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      04-21-2023, 02:00 PM   #1893
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Originally Posted by EXE46 View Post
False! Tesla sold 181k cars last quarter here in the USA, obviously people out there are happy with their EV's. There are people who are as excited about their EV's as we are about ICE.

We as enthusiasts are a tiny almost insignificant buying demographic. Who oftentimes falsely believe we dictate overall car sales in the industry.
181k total vehicle sales is a drop in the bucket for any car company not named Mitsubishi. Not to mention Tesla’s are garbage, but that’s an entirely different conversation
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      04-21-2023, 02:11 PM   #1894
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181k total vehicle sales is a drop in the bucket for any car company not named Mitsubishi. Not to mention Teslaís are garbage, but thatís an entirely different conversation
Reading isn't your strong suit sir/madame. The figure given is for Q1. Last year BMW sold just over 330K total cars in the USA. So clearly Tesla's Q1 figures aren't insignificant. Furthermore, even BMW has seen huge demand for their new EV's. Anyhow, carryon with your conspiracy theory.
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      04-21-2023, 03:29 PM   #1895
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Originally Posted by EXE46 View Post
Reading isn't your strong suit sir/madame. The figure given is for Q1. Last year BMW sold just over 330K total cars in the USA. So clearly Tesla's Q1 figures aren't insignificant. Furthermore, even BMW has seen huge demand for their new EV's. Anyhow, carryon with your conspiracy theory.
Huge demand? They sold about 2000 units this quarter compared to 3x that in just the 4 series coupe alone.

But yeah, 5% sales with government incentives to push electric sales, in addition to telsa slashing prices x3 times this year, but sure.
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      04-21-2023, 04:39 PM   #1896
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Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
Huge demand? They sold about 2000 units this quarter compared to 3x that in just the 4 series coupe alone.

But yeah, 5% sales with government incentives to push electric sales, in addition to telsa slashing prices x3 times this year, but sure.
The US may be lagging in BEV sales overall, but in Q1 2023 BMW Group sold 64,647 worldwide for 11% of their vehicle sales. If PHEVs are included, then plugin electric vehicles accounted for 19% of their sales, i.e. 22% more volume than their total vehicle sales in the US in the same period.
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      04-21-2023, 04:43 PM   #1897
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      04-21-2023, 04:45 PM   #1898
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Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
Iím on my 5th Electric

And yes I am definitely still an enthusiast

The low cost to operate it supplements the cost of owning my ///M car
Thereís a high moral cost to owning an EV. Hope no one is deluding themselves about that.
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      04-21-2023, 05:32 PM   #1899
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Originally Posted by M3WC View Post
Next major update is to Model 3. Project Highland update is due around Sept timeframe. New front/rear bumpers, headlights, mirrors, cameras/electronics, interior refresh, rumored new seats.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Tesla is so like Toyota. Hilarious. The Model 3 came to market in 2017. Some new bumpers covers, headlights, etc. Ohhhh wow! They'll essentially drag the Model 3 through to 2027 without a full redesign.
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      04-21-2023, 08:07 PM   #1900
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This is exactly what I'm talking about. Tesla is so like Toyota. Hilarious. The Model 3 came to market in 2017. Some new bumpers covers, headlights, etc. Ohhhh wow! They'll essentially drag the Model 3 through to 2027 without a full redesign.
What won't change is charge speed by any material amount.
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      04-21-2023, 08:12 PM   #1901
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Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
The US may be lagging in BEV sales overall, but in Q1 2023 BMW Group sold 64,647 worldwide for 11% of their vehicle sales. If PHEVs are included, then plugin electric vehicles accounted for 19% of their sales, i.e. 22% more volume than their total vehicle sales in the US in the same period.
How much of that was influenced by government as opposed to what people wanted to buy? In the US, the sales rightfully lagged because the electric variants are pretty crap, like all electric cars.
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      04-21-2023, 09:33 PM   #1902
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Originally Posted by DB_Cooper View Post
Thereís a high moral cost to owning an EV. Hope no one is deluding themselves about that.
Maybe text your psychologist

I am good

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      04-22-2023, 01:50 AM   #1903
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Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
How much of that was influenced by government as opposed to what people wanted to buy? In the US, the sales rightfully lagged because the electric variants are pretty crap, like all electric cars.
Here is a “crap” electric car for you:


It is unlikely events such as Pike’s Peak will have an ICE record holder again over BEV competitors.

I remember when Blackberry and many of it’s users mocked the iPhone.
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      04-22-2023, 04:02 AM   #1904
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What won't change is charge speed by any material amount.
I don’t know. Do you really think they won’t improve upon that? Because if they don’t, they’re screwed. There won’t be a 2035. There won’t be at 2085. If they can’t improve charge speed, electric vehicles will stay nothing more than neighborhood conversation pieces that self proclaimed greenies brag about at weekend tofu barbecues.
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      04-22-2023, 06:39 AM   #1905
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
Here is a ďcrapĒ electric car for you:


It is unlikely events such as Pikeís Peak will have an ICE record holder again over BEV competitors.

I remember when Blackberry and many of itís users mocked the iPhone.
Pike's Peak is the only place an EV can outperform an ICE setup - I think we both know that. As such, it's kind of a crappy example to use with a 1 seater car that costs a million or more.
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      04-22-2023, 08:13 AM   #1906
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Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
Maybe text your psychologist

I am good

Why would I text a psychologist ? Iím not buying any EVs lol. Poor effort at a joke.

And facts is facts buddy.

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      04-22-2023, 08:41 AM   #1907
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Originally Posted by DB_Cooper View Post
Why would I text a psychologist ? I’m not buying any EVs lol. Poor effort at a joke.

And facts is facts buddy.

Not his first attempt either.
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      04-22-2023, 09:22 AM   #1908
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Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
I don’t know. Do you really think they won’t improve upon that? Because if they don’t, they’re screwed. There won’t be a 2035. There won’t be at 2085. If they can’t improve charge speed, electric vehicles will stay nothing more than neighborhood conversation pieces that self proclaimed greenies brag about at weekend tofu barbecues.
Let's leave Tesla out of it for a moment, because Tesla can't fill all the EV needs of the world and be the only charging network. That would be a monopoly, which under current law is illegal in the US; but who the hell knows, one Executive Order can change all that. But Elon bought Twitter, so... LOL.

Here is how I see it. In 2023 there is 400V and 800V EV architecture and public Level 2 and Level 3 fast charging. The internet says there are currently around 140,000 public chargers (the White House says 160,000). Even with 300-mile range (max on an ideal day) and 80% recovery (240 miles) in 30 minutes, EV acceptance is still going to be low since most of the driving public (above the age of 35 years old) wants an ICE equivalent recharge speed of 5 minutes. And any type of road trip is tied to routes where public chargers are.

Several articles on the subject of charging infrastructure tied to future EV expected take rate say charger installations have to increase 4-fold from 2023 to 2025 to get to 700,000 chargers (for a 40% EV fleet by 2025). If there is a magic new battery design that cuts in half the charge time and adds 50% range does the current charging network support that architecture without recapitalizing the network. I've seen some chargers that are somewhat future-proofed to deliver current at higher rates than current vehicle hardware supports, but there still is a limit based on physics. Considering Manufacturers are still competing on range and charging performance, there is no real standardization within the charger capability envelope of existing machine design. If EV does get to a 5-minute recharge architecture (vehicle hardware and charging network), can the average person afford it?

Engineers have been at EV tech for 30 years now. We've sort of plateaued at 300 miles and 30 - 45 minutes recharge rate to recover 80% range. Then throw in winter climates.

I still say the majority of the US market for the next 30 years or so wants 100% range recovery in 5 minutes and the ability to safely recharge almost anywhere in the US. It's a tough nut to crack.

The current ICE architecture and recharging network wasn't broken. As Alfisti professes, if there is a problem then fix it with PHEV. I say go further and take PHEV to a series hybrid design (like the Volt) and get on with life.
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      04-22-2023, 09:31 AM   #1909
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Let's leave Tesla out of it for a moment, because Tesla can't fill all the EV needs of the world and be the only charging network. That would be a monopoly, which under current law is illegal in the US; but who the hell knows, one Executive Order can change all that. But Elon bought Twitter, so... LOL.

Here is how I see it. In 2023 there is 400V and 800V EV architecture and public Level 2 and Level 3 fast charging. The internet says there are currently around 140,000 public chargers (the White House says 160,000). Even with 300-mile range (max on an ideal day) and 80% recovery (240 miles) in 30 minutes, EV acceptance is still going to be low since most of the driving public (above the age of 35 years old) wants an ICE equivalent recharge speed of 5 minutes. And any type of road trip is tied to routes where public chargers are.

Several articles on the subject of charging infrastructure tied to future EV expected take rate say charger installations have to increase 4-fold from 2023 to 2025 to get to 700,000 chargers (for a 40% EV fleet by 2025). If there is a magic new battery design that cuts in half the charge time and adds 50% range does the current charging network support that architecture without recapitalizing the network. I've seen some chargers that are somewhat future-proofed to deliver current at higher rates than current vehicle hardware supports, but there still is a limit based on physics. Considering Manufacturers are still competing on range and charging performance, there is no real standardization within the charger capability envelope of existing machine design. If EV does get to a 5-minute recharge architecture (vehicle hardware and charging network), can the average person afford it?

Engineers have been at EV tech for 30 years now. We've sort of plateaued at 300 miles and 30 - 45 minutes recharge rate to recover 80% range. Then throw in winter climates.

I still say the majority of the US market for the next 30 years or so wants 100% range recovery in 5 minutes and the ability to safely recharge almost anywhere in the US. It's a tough nut to crack.

The current ICE architecture and recharging network wasn't broken. As Alfisti professes, if there is a problem then fix it with PHEV. I say go further and take PHEV to a series hybrid design (like the Volt) and get on with life.
The city of Edmonton is now limiting the number of permits allowed to upgrade to 200 Amp services due to the impact on delivery. Folks want home charging stations but here is another example of the limits that are the reality. Mandating EV's is putting the cart before the horse, not really a surprise when it comes to government though.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/travel/new...am/ar-AA1a9bns
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      04-22-2023, 10:05 AM   #1910
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Let's leave Tesla out of it for a moment, because Tesla can't fill all the EV needs of the world and be the only charging network. That would be a monopoly, which under current law is illegal in the US; but who the hell knows, one Executive Order can change all that. But Elon bought Twitter, so... LOL.

Here is how I see it. In 2023 there is 400V and 800V EV architecture and public Level 2 and Level 3 fast charging. The internet says there are currently around 140,000 public chargers (the White House says 160,000). Even with 300-mile range (max on an ideal day) and 80% recovery (240 miles) in 30 minutes, EV acceptance is still going to be low since most of the driving public (above the age of 35 years old) wants an ICE equivalent recharge speed of 5 minutes. And any type of road trip is tied to routes where public chargers are.

Several articles on the subject of charging infrastructure tied to future EV expected take rate say charger installations have to increase 4-fold from 2023 to 2025 to get to 700,000 chargers (for a 40% EV fleet by 2025). If there is a magic new battery design that cuts in half the charge time and adds 50% range does the current charging network support that architecture without recapitalizing the network. I've seen some chargers that are somewhat future-proofed to deliver current at higher rates than current vehicle hardware supports, but there still is a limit based on physics. Considering Manufacturers are still competing on range and charging performance, there is no real standardization within the charger capability envelope of existing machine design. If EV does get to a 5-minute recharge architecture (vehicle hardware and charging network), can the average person afford it?

Engineers have been at EV tech for 30 years now. We've sort of plateaued at 300 miles and 30 - 45 minutes recharge rate to recover 80% range. Then throw in winter climates.

I still say the majority of the US market for the next 30 years or so wants 100% range recovery in 5 minutes and the ability to safely recharge almost anywhere in the US. It's a tough nut to crack.

The current ICE architecture and recharging network wasn't broken. As Alfisti professes, if there is a problem then fix it with PHEV. I say go further and take PHEV to a series hybrid design (like the Volt) and get on with life.
All good points but then I look at the Costco gas line and see a ton of people waiting on line for 15 minutes to save $3 on a fill up. These are the very same people who drop $300 - $400 every time they go to Costco and who are driving luxury brands and expensive trucks. Are people likely to spend 20 - 30 minutes at a charging station to save $30 on a fill up? I am guessing yes. And when you factor in the serene driving experience and stellar acceleration you get from electric cars, I am willing to bet electric cars will proliferate very quickly. Plus there is the convenience of being able to charge their car at home and avoid charging stations most of the time. If you follow advances in battery technology you will also see that we are getting closer to the realization of solid state batteries that can compress 2- 4 times the energy in a same size package as today's batteries. My biggest worry is that we are not seeing the necessary investment in the grid. If our demand for electricity doubles, will the installed infrastructure be able to handle it?
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      04-22-2023, 10:08 AM   #1911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zero21 View Post
Pike's Peak is the only place an EV can outperform an ICE setup - I think we both know that. As such, it's kind of a crappy example to use with a 1 seater car that costs a million or more.
I think it is just a matter of time as technology advances, as investment is dropping off in ICE technology as little incremental gains are being made, but investment money from the manufacturers is now being diverted to BEV development instead.

The McMurtry also took the record at Goodwood this year, too, beating the previous F1 car record held by the MP4/13 by two and a half seconds, yet it is actually road legal in the UK.

It is expensive, but a technology demonstrator in many ways of what is possible.

I like my ICEs but appreciate there is significant change happening, I think the tipping point will be reached that the European manufacturers (at least) just won’t produce them in volume anymore (likely by about 2030 with phase out in 2035 to meet current EU requirements). Norway reached that point in terms of sales about 2 years ago, ICEs account for a tiny fraction of sales there now: https://www.electromaps.com/en/blog/...t-quarter-2023

Anyway, to pull this slightly back on to topic, I’m sure the “2030 H87” BEV will outperform the G87 in pretty well every area, c’est la vie!

Last edited by aerobod; 04-22-2023 at 10:19 AM..
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      04-22-2023, 10:22 AM   #1912
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All good points but then I look at the Costco gas line and see a ton of people waiting on line for 15 minutes to save $3 on a fill up. These are the very same people who drop $300 - $400 every time they go to Costco and who are driving luxury brands and expensive trucks. Are people likely to spend 20 - 30 minutes at a charging station to save $30 on a fill up? I am guessing yes. And when you factor in the serene driving experience and stellar acceleration you get from electric cars, I am willing to bet electric cars will proliferate very quickly. Plus there is the convenience of being able to charge their car at home and avoid charging stations most of the time. If you follow advances in battery technology you will also see that we are getting closer to the realization of solid state batteries that can compress 2- 4 times the energy in a same size package as today's batteries. My biggest worry is that we are not seeing the necessary investment in the grid. If our demand for electricity doubles, will the installed infrastructure be able to handle it?
I'd bet those same Costco people when road tripping are not going to stop at a Costco and wait 20 minutes to fill up. I've never been to a Costco, so I don't understand the mentality of it, but could it be a couple and one gets a head start on shopping while the other waits in line to get gas for $3 since he is already there? That's how I'd play it.
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      04-22-2023, 10:31 AM   #1913
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The city of Edmonton is now limiting the number of permits allowed to upgrade to 200 Amp services due to the impact on delivery. Folks want home charging stations but here is another example of the limits that are the reality. Mandating EV's is putting the cart before the horse, not really a surprise when it comes to government though.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/travel/new...am/ar-AA1a9bns
Maybe to keep the ice frozen and the lights on at Rogers Place
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      04-22-2023, 10:51 AM   #1914
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Like always YMMV, I pump at Costco, they are continuously $0.35 cheaper for premium in my area. So let's assume 20 gal. tank = 20x0.35 = $7.00, plus using Costco VISA you get 4% off, so 20x4.00 - 4% = $3.2. So my total savings per fill-up are $10.2, plus I usually go after 8 pm when the gas station is empty.

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All good points but then I look at the Costco gas line and see a ton of people waiting on line for 15 minutes to save $3 on a fill up....
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