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      09-16-2010, 03:36 PM   #23
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      09-16-2010, 04:12 PM   #24
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Hey you two ... stop fighting or I'll plant this lil bug in your car next time I'm in Toronto or Calgary hehehe
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      09-16-2010, 08:13 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueZ4AZ View Post
Hey Bluesummer,

Or, here's another idea. Just throwing this out there for ya.....
We get to write whatever we want, because it's our forum, and since you don't own an e89 you don't get to tell us how we can/can't respond to outsider's opinions. ...and if you do try to tell us what to do or make a ridiculous comment, like you did above, we get to do the real laughing.
Does that sound good to you?
+1

It amazes me the people that come out of the woodwork to share the opinions. You never hear from them regarding the mundane stuff, but whenever there's an article - BAM! - they're crawling all over the place like bugs.
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      09-16-2010, 09:03 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Rolf-Dieter View Post
Hey you two ... stop fighting or I'll plant this lil bug in your car next time I'm in Toronto or Calgary hehehe
Rolf, Calgary and Toronto fight, that's what we do.....East vs West, but we become allies when someone tries to throw bugs in our toys.....

just going a little off track on this thread, better quit now
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      09-16-2010, 10:10 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teagueAMX View Post
+1

It amazes me the people that come out of the woodwork to share the opinions. You never hear from them regarding the mundane stuff, but whenever there's an article - BAM! - they're crawling all over the place like bugs.
I think we put 'em in their place. The morons all read our responses to their ridiculous comments and decided it was better not to respond any more.

Last edited by BlueZ4AZ; 09-17-2010 at 08:57 AM.
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      09-17-2010, 01:38 AM   #28
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+1
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      09-17-2010, 11:12 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E60orBust View Post
I think BMW would have sold more Z4M cars if they optioned something other than a manual tranny. Sports coupe it is, but the "mass-market" drives slush boxes. Anyone know what number of E46 M3's were bought with SMG vs 6MT?
I seriously hope you are kidding...

There is a reason that Porshce only offers a true manual in their GT series cars (GT3 (RS)/GT2RS)

If you can't/don't want to drive a manual, then you shouldn't drive a performance car (go for an AMG instead)
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      09-17-2010, 11:23 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWPower06 View Post
I seriously hope you are kidding...

There is a reason that Porshce only offers a true manual in their GT series cars (GT3 (RS)/GT2RS)

If you can't/don't want to drive a manual, then you shouldn't drive a performance car (go for an AMG instead)
I don't think he's kidding.

Ferrari is starting to offer some of their new models with a 7 Speed Dual Clutch Automatic transmissions ONLY, with NO OPTION for a Manual Transmission. The 458 Italia is one of them. Since we all know Ferrari's are "performance cars", can you provide any kind of explanation why they are not even offering a manual transmission on some of their models?

Last edited by BlueZ4AZ; 09-17-2010 at 11:29 AM.
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      09-17-2010, 11:25 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWPower06 View Post
I seriously hope you are kidding...

There is a reason that Porshce only offers a true manual in their GT series cars (GT3 (RS)/GT2RS)

If you can't/don't want to drive a manual, then you shouldn't drive a performance car (go for an AMG instead)

Lulz AMG
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      09-17-2010, 11:26 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueZ4AZ View Post
I'm pretty sure he's not kidding.
Can you explain why Ferrari is starting to offer some of their new models with a 7 speed Dual Clutch Automatic and NO OPTION for a Manual transmission?
Ferrari is more of a driver's car than Porsche?

I'll go ahead and answer that for you, no it is not. The new GT2 RS, not only spanked the 458 at the ring, but also the Enzo. You want a true driver's car you always buy manual.

When was the last time you actually saw someone drive their Ferrari? They are for old people who have money...
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      09-17-2010, 11:49 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWPower06 View Post
Ferrari is more of a driver's car than Porsche?

I'll go ahead and answer that for you, no it is not. The new GT2 RS, not only spanked the 458 at the ring, but also the Enzo. You want a true driver's car you always buy manual.

When was the last time you actually saw someone drive their Ferrari? They are for old people who have money...



Everyone knows for a fact that Ferrari is a true performance car. There really IS NO disputing it, or need to defend that statement any further. I'm not even going to dignify the comment about them being a "drivers car".

There are still people like you that prefer a manual, and that is OK. You are entitle to your own personal opinion. So if your definition of a "true drivers car" aka "performance car" is one that has manual, then no one is going to take your opinion away from you. However, not everyone agrees with your opinion.

