Does your engine also ticks after a cold start?

zEdP · 07-11-2009, 03:11 AM

Hi,

My 30i has a ticking sound when the engine is still cold. It starts after 5 - 10 seconds when the engine is started. After 2 minutes it disappears. Now this ticking is not that loud, but it can be heard when driving slowly <40km/h (windows closed).

I have a question for the 23i and 30i owners. Does your engine ticks also after a cold start?

I assume that this is some kind of temporal oil starvation of the hydraulic valves stuff. So I checked the oil level. Could it be that the electrical oil pump and oil pre heater have a low flow capacity, so it can take 2 minutes to have enough oil at the top side of the engine.

siscobmw · 07-11-2009, 04:40 AM

also here in Italy 23i and 30i has the same sound ....it's usual.....I was told by 2 different dealers that it happens on about every valvetronic engine..

I have to say that I can hear that tappety sound on my car only when idling...

Francesco

juhap · 07-11-2009, 12:05 PM

Hopefully not the same issue as this one:
http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271500

I don't know how much the engines have changed since E86 (apart from the 35i of course).

zEdP · 07-11-2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juhap

Hopefully not the same issue as this one:
http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271500

I don't know how much the engines have changed since E86 (apart from the 35i of course).

Sounds like the problem. I hope BMW has fixed the issue of the N52B30 engine, so it ticks only the first minutes after a cold start.

I once onwed a E36/6. It ticked only ~4 seconds after a very cold winter start, but with 125.000 miles on the clock, I didn't mind. But my 30i with less then 500 miles on the clock, is a different story. I can not imagine that this ticking is harmless to the engine.

Ed

teagueAMX · 07-11-2009, 03:43 PM

Those videos almost sound like a solid lifter valve train but I wouldn't let it bother you too much. A while back I watched a Topgear video for an M6 test drive, and the driver laughingly said the engine sounded like a bucket of bolts when it was cold.

But the engine also rev'ed effortlessly to around 8500 RPM over and over again with no problems.

I read the entire link and watched the videos. The OP of the referenced links probably doesn't realize it's normal for an engine's oil pressure to bleed down when the engine is shut off, and hence it's mechanically driven oil pump, isn't running. There are literally hundreds of places within the engine for the oil to escape normally and drain back into the oil pan for recirculation.

The engine block consists of oil passages that are pressurized when the engine is running. Oil squirts all over the place because it's pressurized to around 20-30 pounds per square inch (PSI) at idle. At higher RPM's the pressure can easily reach 60 PSI (or higher).

Oil typically gets delivered to the crankshaft main bearing and rod bearing assemblies first because they have the most stress. These assemblies have very close tolerances, so the pressurized oil creates a frictionless barrier between the machined surfaces before is squirts out and goes back in the pan. The same holds true of the other parts, including the valve lifters.

Keep in mind this is normal and there's nothing to prevent the oil from doing this. Today a lot of engines are designed to be very quite but BMW's VANOS valve train assemble is quite complicated and likely accounts for the ticking sounds.

The Japanese makes maintain the highest machine tolerances but in racing the tolerances are kept a little bit looser for less friction. As long as the sound goes away after the engine warms up and/or you've driven it for awhile, you're OK.

siscobmw · 07-12-2009, 05:35 AM

on older cars with over 100k miles hidraulic tappets need doing, because they cannot compensate valve clearance anymore....I remember when old e21 323i suffered from piston slap when cold......but it's not the case....just gone for a 10 miles trip: strted the car and with my stop watch I registered 1 minute and 34 before the ticking noise went off....It's normal for me....
Francesco from Italy

zEdP · 10-26-2009, 01:23 PM

Today I dropped my 30i at the dealer to fix the 'humming' fuel pump. I also asked to check out the ticking engine sound.

Around afternoon they called and said: There is a fix for the ticking sound, we need to reprogram the engine MCU but we can't. Your car is missing the standard radio unit (I replaced it with a Pioneer unit), so we can't program the engine MCU.

