New 2009 2010 BMW Z4 - ZPOST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   New 2009 2010 BMW Z4 - ZPOST > BMW Z4 Forum (E89) > 2009-Current Z4 Forum (E89) General Discussion

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-17-2013, 09:26 PM   #1
williakz
Banned
1
Rep
119
Posts

 
Drives: Lexus LS460
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: AL

iTrader: (0)

Advice on Buying a New Z4

Noob here. Looking at buying a new 2014 35i with all options except 19". Is it OK to discuss discounting, negotiating tactics, delivery options, etc. here on the forum? If so, how does the BMW buying experience compare with that at a Lexus dealership (my experience to date)? If not, where is a good place to go to discuss price, financing, options, etc.? Thanks in advance for any info.

P.S. This is a GREAT forum! I've already consumed all the posts for the last 2 years and found them immensely helpful in understanding what make the car tick (as well as some of the drivers!).
Appreciate 0
      04-17-2013, 11:01 PM   #2
hyper1
Lieutenant
Canada
7
Rep
543
Posts

 
Drives: 2013, Z4/28
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: BC,Canada

iTrader: (1)

Z4

Good question.
I'm in the process of negotiation with my dealer to trade the 135 for a Z4/28.
thanks for asking
Appreciate 0
      04-17-2013, 11:03 PM   #3
SgtGigglebox
Lieutenant
SgtGigglebox's Avatar
United_States
6
Rep
427
Posts

 
Drives: '13 Atacama 35is
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Washington D.C. Area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by williakz View Post
Noob here. Looking at buying a new 2014 35i with all options except 19". Is it OK to discuss discounting, negotiating tactics, delivery options, etc. here on the forum? If so, how does the BMW buying experience compare with that at a Lexus dealership (my experience to date)? If not, where is a good place to go to discuss price, financing, options, etc.? Thanks in advance for any info.

P.S. This is a GREAT forum! I've already consumed all the posts for the last 2 years and found them immensely helpful in understanding what make the car tick (as well as some of the drivers!).
Hi Williakz,

Welcome to the forum! In terms of questions, I'd say fire away. Some are more or less discreet about the terms of their respective deals, but there are more than enough people that seem more than happy to answer genuine questions.

Off the top of my head, I would emphatically recommend the Performance Center Delivery, which is free (you just pay to get yourself and a guest to SC). However, I wouldn't bring it up until the deal is already struck or numbers are firm since it appeared to be less favorable to the dealer for some reason. I'm guessing that it drives some internal metric on cars moved off of their specific lots, etc... but I definitely got the impression that they would have been less accommodating (mathematically) had we decided on the performance center option earlier.

In fact, I've included the Info sheet that they sent us prior to heading down to SC.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Delivery Information Attachment.pdf (1.29 MB, 116 views)
Appreciate 0
      04-17-2013, 11:07 PM   #4
williakz
Banned
1
Rep
119
Posts

 
Drives: Lexus LS460
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: AL

iTrader: (0)

Transactions with trades are tough. The dealer has TWO levers; discounting on the new one and trade-in allowance on the old one. I usually split them into two separate transactions where the purchase price is negotiated, then the trade-in is settled. If worse comes to worst, you can always sell the old one privately or to another dealer (CarMax, etc.) At least you can take comfort in knowing you got the best price on the new one!

I'm finding general prices at a few hundred over invoice. Is that normal on BMWs? I generally use a buying service to drive down the dealer margin, but I was shocked at how thin the negotiated margins appear to be for such a popular brand. What gives?
Appreciate 0
      04-17-2013, 11:11 PM   #5
williakz
Banned
1
Rep
119
Posts

 
Drives: Lexus LS460
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: AL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtGigglebox View Post

Welcome to the forum!

...I would emphatically recommend the Performance Center Delivery...
Thanks for the welcome and the great info on the PCD. My wife and I are already considering a quick trip to SC to enjoy the festivities. Depending on dealer numbers, it may be better to drive a hard bargain with the dealer and take delivery at his location than to play the PCD delivery game. I don't know enough about the economics yet to see how to proceed...
Appreciate 0
      04-17-2013, 11:30 PM   #6
SgtGigglebox
Lieutenant
SgtGigglebox's Avatar
United_States
6
Rep
427
Posts

