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      08-30-2022, 03:23 AM   #89
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Looking more into it Horner says in any case RB Powertrains have an in house set up already done like Ferrari has with engines in the pipeline and full Honda support for 2026 and onwards, so looking at it from a laymans view what would Porsche actually be doing there apart from collaboration and unlikely to actually be building Porsche engine with no planned engineering set up for this.
There is a date 15th October to register with Fia any new car firms coming on board but it's a long way to 2026 and any deals can still be considered after that.
Part RB owner Mateschitz is excited at the prospect of having a name like Porsche on the side of the RB car but RBR officials are looking at the bigger picture.

Last edited by M5Rick; 08-30-2022 at 03:53 AM..
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      08-31-2022, 02:37 PM   #90
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This was my concerned in the Porsche trademark thread. Audi will eventually take full control (based on reports) of the Audi/Sauber relationship but from was has been reported, Porsche just looks like a name on a car. Porsche looks like they want significant control of engine development but Red Bull built that division from ground up and will likely not give up majority share or control - Red Bull will finally have a full in-house operation like Mercedes, don't think they're going to give up their name even if it is Porsche.
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      08-31-2022, 03:36 PM   #91
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Indeed and I think Porsche want that as an extra badge as part of what looks like a share listing due soon. Audi need to finalise which team they are going to buy to get the leg up and Porsche who they want to put the badge on.

It’s great they are in F1 but this is no ground up amazing look how good are we entry into F1 for either of them.
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      08-31-2022, 04:36 PM   #92
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Porsche has until mid-october to sign up or else they can no longer vote on 2026 engine regs. They're either going to accept new terms or drop out of 2026 which I highly doubt they want to do.

Say whatever you want but Dietrich Mateschitz is one of the most brilliant businessmen of all time. Porsche, probably one of the greatest automotive companies of all time, couldn't achieve 1% of what an energy drink brand has in Formula 1.
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      09-01-2022, 10:45 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by NYG View Post
Porsche has until mid-october to sign up or else they can no longer vote on 2026 engine regs. They're either going to accept new terms or drop out of 2026 which I highly doubt they want to do.

Say whatever you want but Dietrich Mateschitz is one of the most brilliant businessmen of all time. Porsche, probably one of the greatest automotive companies of all time, couldn't achieve 1% of what an energy drink brand has in Formula 1.
It's just a conflict of each company's interest. Porsche wants a component to call their own and because they are a name in Motorsport. Red Bull will become a fully in-house/independent team that they've been working hard to make, don't think they're going to let anyone come in and have significant control over and be at their mercy if Porsche decides they want to leave F1.

Red Bull has complete leverage in this - they don't need Porsche or any one for that matter if they plan on doing this on their own moving forward. Maybe Honda because they already have an existing relationship but if it's a matter of doing it on their own from scratch vs. bringing in another name and giving up significant control, I think they would just do it on their own.
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      09-05-2022, 03:19 AM   #94
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The Porsche deal 'might' still happen but its looking less and less likely at the moment. Horner was very clear that it was up to Porsche to join them on their terms very publicly and they won't be changing what they do and the way the make the decisions for anyone.

Porsche it seems want more control than simply giving money to put a badge on the car so maybe they are off to look at someone else again. Who, McLaren, Williams, we shall see but Porsche entering F1 is not a forgone conclusion many think it is.

Audi are still likely to partner with Sauber especially as Alfa have dropped them for 2023 so that is looking clearer.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/13265...reholders.html
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      09-05-2022, 10:36 AM   #95
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Funny how it was Audi that got their stuff together before Porsche.
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      09-05-2022, 02:43 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYG View Post
Funny how it was Audi that got their stuff together before Porsche.
The latest regarding Red Bull and Porsche

All the negotiations have stopped between Red Bull and Porsche ..
Porsche wants too much Red Bull shares , the Porsche request was 50% +

Helmut Marko and Horner said : There won't be a Porsche deal !
We are very happy with the HONDA technology and the current performance is stronger than ever before ...
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      09-06-2022, 01:32 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYG View Post
Funny how it was Audi that got their stuff together before Porsche.
The latest regarding Red Bull and Porsche

All the negotiations have stopped between Red Bull and Porsche ..
Porsche wants too much Red Bull shares , the Porsche request was 50% +

Helmut Marko and Horner said : There won't be a Porsche deal !
We are very happy with the HONDA technology and the current performance is stronger than ever before ...
I would stick with what I know too, especially if I don't have to give up 50% of the F1 business.

I thought it was weird why Red Bull would even entertain 50% especially if you're a top tier team. Red Bull doesn't need Porsche in anyway.
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      09-06-2022, 02:29 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls View Post
I would stick with what I know too, especially if I don't have to give up 50% of the F1 business.

I thought it was weird why Red Bull would even entertain 50% especially if you're a top tier team. Red Bull doesn't need Porsche in anyway.
Sure . I wouldn't change it , knowing my HONDA PU is the 2021 + 2022 World Champion !
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      09-06-2022, 09:00 PM   #99
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I wouldn't set the team up for an eventual takeover but I most definitely would trust Porsche over Honda to develop championship hybrid power units + MGU-Ks.

Honda had a few real stinkers on their resume of a few very impressive engines.

Audi is going to be a very difficult PU to beat.
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      09-07-2022, 03:48 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYG View Post
I wouldn't set the team up for an eventual takeover but I most definitely would trust Porsche over Honda to develop championship hybrid power units + MGU-Ks.

Honda had a few real stinkers on their resume of a few very impressive engines.

Audi is going to be a very difficult PU to beat.
So you trust Porsche that have never created a world class F1 engine (they were average butter engines at best in F1) but not Honda that have created MANY including the current engine in the back of the leading RB. Ok then....
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      09-07-2022, 08:44 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by MontyB1 View Post
So you trust Porsche that have never created a world class F1 engine (they were average butter engines at best in F1) but not Honda that have created MANY including the current engine in the back of the leading RB. Ok then....
Except Porsche dominates in every racing series they participate in and the 2026 engine regs are something they're already very familiar with and have been dominating at along with Audi. Why do you think they wanted to wait for 2026 engine regs before agreeing?

"Average butter engines" previously is a pretty vague description of their pretty limited involvement in F1 although yes, Honda has had more success but also more failure.

Porsche will 100000000000000000000% destroy Honda for 2026 engine regs.
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      09-07-2022, 02:31 PM   #102
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      09-08-2022, 11:37 AM   #103
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https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/...deal-geplatzt/

Quote:
Porsche deal already dead?
Red Bull has made it clear that the team's independence is more important than an engine contract. That challenges Porsche. The aim is to push the Germans down to the terms that were originally agreed.

The dream marriage of Red Bull and Porsche has not yet broken off, but the wedding has been postponed. According to Red Bull, the negotiations are currently on ice. Sports director Helmut Marko speaks of a "standstill". The racing team is not prepared to sell parts of its team or the holding company, let alone 50 per cent.

Sporting director Helmut Marko and team boss Christian Horner insist on their independence. And they are supported in this by company founder Dietrich Mateschitz. According to rumours, there was also a trip to Bangkok during the summer break to swear the Thai majority owners to the new line.

Red Bull team boss Christian Horner said at Zandvoort: "We are an independent team and we have always operated like that to be flexible and fast and efficient. That is part of the DNA of Red Bull. The power unit is a different challenge. If there is a partner we can work with, it makes sense."

Porsche wanted more

So the cloth is not yet torn. If the conditions are right, a collaboration with Porsche is still possible. They would be prepared to sell shares in the engine division "RB Powertrains" to Porsche, Marko lets slip.

The dissonance in the talks with Porsche apparently arose when Porsche changed the agreements and demanded a higher share in the parent company "Red Bull Technologies" than originally agreed. With the corresponding right to a say.

Marko and Horner, however, do not want to be interfered with in their core business. That's why Honda is the ideal partner at the moment. The Japanese supply a winning engine, but do not interfere in the team's decisions. Honda has coupled its own junior programme with the Red Bull Junior Team. But here, too, Red Bull ultimately decides which driver gets the nod.

Going it alone if necessary

Red Bull makes it quite clear to Porsche that, if necessary, they can do everything on their own. At RB Powertrains, the 300 employees have already completed a prototype of the 2026 engine. The power unit for the future is already running on the test bench.

Horner reveals, "We've recruited a lot of the best talent from Formula 1 to Red Bull Powertrains, we've built a factory in 55 weeks and have fully functioning test beds. Our path does not depend on any outside investment or commitment. If there is the right partner strategically, then of course we are interested." Porsche would be such a partner.

In Zuffenhausen, however, they have to say goodbye to the idea of taking over a Formula 1 team through the back door. If you're successful, it doesn't really matter whether you have team shares or not. If you market your victories well, you also get enough of the glory as an engine supplier.

