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      04-22-2023, 11:09 AM   #1915
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I'd bet those same Costco people when road tripping are not going to stop at a Costco and wait 20 minutes to fill up. I've never been to a Costco, so I don't understand the mentality of it, but could it be a couple and one gets a head start on shopping while the other waits in line to get gas for $3 since he is already there? That's how I'd play it.
No. But I bet they will stop for 20 minutes to eat or pee or just stretch their legs. When I go to NC in the Cayenne and the model 3 it takes about the same amount of time... and honestly I like taking the model 3 more... even though that was never my intention for that car. The difference is instead of stopping at a rest area I stop at a charging station which are always right off the highway. Even Bucees has charging stations now which is typically a place I always stop.

Plus why is it always the road tripping that comes up with EVs? Before we had the house in NC we would rarely drive more than 2-3 hours from the house, much less out of the state or across the country.

There's a difference between bashing government EV policies, questioning how we would charge all these EV if people switched etc to just bashing EVs for made up stuff. It's like bashing a 911 because what if you need to haul wood from Home Depot every week.... don't buy a 911.... buy a truck.
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      04-22-2023, 12:09 PM   #1916
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Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
No. But I bet they will stop for 20 minutes to eat or pee or just stretch their legs. When I go to NC in the Cayenne and the model 3 it takes about the same amount of time... and honestly I like taking the model 3 more... even though that was never my intention for that car. The difference is instead of stopping at a rest area I stop at a charging station which are always right off the highway. Even Bucees has charging stations now which is typically a place I always stop.

Plus why is it always the road tripping that comes up with EVs? Before we had the house in NC we would rarely drive more than 2-3 hours from the house, much less out of the state or across the country.

There's a difference between bashing government EV policies, questioning how we would charge all these EV if people switched etc to just bashing EVs for made up stuff. It's like bashing a 911 because what if you need to haul wood from Home Depot every week.... don't buy a 911.... buy a truck.
The U.S Government is not forcing any of its citizens to buy a truck. The Government IS forcing its citizens to buy an EV.

A lot of people road trip long distances because they can't afford to fly their family to a destination; they have to drive. Some people, like me, road trip without any detailed planning but have a direction they are headed but no planned path to get there.

I'm not bashing EV for made up stuff, but rather pointing out actual shortcomings that are impactful when comparing EV to ICE. ICE vehicles do not lose 25% - 30% range in the wintertime. ICE vehicles do not slow down charging rates in the winter because of battery temperature requirements. Most vehicle owners can't charge overnight at home. The 2nd tier ownership experience doesn't currently fit the used car market experience. And mostly, people are used to refueling to 100% range in 5 minutes*. That will most likely change as the children now in elementary school are being taught that every time they fart it kills the planet just a little bit more. Those kids, if they even ever drive, will be happy sitting motionless for a half-hour or more to recharge to 80%.

ICE currently fits everyone's transportation profile, EV does not. I think most of us on this thread who have a different perspective of EV have no issue with EV as a transportation choice, but rather the situation where EV is being forced upon society. I'll speak for some of us who are just advocating that the free market should drive the adoption of EV. It is unrefutably clear that the Government is forcing the creation of the EV market. The most recent examples are the $5B Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill, and just this past week, the EPA's new proposed emissions regulations.

* That will most likely change as the children now in elementary school are being taught that every time they fart it kills the planet just a little bit more. Those kids, if they even ever drive, will be happy sitting motionless for a half-hour or more to recharge to 80%.
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      04-22-2023, 12:29 PM   #1917
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The government regulates most things in life that when compared to their prior state represented some cost or inconvenience, but overall was meant to have a positive impact on society. At one point you did not need to get a drivers license, buy insurance, have seat belts, obey speed limits, have catalytic converters, and so on and so on. Every one of these resulted in some inconvenience or cost. However, every one of these things had a net positive effect on society. The same logic applies to the government starting to push electric cars. An overwhelming majority of the scientists agree on climate change and the the primary contributors to the acceleration of climate change and the damage this will do to the world. So something needs to be done to slow/reverse this and reducing the use of fossil fuels is at the top of this list. Yes in the initial phases of this transition it may take longer to recharge batteries and may pose additional inconveniences, but over time it will improve. Pound for pound batteries will be able to store considerably more energy than they do today. They will get lighter, cheaper and more efficient. One day we may be driving cars that can travel 1000 miles or more on a single charge and be even more convenient than filling up on gasoline. Cars will have far fewer parts and become far more reliable and maybe even cheaper to purchase and there will be charging stations in every parking lot. You can be an early adopter and buy an electric car now or wait a decade and buy one when much of these developments are realized. No one is forcing you to buy an electric car today.
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      04-22-2023, 12:31 PM   #1918
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I'd bet those same Costco people when road tripping are not going to stop at a Costco and wait 20 minutes to fill up. I've never been to a Costco, so I don't understand the mentality of it, but could it be a couple and one gets a head start on shopping while the other waits in line to get gas for $3 since he is already there? That's how I'd play it.
Kirkland Nation joining the chat! It's just one data point, but I 100% plan road trips around Costco fill ups. Last spring we went to Seattle from SoCal, and started with a full tank from San Bernardino. Then Costco at Santa Maria, Santa Cruz, Santa Rosa, and Eureka, CA. A random fill up in Grant's Pass, then back to Costco in Vancouver, WA, Issaquah, Bend, Reno, random something in Bishop, then home.

2500 miles at 19mpg in our GL450 boat. Probably saved $50, so it bought us dinner for one night! I don't recall lines at any of them, at least not long ones. Fam goes into the store for toilets, sometimes we'll get pizza or smoothies. No downside! Anyway long/short is that it's not that hard to figure out a route based on where you want to fill up, and I think fast chargers at Costcos will be a thing in the near future! Costco members only, discounted rates... would work great for us traveling in an EV.

But again, just one data point. I can't be that much of a special unique person though...

Pics to prove it happened: https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjzGUYK
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      04-22-2023, 01:44 PM   #1919
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I think it is just a matter of time as technology advances, as investment is dropping off in ICE technology as little incremental gains are being made, but investment money from the manufacturers is now being diverted to BEV development instead.

The McMurtry also took the record at Goodwood this year, too, beating the previous F1 car record held by the MP4/13 by two and a half seconds, yet it is actually road legal in the UK.

It is expensive, but a technology demonstrator in many ways of what is possible.

I like my ICEs but appreciate there is significant change happening, I think the tipping point will be reached that the European manufacturers (at least) just wonít produce them in volume anymore (likely by about 2030 with phase out in 2035 to meet current EU requirements). Norway reached that point in terms of sales about 2 years ago, ICEs account for a tiny fraction of sales there now: https://www.electromaps.com/en/blog/...t-quarter-2023

Anyway, to pull this slightly back on to topic, Iím sure the ď2030 H87Ē BEV will outperform the G87 in pretty well every area, cíest la vie!
The Goodwood record, again speaks to my point of being a one-trick pony in high discharge rates for extremely limited periods of time.

We're not going to get to a point where an electric car can do 10 laps for another 20yrs.
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      04-22-2023, 01:52 PM   #1920
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Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
I don’t know. Do you really think they won’t improve upon that? Because if they don’t, they’re screwed. There won’t be a 2035. There won’t be at 2085. If they can’t improve charge speed, electric vehicles will stay nothing more than neighborhood conversation pieces that self proclaimed greenies brag about at weekend tofu barbecues.
We are near the limit for charging speeds for current battery tech. The next big leap in charging speeds will be with solid state batteries. We are at least a decade away from those being used mainstream. Even then they will first be introduced in upper tier vehicles, $100k and up. Before trickling down to less expensive vehicles.
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Originally Posted by akin67 View Post
One day we may be driving cars that can travel 1000 miles or more on a single charge and be even more convenient than filling up on gasoline.
The ultimate goal really is to have lighter battery packs, that charge faster. Not to have 1000mile range EV's. The days of EV's with 100+kwh packs weighing 1500lbs will be in the past...eventually. When you start doubling or tripling the energy density of the cells, manufacturers can get back to building lighter vehicles.

Last edited by M3WC; 04-22-2023 at 02:25 PM..
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      04-22-2023, 02:00 PM   #1921
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Until an EV can win overall at 24hr of Le Mans, we are still living in the dark ages of EV's.
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      04-22-2023, 02:08 PM   #1922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StradaRedlands View Post
It's just one data point, but I 100% plan road trips around Costco fill ups. Last spring we went to Seattle from SoCal, and started with a full tank from San Bernardino. Then Costco at Santa Maria, Santa Cruz, Santa Rosa, and Eureka, CA. A random fill up in Grant's Pass, then back to Costco in Vancouver, WA, Issaquah, Bend, Reno, random something in Bishop, then home.

2500 miles at 19mpg in our GL450 boat.

No downside! Anyway long/short is that it's not that hard to figure out a route based on where you want to fill up
I did the same on a 3,818-mile trip from Cincinnati to SD, MT, WY, and CO and then back home last fall. The car got 30.6 mpg. Shell stations were my target, and that made planning a couple of parts of the route fun.
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      04-22-2023, 02:11 PM   #1923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zero21 View Post
The Goodwood record, again speaks to my point of being a one-trick pony in high discharge rates for extremely limited periods of time.

We're not going to get to a point where an electric car can do 10 laps for another 20yrs.
Two 20 mins sessions or about 23 laps of a typical 3.5km / 2.2 mile circuit are not a problem now in a Porsche Taycan on a single charge plus distance to and from the fast charger about 15km away from the track. Our track day club has a member with one who has taken it out a couple of times. Brakes are punished hard, but seem to hold up.

The next gen Porsche 718 is due to arrive as a 2025 EV-only model.

Last edited by aerobod; 04-22-2023 at 02:26 PM..
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      04-22-2023, 03:00 PM   #1924
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Originally Posted by akin67 View Post
The government regulates most things in life that when compared to their prior state represented some cost or inconvenience, but overall was meant to have a positive impact on society. At one point you did not need to get a drivers license, buy insurance, have seat belts, obey speed limits, have catalytic converters, and so on and so on. Every one of these resulted in some inconvenience or cost. However, every one of these things had a net positive effect on society. The same logic applies to the government starting to push electric cars. An overwhelming majority of the scientists agree on climate change and the the primary contributors to the acceleration of climate change and the damage this will do to the world. So something needs to be done to slow/reverse this and reducing the use of fossil fuels is at the top of this list. Yes in the initial phases of this transition it may take longer to recharge batteries and may pose additional inconveniences, but over time it will improve. Pound for pound batteries will be able to store considerably more energy than they do today. They will get lighter, cheaper and more efficient. One day we may be driving cars that can travel 1000 miles or more on a single charge and be even more convenient than filling up on gasoline. Cars will have far fewer parts and become far more reliable and maybe even cheaper to purchase and there will be charging stations in every parking lot. You can be an early adopter and buy an electric car now or wait a decade and buy one when much of these developments are realized. No one is forcing you to buy an electric car today.
Was this written by ChatGPT?
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      04-22-2023, 03:41 PM   #1925
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I don’t know. Do you really think they won’t improve upon that? Because if they don’t, they’re screwed. There won’t be a 2035. There won’t be at 2085. If they can’t improve charge speed, electric vehicles will stay nothing more than neighborhood conversation pieces that self proclaimed greenies brag about at weekend tofu barbecues.

this is so ignorant, its laughable.....

yet somehow they are the fast selling car in america though


Ive had my Tesla for almost three months now.....I've never even had to use a charger station It fills up while I'm asleep magically in the garage
no need to waste 5 minutes(15 minutes at Costco) and $75-100 at gas stations on a weekly basis anymore

You act like people are driving over 300 miles on a daily basis
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      04-22-2023, 03:44 PM   #1926
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this is so ignorant, its laughable.....

yet somehow they are the fast selling car in america though


Ive had my Tesla for almost three months now.....I've never even had to use a charger station It fills up while I'm asleep magically in the garage
no need to waste 5 minutes and $75-100 at gas stations on a weekly basis anymore

You act like people are driving over 300 miles on a daily basis
Ignorant? Perhaps you should look that word up young man. I would say your statement is multitudes more ignorant unless you claiming that every Tesla/EV owner in the USA has the same driving and charging habits/routines as you? Is that your claim?
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      04-22-2023, 03:49 PM   #1927
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
The U.S Government is not forcing any of its citizens to buy a truck. The Government IS forcing its citizens to buy an EV.

.

where????


OPEC is doing a fine job themselves, with the oil and gas prices these days, of forcing people to buy EV's
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      04-22-2023, 03:54 PM   #1928
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Ignorant? Perhaps you should look that word up young man. I would say your statement is multitudes more ignorant unless you claiming that every Tesla/EV owner in the USA has the same driving and charging habits/routines as you? Is that your claim?
yeah, MOST of us do... you take the outlier example of someone on a road trip to make some ridiculous assumption that EV's will die off by 2035 if they cant charge faster than 30 minute ....that is ignorant af considering how fast Tesla is overtaking comapnies like BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, et al in sales these days even with 30 minute charging that is has right now.
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      04-22-2023, 03:58 PM   #1929
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Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX View Post
yeah, MOST of us do... you take the outlier example of someone on a road trip to make some ridiculous assumption that EV's will die off by 2035 if they cant charge faster than 30 minute ....that is ignorant af considering how fast Tesla is overtaking comapnies like BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, et al in sales these days even with 30 minute charging that is has right now.
What you wish and what is real are two different things. Most of your statement is just untrue. First you missed quoted me and second you made industry statements that are not even close to being true as well. Why donít you follow the examples of others on this thread and state facts with actual links to where you got these facts? People might attempt to take you more seriously then. Until then you sound like nothing more than a triggered millennial.
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      04-22-2023, 04:03 PM   #1930
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yeah, MOST of us do...
There are millions of the population that live in dense urban areas with no home garages. So no, many don't or will not have the ability to charge in their garage. Road tripping is a whole different issue.
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      04-22-2023, 04:08 PM   #1931
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Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
What you wish and what is real are two different things. Most of your statement is just untrue. First you missed quoted me and second you made industry statements that are not even close to being true as well. Why donít you follow the examples of others on this thread and state facts with actual links to where you got these facts? People might attempt to take you more seriously then. Until then you sound like nothing more than a triggered millennial.
lol....ok, why do I have to post links for you...ever herd of Google?

