New 2009 2010 BMW Z4 - ZPOST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Today's Posts


Go Back   New 2009 2010 BMW Z4 - ZPOST > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-06-2024, 10:34 AM   #45
dreamingat30fps
Colonel
United_States
5902
Rep
2,010
Posts

Drives: Miata, Cayenne, Model 3, F350
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Florida & NC

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
You state car enthusiasts who don't accept the EV should be ashamed to call themselves enthusiasts. You state EV "haters" don't accept EV because they can't "separate" the vehicle from politics, but EV solely exist because of broad political policy and are being legislated in as a transition to alternative fueled vehicles. Legislated as THE ONLY choice. One thing car enthusiasts agree on is diversity of product and choice.
You've basically proven my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I'm a die hard car enthusiast, stop trying to insult your fellow fourm members who are enthusiasts.
I see how it works. So it's OK to call people who like EVs not real car enthusiasts or NPCs or whatever other insult ya'll like, but saying an EV hater is not a real car enthusiasts is an INSULT? Interesting double standard there.
Appreciate 0
      05-06-2024, 01:31 PM   #46
Efthreeoh
General
United_States
18983
Rep
19,612
Posts

Drives: The E90 + Z4 Coupe & Z3 R'ster
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
You've basically proven my point.



I see how it works. So it's OK to call people who like EVs not real car enthusiasts or NPCs or whatever other insult ya'll like, but saying an EV hater is not a real car enthusiasts is an INSULT? Interesting double standard there.
Here's my post in this thread regarding the OP's discussion:

"I'll go in defense of the car guy assistance. While I'm not a fan of Tesla's Model 3/Y design nor the HMI inside because it's too much reliant on the screen, if the family member is keen on the charging requirements and understand what they are getting into, then I can't argue the choice. If it fits their use case of course.

The only friction I see is your family member is not car-oriented, which is fine, the World needs diversification, but with an EV it forces you to pay more attention to the apparatus. Tesla makes it much easier than the CCS EV environment, but it's still not gas-and-go like they are use to."

Nowhere did I state EV owners or EV advocates are not car enthusiasts. There are a lot of automobiles that are "appliance grade" (Toyota proudly makes them and some of the best examples) and some car enthusiasts own such vehicles, my E90 may fit that scenario; it's BMW's Camry (but drives waaaay better). In the other EV thread I've never suggested EV'ers aren't or can't be auto enthusiasts. And I don't "hate" EV, I just think powering them with a big-ass battery is just stupid and myopic.

But proving the point about the political aspect of EV, yup, exactly, the two are tied together at the hip. But you're wrong about separating the EV hate from the hate of the politics. I judge EV on their automotive merit too, I just don't see any merit that move me off the current ICEV architecture; EV don't offer anything over ICEV from my point of view.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 05-06-2024 at 01:48 PM..
Appreciate 0
      05-06-2024, 02:12 PM   #47
dreamingat30fps
Colonel
United_States
5902
Rep
2,010
Posts

Drives: Miata, Cayenne, Model 3, F350
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Florida & NC

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Nowhere did I state EV owners or EV advocates are not car enthusiasts. There are a lot of automobiles that are "appliance grade" (Toyota proudly makes them and some of the best examples) and some car enthusiasts own such vehicles, my E90 may fit that scenario; it's BMW's Camry (but drives waaaay better). In the other EV thread I've never suggested EV'ers aren't or can't be auto enthusiasts. And I don't "hate" EV, I just think powering them with a big-ass battery is just stupid and myopic.
And my statement was not a reply to your post or directed at you. It was a general comment. Half the posts in this thread are indeed stating EV owners are not car enthusiasts or the like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
But proving the point about the political aspect of EV, yup, exactly, the two are tied together at the hip. But you're wrong about separating the EV hate from the hate of the politics. I judge EV on their automotive merit too, I just don't see any merit that move me off the current ICEV architecture; EV don't offer anything over ICEV from my point of view.
Again... I never mentioned you specifically. Honestly you are one of the more rational people in the EV threads... I see you in an EV in the future.

YOU may be able to judge EVs on their automotive merit, but many cannot. Just because they are tied to political policies does not mean they cannot be judged solely on their automotive merit. And Don't tell me all the rage is based on merit because you would never see this kind of rage for ANY other vehicle no matter how shitty it may be. If the OP had bought a corolla this thread would have been a half page of "Cool", "Congrats", "".