Mercedes, for example, practised this for a long time. McLaren was also a strong brand as a chassis partner and the engines were built by Ilmor in Brixworth and not by Mercedes in Stuttgart. Nevertheless, Mercedes won in the end.

Porsche relies on Red Bull

Red Bull's stalling policy puts Porsche in a tight spot. Because of the now approved IPO before the end of the year, the window of opportunity to reach an agreement is getting narrower and narrower. Waiting until after the IPO would mean missing the FIA deadline of 15 October. Since Porsche is extremely important to the F1 management and the world governing body, they are currently looking for emergency solutions to the deadline conflict.

There are no alternatives for Porsche. In Zandvoort, there were rumours that McLaren could be an alternative address because team boss Andreas Seidl is very well known in Zuffenhausen. But as Audi has already learned, McLaren is not willing to sell its team either.

And Porsche would then have to build the engine all by itself. They have neither the personnel nor the infrastructure. That's why the connection with Red Bull would be so ideal. There is a functioning engine factory there that is on schedule with the development of the 2026 engine. Porsche would only have to contribute its expertise in certain areas.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)


Red Bull was the laughing stock of F1 when they took over Jaguar even with their Sauber sponsorship a decade before. An energy drink company trying to race with the big boys??? Hahaha!!

Well, 18 years later, 5 driver championships, 4 constructor championships and another one of each coming their way - this "energy drink" basically carried Formula 1 pre-DTS.

Porsche needs Red Bull, not the other way around. They need to calm their entitled asses down or join F1 as their own team and put in the work to get even half of Red Bull's reputation and pedigree in F1.
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      09-09-2022, 03:42 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYG View Post
Porsche will 100000000000000000000% destroy Honda for 2026 engine regs.
Well no they won't because Porsche have officially called off plans to enter F1 having failed to get agreement with Porsche. So its Audi on the grid, with who we don't know yet, maybe they go engine creation only??

Porsche Officially calls off F1 Entry plans after no Redbull deal
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      09-09-2022, 09:23 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by MontyB1 View Post
Well no they won't because Porsche have officially called off plans to enter F1 having failed to get agreement with Porsche. So its Audi on the grid, with who we don't know yet, maybe they go engine creation only??

Porsche Officially calls off F1 Entry plans after no Redbull deal
That was Porsche's plan to begin with. The clock is running because if Porsche doesn't sign up as a PU manufacturer by some date in October, they won't be able to vote on anything for 2026 and at that point they'll back out.
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      09-09-2022, 09:28 AM   #106
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I think it's all over for Porsche, they only want complete control and Honda have always been easy to do business with a winning PU.
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      09-09-2022, 09:34 AM   #107
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I think it's all over for Porsche, they only want complete control and Honda have always been easy to do business with a winning PU.
I think Red Bull knows exactly what they're doing and Honda has already expressed the fact that they pulled out too early.
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      09-09-2022, 10:09 AM   #108
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Personally, Porsche and Audi should just try and do something. I know very unorthodox with two OEM/manufacturers but there's no real attractive team Porsche can partner up with. Doesn't look like Porsche would be willing to build up a team, instead wanted relative quick success with Red Bull.
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      09-09-2022, 10:23 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls View Post
Personally, Porsche and Audi should just try and do something. I know very unorthodox with two OEM/manufacturers but there's no real attractive team Porsche can partner up with. Doesn't look like Porsche would be willing to build up a team, instead wanted relative quick success with Red Bull.
Williams and maybe McLaren can be an option still but I think time is not on Porsche's side.

Audi would not work with Porsche on this and vice versa.
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      09-09-2022, 10:40 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYG View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls View Post
Personally, Porsche and Audi should just try and do something. I know very unorthodox with two OEM/manufacturers but there's no real attractive team Porsche can partner up with. Doesn't look like Porsche would be willing to build up a team, instead wanted relative quick success with Red Bull.
Williams and maybe McLaren can be an option still but I think time is not on Porsche's side.

Audi would not work with Porsche on this and vice versa.
Williams no, it would be too long before Porsche would get any success they would want. McLaren maybe but that would mean two OEM/manufacturers which probably would be a no go.

This would apply go Porsche/Audi but you'd figure under the same parent company, there could be some compromise and everyone wins - VW, Audi, Porsche could all look like superstars while potentially sticking it to Mercedes while having operations solely on German soil.
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