BTW, I'm not a millennial , but I'm not a Boomer either


sorry to break your heart, but EV's are here to stay and Tesla will out sell BMW and Mercedes combined this year ... MOST people don't drive 300 miles a day to have to worry much about wasting 30 minutes at a Super Charger station
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      04-22-2023, 04:11 PM   #1932
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Originally Posted by M3WC View Post
There are millions of the population that live in dense urban areas with no home garages. So no, many don't or will not have the ability to charge in their garage. Road tripping is a whole different issue.
and most of those people probably use mass transit anyways

not really worried about gas miliage or charging times....parking is their biggest issues most of the time if they have a vehicle
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      04-22-2023, 04:12 PM   #1933
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sorry to break your heart, but EV's are here to stay and Tesla will out sell BMW and Mercedes combined this year ...
I see what you did there, BGM impersonation.
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      04-22-2023, 04:13 PM   #1934
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and most of those people probably use mass transit anyways

not really worried about gas miliage or charging times....parking is their biggest issues most of the time if they have a vehicle
What do you think is the ratio of urban dwellers to vehicle ownership right now?

There are going to be millions that don't have access to home charging. No way around it. Whether they live in apartments, condos, or homes with only street parking. Not all cities have adequate mass transit. Many urban dwellers own vehicles now and would most likely want to continue to have the freedom of vehicle ownership. A functioning DCFC network for the masses will 100% be a necessity.

The dream of everyone charging their EVs at night in their garage is not reality. It will be a convenience for many, but certainly not all.

Last edited by M3WC; 04-22-2023 at 04:21 PM..
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      04-22-2023, 04:20 PM   #1935
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Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX View Post
lol....ok, why do I have to post links for you...ever herd of Google?

BTW, I'm not a millennial , but I'm not a Boomer either


sorry to break your heart, but EV's are here to stay and Tesla will out sell BMW and Mercedes combined this year ... MOST people don't drive 300 miles a day to have to worry much about wasting 30 minutes at a Super Charger station
The post that you originally replied to a couple of posts back, I was merely stating my opinion. So have many others here. If youíre convinced that the same people in Washington that told us we had a smooth pull out from Afghanistan is also going to make sure we are full EV by 2035 then more power to you pal. Iím telling you I know Americans. Thereís no way in hell theyíre putting up with 45 minute charging times and the long ass lines. You and our token thread troll have yet to address how the country is going to address these massively important obstacles to your dream of a green society. Washington could say the goal by 2035 is to have all flying cars if they wanted to. That doesnít mean itís going to happen.

Now letís address your complete false statement that I hate electric vehicles. What a bunch of utter nonsense. I love competition. What I donít love is favoritism by government to a particular technology or brand in any sector of capitalism. Itís not healthy and unfair. Let electric vehicles stand on their own and fight for business without government, tax breaks or subsidies.

Lastly, I still say youíre delusional as to the driving habits of other citizens. Why donít you look up how many people actually own a house and therefore have access to nightly charging.
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      04-22-2023, 04:32 PM   #1936
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Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
The post that you originally replied to a couple of posts back, I was merely stating my opinion. So have many others here. If you’re convinced that the same people in Washington that told us we had a smooth pull out from Afghanistan is also going to make sure we are full EV by 2035 then more power to you pal. I’m telling you I know Americans. There’s no way in hell they’re putting up with 45 minute charging times and the long ass lines. You and our token thread troll have yet to address how the country is going to address these massively important obstacles to your dream of a green society. Washington could say the goal by 2035 is to have all flying cars if they wanted to. That doesn’t mean it’s going to happen.

Now let’s address your complete false statement that I hate electric vehicles. What a bunch of utter nonsense. I love competition. What I don’t love is favoritism by government to a particular technology or brand in any sector of capitalism. It’s not healthy and unfair. Let electric vehicles stand on their own and fight for business without government, tax breaks or subsidies.

Lastly, I still say you’re delusional as to the driving habits of other citizens. Why don’t you look up how many people ac
tually own a house and therefore have access to nightly charging.
this is more bullish*t hyperbolism

you really think all ICE cars are going to be banned somehow by 2035, that is NOT what any state or country has stated AT ALL... What some have said is that all NEW cars will be EV by 2035, heck even huge automakers have stated the same...used ICE cars will still be readily available for decades to come....quit trying to make more out of this than what it IS
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