The only point I intended to, and successfully made, was to bring to light the fact that there are "performance cars" without manual transmissions. So there are, in fact, people out there driving performace cars without manual transmissions and they consciously made the decision to do so.

To answer my own question.....Ferrari is a smart company, so they make smart decisions. They are not offering manual transmissions on some models, because the same demand is just not there anymore, given the fact there is alternative technology. Ferrari know there are performance car drivers that have a totally different opinion than you, and want to drive the dual clutch.

The though that a car has to have a manaul transmission to be a true performance car is fading, FAST. There are still some holdouts though.

Last edited by BlueZ4AZ; 09-17-2010 at 12:10 PM.
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      09-17-2010, 03:48 PM   #34
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Hmmm ? let me see now, I think the most advanced performance cars are the ones that go around the F1 circuits, really fast...but I only see the drivers pushing a little button on the steering wheel to change gears ...I'm confused

Marketing and market share are what sells transmissions, not what is the best or worst in a particular car
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      09-17-2010, 04:16 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWPower06 View Post
Ferrari is more of a driver's car than Porsche?

I'll go ahead and answer that for you, no it is not. The new GT2 RS, not only spanked the 458 at the ring, but also the Enzo. You want a true driver's car you always buy manual.

When was the last time you actually saw someone drive their Ferrari? They are for old people who have money...
Porsches are solid performance cars and with each iteration they move solidly into the supercar ranks - well deserved. But don't be blinded by name tags.

Putting things into perspective - the 458 in stock form is breaking many of the Enzo records, which in its day was a massive supercar. Give Ferrari a little time to come out with the 458 Scud or better yet the Challenge, which we know are on the way in a year ot two (the 458 is a new model) and I think you'll have a better apples to apples comparison.

Now to your point about price - look on the net and you'll see that 2010 Porsche 977 GT2 RS is running about 199,500 Euros base, and an out the door price of 237,578 Euros. Gee, that's 458 price territory isn't?

As far as the transmission is concerned, you need to frequent the ‘tube more often because you’d see that a true sequential transmission is not being fitted to the RS in stock trim, but that what they’re using on the track. For the uninformed, a sequential transmission shift lever has only two motions – forward and backwards. And, they are louder than HELL with straight cut gears. Additionally, f1 and the like are in a different league all together so there’s no comparison between the cute little manual transmission you see in a street car, Porsche included. An f1 transmssion alone costs more than your typical Bimmer.

A DCT is as close as 99 percent of the human race will ever come to a racing transmission. Check your facts before you blab.
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Last edited by teagueAMX; 09-17-2010 at 04:53 PM.
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      09-17-2010, 04:24 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWPower06 View Post
Ferrari is more of a driver's car than Porsche?

I'll go ahead and answer that for you, no it is not. The new GT2 RS, not only spanked the 458 at the ring, but also the Enzo. You want a true driver's car you always buy manual.

When was the last time you actually saw someone drive their Ferrari? They are for old people who have money...
I guess all the F1 drivers should hang up their gloves. "True manual" is old school technology. DCT's/DSG's are faster and have less parasitic loss than a tradtional gear grinder. What's not to like?
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      09-17-2010, 05:22 PM   #37
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There is no way I can upshift as fast as a DCT let alone a step. Downshifts too. Plus the DCT doesnt lose boost/power in between shifts as much as a manual as many logs show. This is why I think BMW's performance figures 0-60 etc are conservative for the DCT 35i vs the manual.
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      09-17-2010, 06:00 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alext View Post
There is no way I can upshift as fast as a DCT let alone a step. Downshifts too. Plus the DCT doesnt lose boost/power in between shifts as much as a manual as many logs show. This is why I think BMW's performance figures 0-60 etc are conservative for the DCT 35i vs the manual.
Since there is no possibility for driver error with DCT/Launch Control, and since BMW most likely compares the best Manual time (which may only occur once every 5 runs, due to driver error) to the best DCT time (which occurs on every run), it would seem to make sense that 4 out of 5 runs, the DCT would outrun the Manual to 60 mph by a greater margin than the published BMW figures.

4 out of 5 is just a good guess. Could be more or less.

Disclaimer - This does not mean I think that the e89 manual is any less of a car than the e89 DCT. It is just simply not as fast to 60 than the DCT, which we all already knew anyway.