 
Drives: '13 Atacama 35is
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Washington D.C. Area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by williakz View Post
Thanks for the welcome and the great info on the PCD. My wife and I are already considering a quick trip to SC to enjoy the festivities. Depending on dealer numbers, it may be better to drive a hard bargain with the dealer and take delivery at his location than to play the PCD delivery game. I don't know enough about the economics yet to see how to proceed...
I guess that's what I was trying to say, I'd work out the numbers first. At some point later in the process, mention that you were thinking about the PCD. At that point they're kinda stuck with whatever deal they struck.
Appreciate 0
      04-17-2013, 11:47 PM   #7
williakz
Banned
1
Rep
119
Posts

 
Drives: Lexus LS460
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: AL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtGigglebox View Post
At some point later in the process, mention that you were thinking about the PCD. At that point they're kinda stuck with whatever deal they struck.
I don't think I'd be too happy if the dealership pulled something sudden on me. It's really just a matter of understanding how PCD affects the dealer. He either makes money (in which case he'd be pushing it), has no effect (in which case there should be no conflict), or it costs him money (which seems likely given what you've said already). So how does it cost him money, and how much? Then, if I can do something to help him, he'll be inclined to do something to help me, no?

The real attraction of SC to me is the driving courses (for which tuition is apparently required according to the flyer). So I've got to figure out how NOT to cost my dealer extra money AND how to get a free ride, so to speak, at the driving school in SC. Should be fun!
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2013, 04:36 AM   #8
nicknaz
Brigadier General
United_States
51
Rep
4,208
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 Z4 35i
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Diego CA

iTrader: (0)

When I ordered my wife's 328 it was very smooth and the agree upon contract was honored with no hassles.

The only thing I would add is why not get a leftover 2012 or 2013. You can get a SMOKING deal if you don't mind the different headlights and turnsignals
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2013, 11:24 AM   #9
williakz
Banned
1
Rep
119
Posts

 
Drives: Lexus LS460
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: AL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
The only thing I would add is why not get a leftover 2012 or 2013.
My problems with 12/13 models center on their typical option mix, not the minor details of year-over-year changes, and definitely NOT whatever discounts are available (few at present, more later). The new 2014 standard equipment and package configurations put some "essential" options in just about every car whereas they were missing from just about every car in prior years. For example, Comfort Access (remote entry/start) is a big deal for the wife (her car) since she has less ready access to a key than I do with all my pockets. The Tech Package puts all the heretofore miscellaneous communication options in one place. While still a standalone option, Park Distance Control (proximity beepers) is a necessity for my wife (and me so I don't have to pay for bumper repairs on all four corners!)

Besides such convenience options which most customers (guys) were apparently more than willing to pass up, there are some anomalies in the used/prior year market that I don't get. First, I (my wife) don't need the boosted engine in the 35is. Also, the 35is seems almost universally to have the 19" wheels which I don't want due to comfort/handling issues. Therefore, the 35i is the preferred vehicle. But in the 35i, M Sport is an option, so many current cars don't have it. Of the ones that do, irritations like the ones I mentioned above operate to restrict acceptable candidates. Finally, if you're paying north of $50k for a car, spending another thousand or two to make it "perfect" is more sensible than paying 98% of the price and NOT getting what you want. Thus 2014 35i ordered EXACTLY as desired.
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2013, 11:36 AM   #10
williakz
Banned
1
Rep
119
Posts

 
Drives: Lexus LS460
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: AL

iTrader: (0)

Info on PCD (performance Center Delivery)

The reason dealers are generally negative on PCD is because the vehicle sold is from BMW's production line rather than the dealer's lot inventory. Obviously, dealers much prefer turning inventory rather than placing factory production directly. Also, there are potential problems associated with any activity scheduled at a remote location (lost plates, miscommunication, sudden rescheduling, etc.) for which the dealer gets little in terms of benefit but shoulders all the blame for anything gone wrong. In the normal course of events, PCD is a lose-lose proposition for dealers. BUT...

Since little or no 2014 inventory exists on dealer lots currently, dealers are only too happy to have a "freebie" to help sell vehicles they don't actually have. Thus, PCD is a gift from heaven to dealers and they are pushing it big-time for 2014 Z4 orders. Now, the equation shifts such that PCD does all the grunt post-sale work of explaining Z4 operation, fixing little nits, and dealing with customer complaints while the dealer is freed to pursue additional sales. Works for everybody, but as soon as 2014 allocations arrive on dealer lots, it'll swing back to the default mode: grousing dealers and grabby customers.

