's not a unique problem to just this make or model. I'm not speaking of theory, I'm demonstrating the present truth and history.

I'm starting to wonder why you are are missing my point on this. These cars are designed to become obsolete too quickly. It makes them disposable, and that is subsequently very wasteful. The idea is to save the planet, not kick the can down the road. A 100Kw battery may cost $17K today, $15K in 2 years, but $45K in 10 when when you actually need to replace it because the tech is then antiquated.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Angelo1

Some of you EV evangelist are absolutely in denial of the environmental ramifications from the beginning to end. My Uncle travels all over the World to help setup/audit mining sites. How would you feel, if kids and very poorly paid folks were doing all the nasty work and nearby villages/towns are being polluted from strip mining operations feel. People just don’t want to know and drive around in an ev thinking they are actually making a difference. I bet not a single one of you know who’s dismantling all the end of use batteries to be recycled either. Do some real research, it’s not exactly non-toxic working conditions. EVs are not the answer folks, the answer is protesting countries like China who are building a massive amount of coal plants that far exceeds anywhere in the World and India who literally dumps trash in rivers. I’ve been there, and it’s pretty damn disgusting in many areas. Just and fyi, during the shutdown CO2 actually went up, answer that if IcE is so bad

Yes, we have to mine metals, for lots of stuff, like engine blocks, buildings, batteries, etc.

[Angelo_GraysonMiniBMW]

Originally Posted by RM7

Yes, we have to mine metals, for lots of stuff, like engine blocks, buildings, batteries, etc.

Yep, but it’s between 6x that for Ev batteries and expected to increase up to 30x that for EV batteries in the near future. https://cheddar.com/media/evs-gobble-up-rare-earth-minerals-as-miners-struggle-to-keep-up.amp

[jmg]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

I haven't found one for 2012, but found one for a 2015:

For my 2015 Volt, it would have cost $8,887.14 for a remanufactured high voltage battery, and $1,030.88 labor, plus tax:





It seems the labor is a little over a grand, let's round up and call it $2000 in todays market.

What's the cost per kwh in 2022 dollars?

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

In 8-10 years, will you be replacing your EV battery with New Old Stock?



In 8-10 years, won't all of todays batteries be older batteries? I'm starting to wonder why you are are missing my point on this. These cars are designed to become obsolete too quickly. It makes them disposable, and that is subsequently very wasteful. The idea is to save the planet, not kick the can down the road.

I realize that the cost of older batteries can make older models obsolete or too costly to repair. Like I've said in other posts, I don't think owning an EV long term is attractive right now due to this.

However, that really wasn't my original point:

Originally Posted by jmg

Actually, lithium batteries cost per kWh is down by 90% since 2010 and hopefully more car manufacturers will make it easier to swap out batteries, especially in labor costs. Battery swaps in lieu of charging has already been adopted in China and is spreading. With recycling getting raise in the future, the cost effectiveness of EV batteries will only increase.

In bold, what I was suggesting is that current and future EVs will be designed in such a way that battery swaps will become easier, reducing labor costs to do swaps. They already do this on the fly for motorcycles and tuck tucks in other parts of the world. It also reduces down time for charging, so instead of waiting for your car to charge, you just roll into a station, and they swap your battery for you. So essentially, replacing a 8 year old battery will be as simple as changing your oil.

Essentially, what I think could happen is this: EV batteries get standardized much like the batteries we put in our remote controls. For instance, a EV battery standard could make it possible for a 2023 EV to accept a new battery in 2033, much like a TV remote from 1980 still accepts a AAA battery from 2022 and still take advantage of the technological achievements in said battery (rechargeability etc). Supply for legacy batteries wouldn't be such an issue.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Angelo1

Yep, but it’s between 6x that for Ev batteries and expected to increase up to 30x that for EV batteries in the near future. https://cheddar.com/media/evs-gobble...to-keep-up.amp

Sound similar to our oil situation. At least these minerals have more than one use per unit. You burn oil once, and that's it, it's done. You discharge a battery, you can charge it again. You get multiple uses per unit. You can recycle there minerals, and the technology to do it will get better and better over time.