Like I've said more times than I care to count... I don't agree with any of the EV policies. I don't think they should be mandated (and I don't think it will end up happening either) and I don't think they should have any subsides... AND I still love my Tesla.
Appreciate 0
      05-06-2024, 02:52 PM   #48
Alfisti
Brigadier General
6885
Rep
3,224
Posts

Drives: 2008 Saab 9-3 Combi
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada

iTrader: (0)

My only question is the value vs a gas powered car given the low annual mileage. What's a funnish but sensible alternative and what's it cost? Mazda maybe? X2 bimmer? Stelvio?
Appreciate 0
      05-07-2024, 08:06 AM   #49
SteVTEC
Lieutenant
SteVTEC's Avatar
413
Rep
514
Posts

Drives: '11 335i vert
Join Date: May 2006
Location: DC burbs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
But proving the point about the political aspect of EV, yup, exactly, the two are tied together at the hip. But you're wrong about separating the EV hate from the hate of the politics. I judge EV on their automotive merit too, I just don't see any merit that move me off the current ICEV architecture; EV don't offer anything over ICEV from my point of view.
Instantaneous neck-snapping acceleration from any speed, the ability to shift pollution out of densely populated areas, great efficiency in urban/suburban driving where you can regen to brake (mitigates battery weight to an extent), and lower cost per mile assuming you can home charge or have access to freebie chargers and the electricity rates are low enough for that to make sense are all merits for EV's.

But the barely 200 mile straight highway range is the first of several deal breakers for me. I despise everything about the various agendas for them as well, but I separate that out from the merits of the vehicles themselves. And I agree with you that the massive 1000-1500 lb batteries (or larger) are stupid.
__________________
2022 G05 X5 40i Phytonic Blue / Ivory | 2011 E93 335i Deep Sea Blue / Oyster | 2012 E70 X5d Deep Sea Blue / Sand Beige (ret)
2018 Chevy Suburban Premier 4x4, Pepperdust / Cocoa, Adaptive Cruise, HUD, 3.42 gears (my DD & full circus long-hauler)
Appreciate 0
      05-07-2024, 08:11 AM   #50
SteVTEC
Lieutenant
SteVTEC's Avatar
413
Rep
514
Posts

Drives: '11 335i vert
Join Date: May 2006
Location: DC burbs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
Like I've said more times than I care to count... I don't agree with any of the EV policies. I don't think they should be mandated (and I don't think it will end up happening either) and I don't think they should have any subsides... AND I still love my Tesla.
That' my biggest beef with them, the way they're being rammed down everyone's throats whether we want them or they'd even work for us or not. They care not. They're going to make the ICEV regulatory requirements so onerous that many vehicle manufacturers will just give up on ICEV, which is precisely what they want. And then the powers that be will start their gas-lighting by saying "wE DiDn'T bAn GaS pOwErEd CaRs" when they effectively did.

__________________
2022 G05 X5 40i Phytonic Blue / Ivory | 2011 E93 335i Deep Sea Blue / Oyster | 2012 E70 X5d Deep Sea Blue / Sand Beige (ret)
2018 Chevy Suburban Premier 4x4, Pepperdust / Cocoa, Adaptive Cruise, HUD, 3.42 gears (my DD & full circus long-hauler)
Appreciate 0
      05-07-2024, 08:16 AM   #51
SteVTEC
Lieutenant
SteVTEC's Avatar
413
Rep
514
Posts

Drives: '11 335i vert
Join Date: May 2006
Location: DC burbs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
My only question is the value vs a gas powered car given the low annual mileage. What's a funnish but sensible alternative and what's it cost? Mazda maybe? X2 bimmer? Stelvio?
Good question.

I didn't realize how much nicer the X1/X2 has gotten. Might have been worth considering, but they weren't interested in any BMW's. Also in Cali the gas prices are already high enough as it is, so going from a vehicle that takes regular to one that requires premium isn't a good selling point. Definitely not a Stelvio. Alfas aren't known for their reliability. Mazda's are nice and they do tune many of them for regular grade fuel, but not really an "inspirational" brand. Not really a step up, although most anything is a huge step up from a 15+ year old Toyota.
__________________
2022 G05 X5 40i Phytonic Blue / Ivory | 2011 E93 335i Deep Sea Blue / Oyster | 2012 E70 X5d Deep Sea Blue / Sand Beige (ret)
2018 Chevy Suburban Premier 4x4, Pepperdust / Cocoa, Adaptive Cruise, HUD, 3.42 gears (my DD & full circus long-hauler)
Appreciate 0
      05-07-2024, 01:38 PM   #52
Efthreeoh
General
United_States
18983
Rep
19,612
Posts

Drives: The E90 + Z4 Coupe & Z3 R'ster
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteVTEC View Post
Instantaneous neck-snapping acceleration from any speed, the ability to shift pollution out of densely populated areas, great efficiency in urban/suburban driving where you can regen to brake (mitigates battery weight to an extent), and lower cost per mile assuming you can home charge or have access to freebie chargers and the electricity rates are low enough for that to make sense are all merits for EV's.