Last edited by BlueZ4AZ; 09-17-2010 at 06:07 PM.
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      09-17-2010, 06:23 PM   #39
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I am certainly sold on the DCT. Maybe I'm just a klutz and never could heal/toe or rev match a manual but the DCT is great. Add a twisty road and it is leaps and bounds easier to shift with the DCT paddles than a manual.
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      09-18-2010, 01:07 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richard in NC View Post
I am certainly sold on the DCT. Maybe I'm just a klutz and never could heal/toe or rev match a manual but the DCT is great. Add a twisty road and it is leaps and bounds easier to shift with the DCT paddles than a manual.
I find the paddles a bit "clunky" and the mechanism a bit "cheap" or "fragile" when in use.

I feel the looseness of the buttons - mainly on the upchange (ie the pull) to be a bit disconcerting through my fingertips.
I talks me out of changing that way - I always end up using the stick to change instead.
A pity, as it means I have to be in sports / manual mode, and cant just override the auto as and when I want to.

Mind you, this is the ONLY downside of the DCT in my opinion.
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      09-18-2010, 03:25 AM   #41
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Nice car but the Z4 M Coupé is so much nicer in every way.
are you crazy? Or on drugs?
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      09-18-2010, 03:25 AM   #42
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Oh no, not this debate again. Nobody's ever claimed DCT isn't quicker than MT. Nobody's (hopefully) ever claimed DCT isn't technically superior to MT. But some of us don't measure things in just raw speed. For some of us the latest isn't automatically the greatest.

Let's say next year BMW comes up with a steering system that drives the corners for you. It always uses the optimal speed and driving line making you look like a driving god. You don't get a steering wheel, just paddles for left and right. It's easier, faster, and you lose less speed in corners. What's not to like? You'd be a luddite to still want a steering wheel, right? Or would you miss the control? The feeling that it's you who's driving the car?

I know I'm exaggerating, because such a system (impossible to make, I know) would not be comparable in terms of level of control to the DCT vs. MT issue. But I'm exaggerating to get my point across. No matter how great the DCT is, there is no denying that you will give up some control to a computer with it. Some of us don't mind it or feel that they get more than they give, but there's also the other camp.

Mentioning F1 in this context is a bit funny of course, because F1 has never been as boring as it is today. One could argue that because the cars are so technically advanced, driver skills do not play such a big role anymore. In the early days of turbocharged F1 cars with turbo lag and no traction control, nailing the corner exit separated the men from the boys. Sure, today's F1 car is a technological marvel, but I'd still rather watch the old school cars. At least they'd be racing.

Ok, rant over.
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      09-18-2010, 03:29 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueZ4AZ View Post
Everyone knows for a fact that Ferrari is a true performance car. There really IS NO disputing it, or need to defend that statement any further. I'm not even going to dignify the comment about them being a "drivers car".

There are still people like you that prefer a manual, and that is OK. You are entitle to your own personal opinion. So if your definition of a "true drivers car" aka "performance car" is one that has manual, then no one is going to take your opinion away from you. However, not everyone agrees with your opinion.

The only point I intended to, and successfully made, was to bring to light the fact that there are "performance cars" without manual transmissions. So there are, in fact, people out there driving performace cars without manual transmissions and they consciously made the decision to do so.

To answer my own question.....Ferrari is a smart company, so they make smart decisions. They are not offering manual transmissions on some models, because the same demand is just not there anymore, given the fact there is alternative technology. Ferrari know there are performance car drivers that have a totally different opinion than you, and want to drive the dual clutch.

The though that a car has to have a manaul transmission to be a true performance car is fading, FAST. There are still some holdouts though.
there is nothing more fun, than keeping the motor on the boil, and bam, bam, bam, through the gears on a dct transmission. Manuals are old technology, plain and simple.
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      09-18-2010, 09:03 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Stig 2 View Post
I find the paddles a bit "clunky" and the mechanism a bit "cheap" or "fragile" when in use.

I feel the looseness of the buttons - mainly on the upchange (ie the pull) to be a bit disconcerting through my fingertips.
I talks me out of changing that way - I always end up using the stick to change instead.
A pity, as it means I have to be in sports / manual mode, and cant just override the auto as and when I want to.

Mind you, this is the ONLY downside of the DCT in my opinion.
Have you tried upshifting from the back side using the middle and ring fingers? With my hands at 9 and 3, my thumb easily hits the downshift and my middle and ring finger hit the lower part of the upshift. I don't fell any clunkiness or sloppiness to the paddles. The only time I ever shift with the stick is the 1-2 shift when I'm leaving a light, especially when turning.
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