Can we recycle oil effectively? Honest question, I don't know.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by Angelo1

Yep, but it’s between 6x that for Ev batteries and expected to increase up to 30x that for EV batteries in the near future. https://cheddar.com/media/evs-gobble...to-keep-up.amp

And the answer to prop up the power grid to charge these batteries when the sun isn't shining? More Li-ion batteries, by the metric shit-ton load. For every 100KW EV battery you put in a car, you'll need to add 2x's as much battery capacity into the "green grid" because they can't be fully charged or fully discharged if you want them to last. It's a non-linear demand cycle. So it's more like 30x^2.

[Angelo_GraysonMiniBMW]

Originally Posted by Cos270

I think what frustrates many is that they are having something forced on them (be it better or not - let's leave that out of it for this point). They look around and see others (be they countries or individuals) who are not going to be beholden to the same standards. China, India, Mexico and great swaths of Eastern Europe have no way (nor intention) of adhering to the same rigorous emission standards the rest of the developed world is implementing or soon will; despite the fact that they are some of the largest contributors.

And just recently, there was some data released on how much emissions certain celebrities are responsible for with their frequent private jet usage; we are talking the equivalent of hundreds of people's emissions for daily-driven modern ICE cars attributed to a single person's demand for fast and convenient travel. Yet these are the same people telling everyone else they are the ones that need to sacrifice and change their lifestyle. I lump many people in this forum in the same category that are wealthy enough to own a host of inefficient, high-performance ICE cars and belittle others because they show any hesitance to switching to EVs. When you can afford a couple fun ICE cars that remain parked and are only driven on the track or weekends while you daily an EV, it's easy to look at the future with optimism. For those of us who can only afford one car, it's a tougher pill to swallow.

The companies that make all of these vehicles, while many are starting to move towards more energy efficient and emission-minded manufacturing processes, are of a similar mind - but to add insult to injury, they are the ones that stand to gain from everyone ditching ICE and adopting EVs.

Personal transportation is low hanging fruit because it is the most visible, and can enrich corporations the most. What about tractor trailer semi trucks? Shipping barges? Airplanes? Where is the call to arms for heavy industry to clean up their act? It's nowhere - and that's because the optics are not favorable and those opportunities are not lucrative enough.

My prediction: through GREAT investments and suffering by tax payers and the middle class, we will get close to EV adoption targets. And there will be a near negligible improvement to climate change and emissions. Those who are polluting will continue to do so and the corporations will continue to profit, laughing on their way to the bank. But everyone will be able to say "at least we tried" - which will be worth little in the end.

100% agree but people are natures of habit. They get so committed to an idea that bears no fruit and wonder why years later it failed. This world is toast. We just keep trying more ways to kill for margins and the clueless politicians and corporate elites win laughing all the way to the bank. Evs are a great idea on paper but once you start digging “literally” you will just find another money making scheme. People only see what they want to see and cancel out any noise that isn’t agreeable to them. It’s just as pointless trying to change someone’s mind on social forums like this but hopefully at least one ev evangelist starts to question the motive of this new EV conquest. We all share the same air globally, unfortunately the biggest polluters are not us and those other will continue polluting.

We currently have 240 coal plants and the administration wants to get more closed asap while China currently has 1,110 and continue to build more. They will not phase down in 2030, absolute lie. So, while we make our citizens suffer with high inflation and pushing people into more expensive EVs that most can’t afford unless they take out a 84mo. loan, other countries will just laugh at us. Let’s us not forget how many US jobs will be lost to manufactures converting to EV building. Ford has already announced ev’s to be built in Mexico and laying off jobs here. Well done America well done

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by jmg

What's the cost per kwh in 2022 dollars?

the battery is 16KWh, and costs $30K to replace, so that's abut $1875

I realize that the cost of older batteries can make older models obsolete or too costly to repair. Like I've said in other posts, I don't think owning an EV long term is attractive right now due to this.

Perhaps it's not your point, but it is mine.

I don't want to embrace a disposable solution to achieve a more green status. It's antithetical to me.

In bold, what I was suggesting is that current and future EVs will be designed in such a way that battery swaps will become easier, reducing labor costs to do swaps.

I prefer to look at contemporary truths to predict my future. We as a society suck at future proofing our products. We adopt a disposable mindset, even you embrace this. I see no reason to believe I'll be able to buy a replacement battery for a 2023 Tesla Plaid for $5k in 8 years. perhaps I'm being cynical, but I also base my belief in historical facts, and observation of present truths.

They already do this on the fly for motorcycles and tuck tucks in other parts of the world. It also reduces down time for charging, so instead of waiting for your car to charge, you just roll into a station, and they swap your battery for you. So essentially, replacing a 8 year old battery will be as simple as changing your oil.

This theory was presented 10 years ago, still not preset and viable today. future theory < present truth.

Essentially, what I think could happen is this: EV batteries get standardized much like the batteries we put in our remote controls. For instance, a EV battery standard could make it possible for a 2023 EV to accept a new battery in 2033, much like a TV remote from 1980 still accepts a AAA battery from 2022 and still take advantage of the technological achievements in said battery (rechargeability etc). Supply for legacy batteries wouldn't be such an issue.

That sounds nice, we should push for that too. future theory < present truth.

I want the same future you do, I really mean that very sincerely. I'm just trying to be realistic. We have limitations to work around.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

the battery is 16KWh, and costs $30K to replace, so that's abut $1875


Perhaps it's not your point, but it is mine.

I don't want to embrace a disposable solution to achieve a more green status. It's antithetical to me.


I prefer to look at contemporary truths to predict my future. We as a society suck at future proofing our products. We adopt a disposable mindset, even you embrace this. I see no reason to believe I'll be able to buy a replacement battery for a 2023 Tesla Plaid for $5k in 8 years. perhaps I'm being cynical, but I also base my belief in historical facts, and observation of present truths.




This theory was presented 10 years ago, still not preset and viable today. future theory < present truth.


That sounds nice, we should push for that too. future theory < present truth.

I want the same future you do, I really mean that very sincerely. I'm just trying to be realistic. We have limitations to work around.

Originally Posted by jmg

What's the cost per kwh in 2022 dollars?




I realize that the cost of older batteries can make older models obsolete or too costly to repair. Like I've said in other posts, I don't think owning an EV long term is attractive right now due to this.

However, that really wasn't my original point:

In bold, what I was suggesting is that current and future EVs will be designed in such a way that battery swaps will become easier, reducing labor costs to do swaps. They already do this on the fly for motorcycles and tuck tucks in other parts of the world. It also reduces down time for charging, so instead of waiting for your car to charge, you just roll into a station, and they swap your battery for you. So essentially, replacing a 8 year old battery will be as simple as changing your oil.

Essentially, what I think could happen is this: EV batteries get standardized much like the batteries we put in our remote controls. For instance, a EV battery standard could make it possible for a 2023 EV to accept a new battery in 2033, much like a TV remote from 1980 still accepts a AAA battery from 2022 and still take advantage of the technological achievements in said battery (rechargeability etc). Supply for legacy batteries wouldn't be such an issue.

I really doubt we are ever going to see swappable batteries on a mass scale for long-range EVs. There is no financial motivation (the only kind that matters) for OEMs to design their cars that way. Unless the government requires it, and then nationalizes battery production (which, with the current administration is honestly not off the table).
I actually read not to long ago that several companies are looking to integrate the battery back into the chassis of the vehicle, so you have a fully-integrated, load-bearing structure with fewer components. If that becomes the new norm, then if you need a new battery, you literally have no choice but to buy a new car haha.

[Angelo_GraysonMiniBMW]

Originally Posted by jmg

Sound similar to our oil situation. At least these minerals have more than one use per unit. You burn oil once, and that's it, it's done. You discharge a battery, you can charge it again. You get multiple uses per unit. You can recycle there minerals, and the technology to do it will get better and better over time.

Can we recycle oil effectively? Honest question, I don't know.

Yes actually, thank you for asking. There are many practical uses for used motor oil. A primary use is to re-refine it into a base stock for lubricating oil. This process is very similar to the refining of crude oil. The result is that the re-refined oil is of as high a quality as a virgin oil product.

A secondary use of the used oil is to burn it for energy. Large industrial boilers can efficiently burn the used oil with minimum pollution. As a result, some used oil is sent to power plants or cement kilns to be burned as fuel. On a lesser scale, small quantities of used oil are burned in specially designed heaters to provide space heating for small businesses.