That's my take.
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2013, 03:14 PM   #11
SgtGigglebox
Lieutenant
SgtGigglebox's Avatar
United_States
6
Rep
427
Posts

 
Drives: '13 Atacama 35is
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Washington D.C. Area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by williakz View Post
Info on PCD (performance Center Delivery)

The reason dealers are generally negative on PCD is because the vehicle sold is from BMW's production line rather than the dealer's lot inventory. Obviously, dealers much prefer turning inventory rather than placing factory production directly. Also, there are potential problems associated with any activity scheduled at a remote location (lost plates, miscommunication, sudden rescheduling, etc.) for which the dealer gets little in terms of benefit but shoulders all the blame for anything gone wrong. In the normal course of events, PCD is a lose-lose proposition for dealers. BUT...

Since little or no 2014 inventory exists on dealer lots currently, dealers are only too happy to have a "freebie" to help sell vehicles they don't actually have. Thus, PCD is a gift from heaven to dealers and they are pushing it big-time for 2014 Z4 orders. Now, the equation shifts such that PCD does all the grunt post-sale work of explaining Z4 operation, fixing little nits, and dealing with customer complaints while the dealer is freed to pursue additional sales. Works for everybody, but as soon as 2014 allocations arrive on dealer lots, it'll swing back to the default mode: grousing dealers and grabby customers.

That's my take.
I buy that
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2013, 03:59 PM   #12
williakz
Banned
1
Rep
119
Posts

 
Drives: Lexus LS460
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: AL

iTrader: (0)

OK, so here's my pitch (to out-of-state dealers only):

1. I want the following vehicle - detailed specs given with easily verifiable MSRP and Invoice pricing.

2. I will finance the entire amount of the transaction through PenFed at 0.74% for 48 months (i.e. your finance dept has NO chance at my business)

3. I want Performance Center Delivery (you have no dealer costs associated with sale)

4. I will have the vehicle serviced at my local dealer (you will never see me again)

5. Considering the above, I want your absolute rock-bottom price capped by the lower of PenFed and Costco auto buying programs. I won't accept doc fees, dealer packs, or any other add-ons other than out-of-state sales tax (2.75% in my case) and actual title fees.

I am shopping this deal around to dealers all over the USA since none of them will ever see me or the vehicle. Simply a matter of pushing paper and collecting my money. What do you guys think?
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2013, 04:06 PM   #13
SgtGigglebox
Lieutenant
SgtGigglebox's Avatar
United_States
6
Rep
427
Posts

 
Drives: '13 Atacama 35is
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Washington D.C. Area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by williakz View Post
OK, so here's my pitch (to out-of-state dealers only):

1. I want the following vehicle - detailed specs given with easily verifiable MSRP and Invoice pricing.

2. I will finance the entire amount of the transaction through PenFed at 0.74% for 48 months (i.e. your finance dept has NO chance at my business)

3. I want Performance Center Delivery (you have no dealer costs associated with sale)

4. I will have the vehicle serviced at my local dealer (you will never see me again)

5. Considering the above, I want your absolute rock-bottom price capped by the lower of PenFed and Costco auto buying programs. I won't accept doc fees, dealer packs, or any other add-ons other than out-of-state sales tax (2.75% in my case) and actual title fees.

I am shopping this deal around to dealers all over the USA since none of them will ever see me or the vehicle. Simply a matter of pushing paper and collecting my money. What do you guys think?
First off, Hell yeah for PenFed... they've financed my last 4 cars, fantastic rates.

I don't think that I wouldn't say anything about the serviced elsewhere point. Just like the actual sale of the car, I believe that the dealership sees revenue (albeit less and reimbursed) from all service work and it could have the opposite effect. I could be wrong though.
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2013, 04:24 PM   #14
jparnes1
Lieutenant Colonel
jparnes1's Avatar
No_Country
22
Rep
1,786
Posts

 
Drives: 2006 525xi, 2012 Z4 35i
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rochester, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by williakz View Post
OK, so here's my pitch (to out-of-state dealers only):

1. I want the following vehicle - detailed specs given with easily verifiable MSRP and Invoice pricing.

2. I will finance the entire amount of the transaction through PenFed at 0.74% for 48 months (i.e. your finance dept has NO chance at my business)

3. I want Performance Center Delivery (you have no dealer costs associated with sale)

4. I will have the vehicle serviced at my local dealer (you will never see me again)

5. Considering the above, I want your absolute rock-bottom price capped by the lower of PenFed and Costco auto buying programs. I won't accept doc fees, dealer packs, or any other add-ons other than out-of-state sales tax (2.75% in my case) and actual title fees.