Has anyone experience with programming the MCU. Is this the case? Is there a work around?

It is just a missing CAN bus device and should not block any other communication or is the radio unit so vital for the system?

EdP

siscobmw · 10-27-2009, 10:58 AM

there's not anymore canbus system for media device, but the MOST....optic fiber and a lot of fuss alla round the car.....so you have to put on the original radio to update internal system....
Here in Italy there's no this fix for the ticking sound...I have also to say that now the ticking comes on occasionally, not at every cold start.
Francesco

zEdP · 10-27-2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siscobmw

there's not anymore canbus system for media device, but the MOST....optic fiber and a lot of fuss alla round the car.....so you have to put on the original radio to update internal system....
Here in Italy there's no this fix for the ticking sound...I have also to say that now the ticking comes on occasionally, not at every cold start.
Francesco

Hi Siscobmw,

I personally think that there is not a 'program fix'. I can not imagine that there is an update after only 3 months. The first version of the N52 engine was released in 2004. And the ticking sound is also known for some years. But I will ask if they print out the service bulletin about program fix.

About the CAN bus, the standard audio system still communicates via can bus. But also other components use it. The optical stuff is used by the professional audio systems (11 and 14 speaker systems) to connect head unit and digital multi channel amplifiers.

I think to start a new car project, re-connect my standard radio and monitor the CAN bus data and reverse engineer it. Then I could design a small module and make software to enable the steering wheel control functionality and get audio warning signals again. I could use the ATmega32C1 Automotive microcontroller. Something to think about....

zEdP · 10-31-2009, 04:33 AM

About the 'program fix' of the MCU, I asked the service station if they could give me more info about it. But it seems there is no software fix. They only wanted to reprogram it.

If the bleeding procedure fixes the issue (http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271500), than this is no life duration thread. So n0 issue, it only sounds cheap the first 2 minutes.

EdP

siscobmw · 10-31-2009, 05:23 AM

those engines ,looking at videos,are way louder than mine,way way louder....
mine is quiet, anyway I will do what that bullettins says.
Thank you so much!
Francesco

siscobmw · 11-24-2009, 03:45 AM

today I have to go to my dealer and I let them hear the ticking noise, it's not far from home and with cold engine maybe I cag take the car there with the engine still ticking....then I will see if they can deal with this noise...
Francesco

Mick70 · 11-24-2009, 05:21 AM

Have them update the motor electronics (if the car is older than 10/2009) - I had cold starting problems in my 23i as well (noisy, stuttering and weak motor, "fog"), that fully disappeared with the update.

Best regards

Mick

Roadstergal · 11-24-2009, 08:46 AM

I had the same problem with my last Z4, the '06, and the service advisor told me that the car had to be bled to stop the ticking. After he did that it did stop for a while. He told me that it is inherant with the BMW engines and would have to be done periodically. Everytime I took my car in for service, it needed to be done and the ticking was gone for a while afterwards. He also told me that if I took it on the highway and opened it up that it would also help.

I have noticed the same ticking on my 35i as soon as I first brought it home and pulled in my driveway on Saturday.

siscobmw · 11-25-2009, 03:19 AM

my dealer told me that it's normal, and there's a TSB about earlier N52, not those new engoines....and this ticking noise was not only related to climate and engine temperature conditions....it also increased with hot engine and more mileage....
Anyway installed a new software and told me to keep in touch if ticking gets worse.
but I do not have to worry.anyway they can use warranty for everything with oil inside...

07-11-2009, 03:11 AM	#1
zEdP Ed 18 Rep 298 Posts Drives: Z4 sDrive30i Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Netherlands iTrader: (0)	Does your engine also ticks after a cold start? [UPDATE]Fix MCU reprogram fails! Hi, My 30i has a ticking sound when the engine is still cold. It starts after 5 - 10 seconds when the engine is started. After 2 minutes it disappears. Now this ticking is not that loud, but it can be heard when driving slowly <40km/h (windows closed). I have a question for the 23i and 30i owners. Does your engine ticks also after a cold start? I assume that this is some kind of temporal oil starvation of the hydraulic valves stuff. So I checked the oil level. Could it be that the electrical oil pump and oil pre heater have a low flow capacity, so it can take 2 minutes to have enough oil at the top side of the engine. Last edited by zEdP; 10-26-2009 at 01:25 PM..
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07-11-2009, 04:40 AM	#2
siscobmw freude am fahren ....scheiden freude... 17 Rep 299 Posts Drives: Z4 Sdrive30i tiefseeblau Join Date: May 2009 Location: Italy iTrader: (0)	also here in Italy 23i and 30i has the same sound ....it's usual.....I was told by 2 different dealers that it happens on about every valvetronic engine.. I have to say that I can hear that tappety sound on my car only when idling... Francesco
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07-11-2009, 12:05 PM	#3
juhap Lieutenant 14 Rep 530 Posts Drives: sDrive35i Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Finland iTrader: (0)	Hopefully not the same issue as this one: http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271500 I don't know how much the engines have changed since E86 (apart from the 35i of course).
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07-11-2009, 03:43 PM	#5
teagueAMX Colonel 62 Rep 2,087 Posts Drives: Some are road worthy Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: So Cal, USA iTrader: (0)	Those videos almost sound like a solid lifter valve train but I wouldn't let it bother you too much. A while back I watched a Topgear video for an M6 test drive, and the driver laughingly said the engine sounded like a bucket of bolts when it was cold. But the engine also rev'ed effortlessly to around 8500 RPM over and over again with no problems. I read the entire link and watched the videos. The OP of the referenced links probably doesn't realize it's normal for an engine's oil pressure to bleed down when the engine is shut off, and hence it's mechanically driven oil pump, isn't running. There are literally hundreds of places within the engine for the oil to escape normally and drain back into the oil pan for recirculation. The engine block consists of oil passages that are pressurized when the engine is running. Oil squirts all over the place because it's pressurized to around 20-30 pounds per square inch (PSI) at idle. At higher RPM's the pressure can easily reach 60 PSI (or higher). Oil typically gets delivered to the crankshaft main bearing and rod bearing assemblies first because they have the most stress. These assemblies have very close tolerances, so the pressurized oil creates a frictionless barrier between the machined surfaces before is squirts out and goes back in the pan. The same holds true of the other parts, including the valve lifters. Keep in mind this is normal and there's nothing to prevent the oil from doing this. Today a lot of engines are designed to be very quite but BMW's VANOS valve train assemble is quite complicated and likely accounts for the ticking sounds. The Japanese makes maintain the highest machine tolerances but in racing the tolerances are kept a little bit looser for less friction. As long as the sound goes away after the engine warms up and/or you've driven it for awhile, you're OK. Last edited by teagueAMX; 11-25-2009 at 05:12 AM..
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07-12-2009, 05:35 AM	#6
siscobmw freude am fahren ....scheiden freude... 17 Rep 299 Posts Drives: Z4 Sdrive30i tiefseeblau Join Date: May 2009 Location: Italy iTrader: (0)	on older cars with over 100k miles hidraulic tappets need doing, because they cannot compensate valve clearance anymore....I remember when old e21 323i suffered from piston slap when cold......but it's not the case....just gone for a 10 miles trip: strted the car and with my stop watch I registered 1 minute and 34 before the ticking noise went off....It's normal for me.... Francesco from Italy
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10-26-2009, 01:23 PM	#7
zEdP Ed 18 Rep 298 Posts Drives: Z4 sDrive30i Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Netherlands iTrader: (0)	Engine ticking FIX, MCU programming fails because radio unit is non standard Today I dropped my 30i at the dealer to fix the 'humming' fuel pump. I also asked to check out the ticking engine sound. Around afternoon they called and said: There is a fix for the ticking sound, we need to reprogram the engine MCU but we can't. Your car is missing the standard radio unit (I replaced it with a Pioneer unit), so we can't program the engine MCU. Has anyone experience with programming the MCU. Is this the case? Is there a work around? It is just a missing CAN bus device and should not block any other communication or is the radio unit so vital for the system? EdP
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10-27-2009, 10:58 AM	#8
siscobmw freude am fahren ....scheiden freude... 17 Rep 299 Posts Drives: Z4 Sdrive30i tiefseeblau Join Date: May 2009 Location: Italy iTrader: (0)	there's not anymore canbus system for media device, but the MOST....optic fiber and a lot of fuss alla round the car.....so you have to put on the original radio to update internal system.... Here in Italy there's no this fix for the ticking sound...I have also to say that now the ticking comes on occasionally, not at every cold start. Francesco
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10-31-2009, 04:33 AM	#10
zEdP Ed 18 Rep 298 Posts Drives: Z4 sDrive30i Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Netherlands iTrader: (0)	About the 'program fix' of the MCU, I asked the service station if they could give me more info about it. But it seems there is no software fix. They only wanted to reprogram it. If the bleeding procedure fixes the issue (http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271500), than this is no life duration thread. So n0 issue, it only sounds cheap the first 2 minutes. EdP
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10-31-2009, 05:23 AM	#11
siscobmw freude am fahren ....scheiden freude... 17 Rep 299 Posts Drives: Z4 Sdrive30i tiefseeblau Join Date: May 2009 Location: Italy iTrader: (0)	those engines ,looking at videos,are way louder than mine,way way louder.... mine is quiet, anyway I will do what that bullettins says. Thank you so much! Francesco
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11-24-2009, 03:45 AM	#12
siscobmw freude am fahren ....scheiden freude... 17 Rep 299 Posts Drives: Z4 Sdrive30i tiefseeblau Join Date: May 2009 Location: Italy iTrader: (0)	today I have to go to my dealer and I let them hear the ticking noise, it's not far from home and with cold engine maybe I cag take the car there with the engine still ticking....then I will see if they can deal with this noise... Francesco
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11-24-2009, 05:21 AM	#13
Mick70 Private First Class 9 Rep 157 Posts Drives: Z4 sdrive35i (before: 23i) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Germany iTrader: (0)	Have them update the motor electronics (if the car is older than 10/2009) - I had cold starting problems in my 23i as well (noisy, stuttering and weak motor, "fog"), that fully disappeared with the update. Best regards Mick
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11-24-2009, 08:46 AM	#14
Roadstergal First Lieutenant 27 Rep 360 Posts Drives: 2010 Z4 35i Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: USA - East Coast iTrader: (0)	I had the same problem with my last Z4, the '06, and the service advisor told me that the car had to be bled to stop the ticking. After he did that it did stop for a while. He told me that it is inherant with the BMW engines and would have to be done periodically. Everytime I took my car in for service, it needed to be done and the ticking was gone for a while afterwards. He also told me that if I took it on the highway and opened it up that it would also help. I have noticed the same ticking on my 35i as soon as I first brought it home and pulled in my driveway on Saturday.
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11-25-2009, 03:19 AM	#15
siscobmw freude am fahren ....scheiden freude... 17 Rep 299 Posts Drives: Z4 Sdrive30i tiefseeblau Join Date: May 2009 Location: Italy iTrader: (0)	my dealer told me that it's normal, and there's a TSB about earlier N52, not those new engoines....and this ticking noise was not only related to climate and engine temperature conditions....it also increased with hot engine and more mileage.... Anyway installed a new software and told me to keep in touch if ticking gets worse. but I do not have to worry.anyway they can use warranty for everything with oil inside...
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