But the barely 200 mile straight highway range is the first of several deal breakers for me. I despise everything about the various agendas for them as well, but I separate that out from the merits of the vehicles themselves. And I agree with you that the massive 1000-1500 lb batteries (or larger) are stupid.
Cost per mile, yes, the only metric to consider. I've not done the calcs in about a year, but my past numbers never showed any total ownership cost advantage (cents per mile) when one compares the same class car in gas to EV (including govt. incentives).
Appreciate 0
      05-07-2024, 02:25 PM   #53
Humdizzle
Brigadier General
6517
Rep
3,847
Posts

Drives: 991.2 GT3
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Missouri

iTrader: (0)

i ran the numbers for myself and EV didn't make sense. but 99% of my commute is 75mph highway. i'd only save $500 per 10k miles switching from a new 2024 civic (87 octane, 35mpg, $27000) to a used model 3 ($30,000). annual insurance cost is going to be more on the tesla as well (it would probably offset oil change costs on the civic).

civics interior absolutely blows a model 3 away imo.

the charge time was a deal breaker with how low the highway range is at 80mph. and i didn't want my trips to resolve around supercharger locations.

PHEV is the way imo. you get all the positives of electric without the drawbacks of low highway range or long wait time to charge when you're busy.

EV does make sense if you live in a large city with everything nearby
__________________

2018 Porsche GT3 6MT

Previous: Ferrari 458 | R35 GTR | F80 M3 | F87 M2c | E46 M3 | E36 M3 | Scion FRS
Appreciate 0
      05-07-2024, 03:33 PM   #54
dreamingat30fps
Colonel
United_States
5902
Rep
2,010
Posts

Drives: Miata, Cayenne, Model 3, F350
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Florida & NC

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteVTEC View Post
That' my biggest beef with them, the way they're being rammed down everyone's throats whether we want them or they'd even work for us or not. They care not. They're going to make the ICEV regulatory requirements so onerous that many vehicle manufacturers will just give up on ICEV, which is precisely what they want. And then the powers that be will start their gas-lighting by saying "wE DiDn'T bAn GaS pOwErEd CaRs" when they effectively did.

No doubt, but that has been an issue way before EVs. Most cars have been getting shittier and shitter (from a driving dynamics perspective) because of emission standards for a long time.

Like Cammisa said in that podcast posted in another thread. At this point for me, I would rather have an EV than some 4 cylinder turbo with a cvt pumping in fake engine sounds any day.

Will they manage to phase out ICE by making them shittier than EVs... maybe. However I don't think it will happen by 2030 or whatever they are claiming. At least not in the US (whats that like 2 election cycles away?). As has already been stated a million times in other threads EVs do not work for everyone. Lots of people do not have the ability to charge at home and in many places the grid could simply not handle everyone switching to EVs overnight.

None of that changes the fact that for many other people EVs are a better choice.
Appreciate 0
      05-07-2024, 03:50 PM   #55
NickyC
Lieutenant General
NickyC's Avatar
19171
Rep
11,175
Posts

Drives: M4 CS. Former G82, x2 F82, F80
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Jacked out of my mind

iTrader: (23)

Nice color, helluva deal.
Appreciate 1
SteVTEC412.50
      05-07-2024, 08:48 PM   #56
SteVTEC
Lieutenant
SteVTEC's Avatar
413
Rep
514
Posts

Drives: '11 335i vert
Join Date: May 2006
Location: DC burbs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Cost per mile, yes, the only metric to consider. I've not done the calcs in about a year, but my past numbers never showed any total ownership cost advantage (cents per mile) when one compares the same class car in gas to EV (including govt. incentives).
Well right now, because of their offset and ultra-flex work schedule working for a European company in California, and being able to just cruise on over to freebie Level 2 destination chargers and chill or hit the gym, mall, grocery store, etc. while everybody else is in the middle of their work day, their costs per mile are ZERO.