I am shopping this deal around to dealers all over the USA since none of them will ever see me or the vehicle. Simply a matter of pushing paper and collecting my money. What do you guys think?
So what does that mean? You will forego all warranty maintenance or repairs? Come on, you'll see a BMW dealer at some point.
__________________
2012 Z4 35i, ED 2/24/2012, Melbourne Red Metallic, Black Leather, Carbon Trim, 6MT, ///M Sport, CW, PP, PS, NAV, CA, LED Angel Eyes, red calipers, pedal covers, stubby antenna, Luxon strut bar, CF engine cover, LCI side markers, Extra Enjoyment Package.
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2013, 04:38 PM   #15
williakz
Banned
1
Rep
119
Posts

 
Drives: Lexus LS460
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: AL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jparnes1 View Post
So what does that mean? You will forego all warranty maintenance or repairs? Come on, you'll see a BMW dealer at some point.
"4. I will have the vehicle serviced at my local dealer (you will never see me again)"

The thrust of my approach to the out-of-state dealers is they can cut their margin to the bone since they will never see me again. I'm someone else's problem. Surely that will free them to give me the lowest possible price since their involvement is just pushing paper. Right?
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2013, 04:59 PM   #16
jparnes1
Lieutenant Colonel
jparnes1's Avatar
No_Country
22
Rep
1,786
Posts

 
Drives: 2006 525xi, 2012 Z4 35i
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rochester, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by williakz View Post
"4. I will have the vehicle serviced at my local dealer (you will never see me again)"

The thrust of my approach to the out-of-state dealers is they can cut their margin to the bone since they will never see me again. I'm someone else's problem. Surely that will free them to give me the lowest possible price since their involvement is just pushing paper. Right?
I not sure I understand then. Why will you cost them less money if you never see them again? They lose out on all service on your car and they can't expect you to buy another car from them. So what's their incentive to reduce their profit on your car?
Has this technique as you described worked for you in the past?
__________________
2012 Z4 35i, ED 2/24/2012, Melbourne Red Metallic, Black Leather, Carbon Trim, 6MT, ///M Sport, CW, PP, PS, NAV, CA, LED Angel Eyes, red calipers, pedal covers, stubby antenna, Luxon strut bar, CF engine cover, LCI side markers, Extra Enjoyment Package.
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2013, 06:29 PM   #17
williakz
Banned
1
Rep
119
Posts

 
Drives: Lexus LS460
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: AL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jparnes1 View Post
I not sure I understand then. Why will you cost them less money if you never see them again? They lose out on all service on your car and they can't expect you to buy another car from them. So what's their incentive to reduce their profit on your car?
Has this technique as you described worked for you in the past?
"Lose out on service?" Do you believe 4 years of NO COST service brings in the big bucks to the dealership? You think BMW is paying the dealer $50+/hr for Mr. Goodwrench to put in new wiper blades and change the oil? Service departments have long been simply a necessary evil to support the sales operation. And who says I won't buy another car from them? If their pricing is good and their paper-pushing efficient, I'll be happy to consider them for future purchases. As far as what has worked in the past, yes, I have found that people who are only needed for an hour of paper pushing are amenable to asking less than several thousand dollars in profit. And you?
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2013, 06:35 PM   #18
nicknaz
Brigadier General
United_States
51
Rep
4,208
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 Z4 35i
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Diego CA

iTrader: (0)

do you know if performance center delivery comes out of allocations (like any other customer ordered car for US deliver) or is it like euro delivery where it it doesn't count against allocation?

If it doesn't count against allocation, just skip the preamble and claim performance center delivery. You should be able to find someone who will bite easily enough.

If it comes out of allocations, you need to get lucky and find someone comped on volume or close enough to hit a kicker in their comp plan at the end of the month.

Personally, I found it easier to shop around and keep it simple and be nice. My sense from your post is you are going to come in guns blazing / pounding table and from my experience that isn't the way to go to get a great deal.

For a slow seller like the Z I would gun for something close to Euro delivery invoice. US invoice price + some $ IMHO is leaving dollars on the table based on my experience with an on the lot 2012 last june.
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2013, 06:49 PM   #19
williakz
Banned
1
Rep
119
Posts

 
Drives: Lexus LS460
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: AL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
do you know if performance center delivery comes out of allocations (like any other customer ordered car for US deliver) or is it like euro delivery where it it doesn't count against allocation?

If it doesn't count against allocation, just skip the preamble and claim performance center delivery. You should be able to find someone who will bite easily enough.

If it comes out of allocations, you need to get lucky and find someone comped on volume or close enough to hit a kicker in their comp plan at the end of the month.

Personally, I found it easier to shop around and keep it simple and be nice. My sense from your post is you are going to come in guns blazing / pounding table and from my experience that isn't the way to go to get a great deal.

For a slow seller like the Z I would gun for something close to Euro delivery invoice. US invoice price + some $ IMHO is leaving dollars on the table based on my experience with an on the lot 2012 last june.
Great advice - thanks!

I will ask about PCD and allocation. The dealers I've spoken with to date seem more than willing to go for PCD so I don't believe it has any negative repercussions for them in this unique timing window of zero 2014 inventory on hand.

I AM shopping around, but I am doing so in the internet sales mode where emailed spec is countered by emailed quote in the first round. Then, once all the quotes are in, I'll start whipsawing the dealers to thin the margin. Once it's down to two or three, I'll toss the ball with a low number and see who jumps. If none, I've gone too low and I'll bump my offer until I get a bite.

So you got a deal on dealer inventory of last year's model (i.e. 2012 during 2013 production)? That's par for the course. Unfortunately, for the reasons I gave above, I must go for 2014 production. I do not believe invoice or under is available (different tables). Thanks again.
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2013, 10:16 PM   #20
nicknaz
Brigadier General
United_States
51
Rep
4,208
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 Z4 35i
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Diego CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by williakz View Post
So you got a deal on dealer inventory of last year's model (i.e. 2012 during 2013 production)? That's par for the course. Unfortunately, for the reasons I gave above, I must go for 2014 production. I do not believe invoice or under is available (different tables). Thanks again.
I think it was still 2012 in production when I got the E89. Got it for a few hundred below truecar.com assessment of dealer cost.

Definitely hear you on customizing to your liking. Did that with my wife's 328 in 2011 (took delivery at the dealer I ordered from). Settled for $500 over US invoice since we didn't have time to go performance or euro delivery.

I had better luck with large / super high volume dealers wanting to take the deal for volume (order came out of allocation) and found the smaller dealers were really trying to wring $ out of me.

Agree with your approach conceptually but I think you'll find that once you start emailing detailed specs you will find out really fast who will deal and who won;t. When I heard "why don't you come in...." it was never a good sign.. haha. The places you want on your short list will work up a full quote on the phone in 15 minutes without any hassle. Once they know you are an educated shopper the good sales people will work to give you a sharp deal and try to make margin on someone less educated about the process.
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2013, 10:52 PM   #21
williakz
Banned
1
Rep
119
Posts

 
Drives: Lexus LS460
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: AL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post

I think it was still 2012 in production when I got the E89. Got it for a few hundred below truecar.com assessment of dealer cost.
Yup, my pricing guide shows production of MY2013 commencing July of 2012. Good timing!

Quote:
I had better luck with large / super high volume dealers ...

...once you start emailing detailed specs you will find out really fast who will deal and who won't.

The places you want on your short list will work up a full quote on the phone in 15 minutes without any hassle.
This is just what I'm trying to do. I got three full quotes at around 5% discount from MSRP within two hours today.

On a side note, I used to think the Consumer Reports model (cost plus) was the way to go. Nope. As long as MSRP is held constant, discounts can be directly compared dealer to dealer and it doesn't raise dealer hackles like the "i" word does. You also don't have to get into the war over doc fees (just crank a bit more on the discount). Eventually, after enough trimming they'll begin to scream about cost and invoice all by themselves. I'll just smile pleasantly and go back to talking discounts.

Re volume dealers, since I don't know the dealership characteristics nationwide (PCD cracks dealer network wide open), I'm using dealer volume (email) to my advantage. By hitting up a fair number of dealers, I have no need to address different dealer tactics and/or business models. I should mention that I am totally upfront with all of them. I let them know they are in competition with other dealers (no names mentioned) and that price and price alone will get them the business. I leverage my bargaining power with buying programs from USAA, PenFed, and Costco. Then, let the fur fly...
Appreciate 0
      04-19-2013, 02:06 PM   #22
nicknaz
Brigadier General
United_States
51
Rep
4,208
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 Z4 35i
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Diego CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by williakz View Post
buying programs from USAA, PenFed, and Costco. Then, let the fur fly...
AMEX ZAG is a good one to add to the list.

Let us know how it goes! It is always great as a fellow consumer to hear of others getting a great deal
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:41 AM.




zpost
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST