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      03-15-2023, 01:57 PM   #1651
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
5G wasn't meant to have mass commercial appeal, it was just sold that way to make $.

It's largest consumer benefit is Mm wave technology that only works in very dense areas and you are very close to the tower. Even then it's supremely unreliable... nevertheless, the dream was sold and a lot of companies made $.

EVs are right now being sold in a similar fashion
Almost no one is on mmWave at any given time, as you mention. I am not sure even the UWB indicators on phones are truthful at all times. When your phone says 5G, especially if you're not in a city, it's Sub-6 LTE, which is fantastic. Gonzo is just a nut who doesn't know what he's talking about.

mmWave is quite useful in large public venues like stadiums if the backhaul can keep up. My office building has mmWave on the roof and the speeds are absurd.
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      03-15-2023, 02:10 PM   #1652
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Almost no one is on mmWave at any given time, as you mention. I am not sure even the UWB indicators on phones are truthful at all times. When your phone says 5G, especially if you're not in a city, it's Sub-6 LTE, which is fantastic. Gonzo is just a nut who doesn't know what he's talking about.

mmWave is quite useful in large public venues like stadiums if the backhaul can keep up. My office building has mmWave on the roof and the speeds are absurd.
SUb 6 5G typically has comparable speeds to 4G LTE... at times its a bit faster but adds very little if anything in way of the experience of the user. Again, no idea what the consumer use case here was for just basic phone internet usage. One cannot do anything the other could not.

MM wave is supremely fast but you have to be very close to a tower and even then it's insanely spotty... again, what is the consumer use case here? Like you mentioned, the only realistic one is in an arena that hasmassive load usage from a lot of people... even in that scenario I have seen it work SO far very poorly and spotty. Case in point, a few airports I have been at, downtown centers and bballa arenas.
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      03-15-2023, 02:31 PM   #1653
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
SUb 6 5G typically has comparable speeds to 4G LTE... at times its a bit faster but adds very little if anything in way of the experience of the user. Again, no idea what the consumer use case here was for just basic phone internet usage. One cannot do anything the other could not.

MM wave is supremely fast but you have to be very close to a tower and even then it's insanely spotty... again, what is the consumer use case here? Like you mentioned, the only realistic one is in an arena that hasmassive load usage from a lot of people... even in that scenario I have seen it work SO far very poorly and spotty. Case in point, a few airports I have been at, downtown centers and bballa arenas.
It works poorly in arenas etc. because of inadequate backhaul 90% of the time. My overall point was blaming 5G for anything is nonsensical because 99% of the time its 5G Sub 6 which is basically 4G as you correctly pointed out.
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      03-15-2023, 02:38 PM   #1654
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It works poorly in arenas etc. because of inadequate backhaul 90% of the time. My overall point was blaming 5G for anything is nonsensical because 99% of the time its 5G Sub 6 which is basically 4G as you correctly pointed out.
Right but that's the exact issue... the marketing on it was incorrect which is the overall point of the posts before this one. At&t went as far as labeling their on the phone network icon as 5G even tho it had nothing to do with 5G.
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      03-15-2023, 03:03 PM   #1655
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Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
I'm on 5G and it's basically crap. Reloading a wifi signal, because it drops often, is so reeeediculous.

My point re charging stations involved how much glub-glub I hear whenever the green church speaks. Good grief people, look at their track records.
I'm all for increasing availability to charge but I Don't Know as an answer for 2500 millions is laughable.

No real plan.
No real data.
No time-line.
No bueno.

Mow Rons.
You could say it's blind leading the blind 'oh it'll be alright, I'm sure they know what they're doing even if there is no plan.I'm confused but others are buying so it must be alright'
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      03-15-2023, 03:29 PM   #1656
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^
I was called a nut by the same fella that called myself, Nicky, mk6 and many others crazy and conspiracy theorists in the not so distant past. I hope I can speak for them with a simple "told you so". It won't do a lick of good but whatever. Can't fix arrogance.
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      03-18-2023, 10:43 AM   #1657
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Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
^
I was called a nut by the same fella that called myself, Nicky, mk6 and many others crazy and conspiracy theorists in the not so distant past. I hope I can speak for them with a simple "told you so". It won't do a lick of good but whatever. Can't fix arrogance.
Suddenly deciding to buy an EV without doing the homework reminds me of the saying 'Fools rush in...'
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      03-18-2023, 12:50 PM   #1658
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I did some EV homework today based on data from an article by Car and Driver that had most of all the EV for sale in the USA listed by MPGe rating. I have to say if you are a homeowner with private charging capability and need/want an inexpensive A-to-B daily commuter, I just don't see how you can pass up on the Chevrolet Bolt EV or the slightly larger Bolt EUV. Assuming you qualify for the US Federal tax credit of $7,500 a Bolt EV or EUV comes in well under $100/per range (in miles), meaning the MSRP - the $7,500 tax credit divided by the range in miles. The Bolt EUV MSRP is $28,795 and with fellow future US Tax payers footing the bill - less $7,500, the Bolt EUV is just $21,295 (chump change). The EPA range is 247 miles. No way would you'd road trip it in the USA, but for most around town use, it's a damned compelling price point. It's no uglier than a Model 3 from my POV and actually looks nearly like a normal car inside and out.

With my current commute of around 170 miles a week, I could charge it once a week over at the garage and easily live with it as a daily.
And I say if it makes sense for you then great. But it making sense for you shouldn't be the grounds for the government forcing EV's on everyone else, many of whom it might not make sense for.

I think this and the other common sense arguments surrounding increased capacity and grid upgrades that constantly get posted here are what the underlying theme among a great many posters on this thread is.
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      03-18-2023, 01:19 PM   #1659
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It really depends on your location, here in New England electricity just went up to $0.45/Kwh (delivery+generation). So let's do a quick math check: Bolt EUV battery is +/-65kWh / 0.95 (charging efficiency) * $0.45 = $30.79 for 247 miles (EPA perfect case full charge). That's equivalent of 23.6 MPG (currently local 87 is $2.94/Gal, so $30.79/2.94$/Gal=10.47 Gal thus, 247 miles/10.47 Gal = 23.6 MPG).

This is not even considering much worst range in cold weather and battery degradation.

So in my case, it's much more logical to get say 2023 Nissan Versa at $15,830 MSRP which gets 32 city / 40 highway for a commuter car.

Plus there is always a chance you can burn down your garage charging Chevy bolt...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I did some EV homework today based on data from an article by Car and Driver that had most of all the EV for sale in the USA listed by MPGe rating. I have to say if you are a homeowner with private charging capability and need/want an inexpensive A-to-B daily commuter, I just don't see how you can pass up on the Chevrolet Bolt EV or the slightly larger Bolt EUV. Assuming you qualify for the US Federal tax credit of $7,500 a Bolt EV or EUV comes in well under $100/per range (in miles), meaning the MSRP - the $7,500 tax credit divided by the range in miles. The Bolt EUV MSRP is $28,795 and with fellow future US Tax payers footing the bill - less $7,500, the Bolt EUV is just $21,295 (chump change). The EPA range is 247 miles. No way would you'd road trip it in the USA, but for most around town use, it's a damned compelling price point. It's no uglier than a Model 3 from my POV and actually looks nearly like a normal car inside and out.

With my current commute of around 170 miles a week, I could charge it once a week over at the garage and easily live with it as a daily.
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      03-18-2023, 01:21 PM   #1660
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Originally Posted by Sedoy View Post
It really depends on your location, here in New England electricity just went up to $0.45/Kwh (delivery+generation). So let's do a quick math check: Bolt EV battery is +/-65kWh / 0.95 (charging efficiency) * $0.45 = $30.79 for 247 miles (EPA perfect case full charge). That's equivalent of 23.6 MPG (currently local 87 is $2.94/gallon=10.47 Gal, 247 miles/10.47 Gal = 23.6 MPG).

This is not even considering much worst range in cold weather and battery degradation.

So in my case, it's much more logical to get say 2023 Nissan Versa at $15,830 MSRP which gets 32 city / 40 highway for commuter car.
My RAM 1500 ecoDiesel got about 30 MPG on our drive to Florida and back, I almost never get less than 25 MPG in my usually driving.
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      03-18-2023, 02:11 PM   #1661
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LOL. Have you ever read a post from me advocating the Feds forcing EV on US citizens? Never. In fact I've made the case numerous times that EV financially make no sense based on the price delta between a comparable ICE (i.e. the battery cost difference). I usually use the Accord vs. the Model 3 and the Accord wins hands down to 100,000 miles total lifecycle cost by about $4,200 last time I did the mathematics; I think it's posted in this thread a few weeks back.

However, with the Bolt the initial price is below $30K now, which changes the economics. That is unless you live in New England...
No, I haven't. I didn't mean to infer you were I was using your post as an example of how different folks have different needs and I was cool with it.
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      03-18-2023, 02:47 PM   #1662
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The RAM did well on the towing trip to Florida I take it?

Running the numbers for the Bolt vs. Versa () in my lovely state of Virginia, the Bolt edges out the Nissan by $1,844 to 100,000 miles. Well, if you don't count for the Halon system needed for the garage...
We weren't towing, but I have to say I love that truck, comfortable (air ride suspension) great cabin and seats and I would be hard pushed to drive long enough to empty the tank in one day.
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      03-18-2023, 04:50 PM   #1663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedoy View Post
It really depends on your location, here in New England electricity just went up to $0.45/Kwh (delivery+generation). So let's do a quick math check: Bolt EUV battery is +/-65kWh / 0.95 (charging efficiency) * $0.45 = $30.79 for 247 miles (EPA perfect case full charge). That's equivalent of 23.6 MPG (currently local 87 is $2.94/Gal, so $30.79/2.94$/Gal=10.47 Gal thus, 247 miles/10.47 Gal = 23.6 MPG).

This is not even considering much worst range in cold weather and battery degradation.

So in my case, it's much more logical to get say 2023 Nissan Versa at $15,830 MSRP which gets 32 city / 40 highway for a commuter car.

Plus there is always a chance you can burn down your garage charging Chevy bolt...

$0.45kwh!!!!!!????? Even super chargers around here charge like $0.25kwh and feel like a scam to me. FPL has been raising its rates recently and pissing everyone off... still I think the highest I pay is $0.09kwh. So at most it costs me $6.75 to fully charge my model 3 long range.

However outside of some rare use cases I can't see how buying most any EV would save you more money than just buying a used economy car.
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      03-18-2023, 05:26 PM   #1664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedoy View Post
It really depends on your location, here in New England electricity just went up to $0.45/Kwh (delivery+generation). So let's do a quick math check: Bolt EUV battery is +/-65kWh / 0.95 (charging efficiency) * $0.45 = $30.79 for 247 miles (EPA perfect case full charge). That's equivalent of 23.6 MPG (currently local 87 is $2.94/Gal, so $30.79/2.94$/Gal=10.47 Gal thus, 247 miles/10.47 Gal = 23.6 MPG).

This is not even considering much worst range in cold weather and battery degradation.

So in my case, it's much more logical to get say 2023 Nissan Versa at $15,830 MSRP which gets 32 city / 40 highway for a commuter car.

Plus there is always a chance you can burn down your garage charging Chevy bolt...
So risky charging them in a garage, especially with living quarters above.
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      03-18-2023, 05:57 PM   #1665
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So risky charging them in a garage, especially with living quarters above.
I wouldn't do it, we live in the country, South Frontenac Volunteer Fire Dept.....motto, we've never lost a foundation.
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      03-18-2023, 06:26 PM   #1666
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Yep, $0.45kWh is the Eversource rate (generation+delivery). Generation can be switched to a cheaper supplier, but I still pay about $150 for electricity delivery charges regardless of generation rates. This really sounds like a scam but it's a reality, unfortunately. Plus we don't have time-of-use rates, so we pay a fixed rate regardless time of the day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
$0.45kwh!!!!!!????? Even super chargers around here charge like $0.25kwh and feel like a scam to me. FPL has been raising its rates recently and pissing everyone off... still I think the highest I pay is $0.09kwh. So at most it costs me $6.75 to fully charge my model 3 long range.

However outside of some rare use cases I can't see how buying most any EV would save you more money than just buying a used economy car.
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      03-18-2023, 08:01 PM   #1667
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Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
$0.45kwh!!!!!!????? Even super chargers around here charge like $0.25kwh and feel like a scam to me. FPL has been raising its rates recently and pissing everyone off... still I think the highest I pay is $0.09kwh. So at most it costs me $6.75 to fully charge my model 3 long range.

However outside of some rare use cases I can't see how buying most any EV would save you more money than just buying a used economy car.
Just paid 8 bucks the last time I visited a supercharger. IIRC I was at 30%. Charged to 80. 8 bucks. Not bad.

That would be equivalent to about 45-50 bucks for a gas car.

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      03-19-2023, 08:42 AM   #1668
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Looking at my latest electric bill right now. Generation, transmission, distribution and access charges, plus taxes, all in, I pay 15 cents per kWh.

Gasoline is 10 cents per kWh in my neck of the woods...
An older ice that's stopped depreciation is likely much more cost efficient than a new ev. Where i live standard electricity rate is .43 per kwh.
Driving the way i do To get 600 miles I'll pay 117 for ev and 139 for my diesel x5. Tbh its not worth the hassle and the ev needs charged thrice.
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      03-19-2023, 09:31 AM   #1669
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So Interesting.

I ran the ICE vs. EV numbers between the Bolt and the Nissan Versa using Sedoy's MSRP for the Nissan (I didn't validate his number) and Chevy's MSRP for the bolt.

I do the calculations to 100,000 miles. I include $2,800 for ICE driveline and brake maintenance and assume all other maintenance costs are equal between ICE and EV (basically tires and repairs). I have EV maintenance to 100,000 miles at $0 since there is no combustion process to maintain (doesn't include a potential house fire and death to the occupants...). Fuel costs are 15 cents per kWh and $3.39 regular gas price (my local fuel costs). This time I added an estimated purchase price for an "out-the-door" price for both cars. My estimate is a 15% add based on my 2022 purchase of my Bronco, so both cars MSRP times 1.15. And of course subtracting the Fed Tax credit of (-$7,500) for the Bolt. The 115% estimated purchase price (above MSRP) includes the cost of a 5-year loan, dealer fees, taxes and registration costs (which vary by sate and purchase methodology).

The financial theory here is the price delta between the ICE and EV is the battery cost, which is usually thousands of dollars more for the EV; for example between an Accord and Model 3 its around $8,500, which I turn into "free ICE miles" after subtracting the ICE maintenance costs. Meaning the extra cost for the battery gives the ICE car an amount of free miles.

Doing the calcs for the Bolt vs. Versa and adding in the estimated purchase price (i.e. 115% of MSRP). The Bolt actually loses to 100,000 miles by $958.
Good for you running these numbers, I'd never get that down into the weeds but it is useful. I recall not long ago reading an article or watching a video on this topic and if I recall correctly you'd need to drive an EV well beyond 100,000 miles to past the break even point. I suspect most people won't keep them that long though.
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      03-19-2023, 10:21 AM   #1670
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Don't forget to include battery degradation about total of 10%-12% at 100K.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
So Interesting.

I ran the ICE vs. EV numbers between the Bolt and the Nissan Versa using Sedoy's MSRP for the Nissan (I didn't validate his number) and Chevy's MSRP for the bolt.

I do the calculations to 100,000 miles. I include $2,800 for ICE driveline and brake maintenance and assume all other maintenance costs are equal between ICE and EV (basically tires and repairs). I have EV maintenance to 100,000 miles at $0 since there is no combustion process to maintain (doesn't include a potential house fire and death to the occupants...). Fuel costs are 15 cents per kWh and $3.39 regular gas price (my local fuel costs). This time I added an estimated purchase price for an "out-the-door" price for both cars. My estimate is a 15% add based on my 2022 purchase of my Bronco, so both cars MSRP times 1.15. And of course subtracting the Fed Tax credit of (-$7,500) for the Bolt. The 115% estimated purchase price (above MSRP) includes the cost of a 5-year loan, dealer fees, taxes and registration costs (which vary by sate and purchase methodology).

The financial theory here is the price delta between the ICE and EV is the battery cost, which is usually thousands of dollars more for the EV; for example between an Accord and Model 3 its around $8,500, which I turn into "free ICE miles" after subtracting the ICE maintenance costs. Meaning the extra cost for the battery gives the ICE car an amount of free miles.

Doing the calcs for the Bolt vs. Versa and adding in the estimated purchase price (i.e. 115% of MSRP). The Bolt actually loses to 100,000 miles by $958.
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      03-19-2023, 10:22 AM   #1671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
So Interesting.

I ran the ICE vs. EV numbers between the Bolt and the Nissan Versa using Sedoy's MSRP for the Nissan (I didn't validate his number) and Chevy's MSRP for the bolt.

I do the calculations to 100,000 miles. I include $2,800 for ICE driveline and brake maintenance and assume all other maintenance costs are equal between ICE and EV (basically tires and repairs). I have EV maintenance to 100,000 miles at $0 since there is no combustion process to maintain (doesn't include a potential house fire and death to the occupants...). Fuel costs are 15 cents per kWh and $3.39 regular gas price (my local fuel costs). This time I added an estimated purchase price for an "out-the-door" price for both cars. My estimate is a 15% add based on my 2022 purchase of my Bronco, so both cars MSRP times 1.15. And of course subtracting the Fed Tax credit of (-$7,500) for the Bolt. The 115% estimated purchase price (above MSRP) includes the cost of a 5-year loan, dealer fees, taxes and registration costs (which vary by sate and purchase methodology).

The financial theory here is the price delta between the ICE and EV is the battery cost, which is usually thousands of dollars more for the EV; for example between an Accord and Model 3 its around $8,500, which I turn into "free ICE miles" after subtracting the ICE maintenance costs. Meaning the extra cost for the battery gives the ICE car an amount of free miles.

Doing the calcs for the Bolt vs. Versa and adding in the estimated purchase price (i.e. 115% of MSRP). The Bolt actually loses to 100,000 miles by $958.
Again didn't buy an EV for the cost savings the same way I don't buy my ICE vehicles because of their MPG. If I was looking to save the most amount of money then I would just buy a used Corolla and drive it till the wheels fall off as they say. Too lazy to do that kind of math.

HOWEVER assuming all else was equal and I liked both cars equally... I would totally pay the extra $958 to never have to go to a gas station or deal with oil changes, brakes etc.
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      03-19-2023, 11:46 AM   #1672
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My biggest problem with EVs is the battery/drivetrain replacement outside of the warranty period. There are just not enough specialists (outside of official service) in most areas to correctly perform diagnostics and replacement, plus some parts are super expensive. Judging by Telsa forums older Model S with over 100K are definitely a ticking bomb, some battery pack versions are better than the over ones, but $20K battery replacement is not something very uncommon. So I'm OK with oil changes and brakes at least for now...

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Again didn't buy an EV for the cost savings the same way I don't buy my ICE vehicles because of their MPG. If I was looking to save the most amount of money then I would just buy a used Corolla and drive it till the wheels fall off as they say. Too lazy to do that kind of math.

HOWEVER assuming all else was equal and I liked both cars equally... I would totally pay the extra $958 to never have to go to a gas station or deal with oil changes, brakes etc.
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