Not sure how long that will hold, but their old car would be about $2000 per year in gas at $6/gallon and how much they drive. Will not take long for that to really add up and completely offset the cost of the car vs. whatever they might have bought otherwise (no idea). Very atypical situation for sure, but that's the math in this case.
__________________
2022 G05 X5 40i Phytonic Blue / Ivory | 2011 E93 335i Deep Sea Blue / Oyster | 2012 E70 X5d Deep Sea Blue / Sand Beige (ret)
2018 Chevy Suburban Premier 4x4, Pepperdust / Cocoa, Adaptive Cruise, HUD, 3.42 gears (my DD & full circus long-hauler)
Appreciate 0
      05-07-2024, 08:52 PM   #57
Efthreeoh
General
United_States
18983
Rep
19,612
Posts

Drives: The E90 + Z4 Coupe & Z3 R'ster
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteVTEC View Post
Well right now, because of their offset and ultra-flex work schedule working for a European company in California, and being able to just cruise on over to freebie Level 2 destination chargers and chill or hit the gym, mall, grocery store, etc. while everybody else is in the middle of their work day, their costs per mile are ZERO.

Not sure how long that will hold, but their old car would be about $2000 per year in gas at $6/gallon and how much they drive. Will not take long for that to really add up and completely offset the cost of the car vs. whatever they might have bought otherwise (no idea). Very atypical situation for sure, but that's the math in this case.
You are leaving out (i.e. not including) the price of the car in the calculations.
Appreciate 0
      05-07-2024, 09:29 PM   #58
SteVTEC
Lieutenant
SteVTEC's Avatar
413
Rep
514
Posts

Drives: '11 335i vert
Join Date: May 2006
Location: DC burbs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humdizzle View Post
i ran the numbers for myself and EV didn't make sense. but 99% of my commute is 75mph highway. i'd only save $500 per 10k miles switching from a new 2024 civic (87 octane, 35mpg, $27000) to a used model 3 ($30,000). annual insurance cost is going to be more on the tesla as well (it would probably offset oil change costs on the civic).

civics interior absolutely blows a model 3 away imo.

the charge time was a deal breaker with how low the highway range is at 80mph. and i didn't want my trips to resolve around supercharger locations.

PHEV is the way imo. you get all the positives of electric without the drawbacks of low highway range or long wait time to charge when you're busy.

EV does make sense if you live in a large city with everything nearby
Yes, straight highway comparing similarly sized vehicles and ICE/hybrid vs EV, the EV's rarely add up, especially in terms of "total energy consumption" by both.

Not a big fan of PHEV. Too complicated having two complete powertrains in one vehicle. Lots to go wrong also. I would consider a Toyota PHEV because it's their core competency, but BMW is sadly having lots of trouble with their 50e models right now. I would rather go straight ICEV or hybrid, or full EV, and skip the PHEV option. Really just depends on your mix of highway vs city driving. ICE/hybrid all favor highway, and EV/PHEV favor more city driving. Hybrids actually do quite well in both, but aren't going to match the performance of EV's is all.

For a long highway commute, you're not gonna beat the new Prius!
__________________
2022 G05 X5 40i Phytonic Blue / Ivory | 2011 E93 335i Deep Sea Blue / Oyster | 2012 E70 X5d Deep Sea Blue / Sand Beige (ret)
2018 Chevy Suburban Premier 4x4, Pepperdust / Cocoa, Adaptive Cruise, HUD, 3.42 gears (my DD & full circus long-hauler)
Appreciate 1
Humdizzle6517.00
      05-07-2024, 09:39 PM   #59
SteVTEC
Lieutenant
SteVTEC's Avatar
413
Rep
514
Posts

Drives: '11 335i vert
Join Date: May 2006
Location: DC burbs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
You are leaving out (i.e. not including) the price of the car in the calculations.
Right. If you're talking compared to an ICEV, there was never a serious contender in the running in this case, so nothing to run any numbers against.
__________________
2022 G05 X5 40i Phytonic Blue / Ivory | 2011 E93 335i Deep Sea Blue / Oyster | 2012 E70 X5d Deep Sea Blue / Sand Beige (ret)
2018 Chevy Suburban Premier 4x4, Pepperdust / Cocoa, Adaptive Cruise, HUD, 3.42 gears (my DD & full circus long-hauler)
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:21 PM.




zpost
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST