M3 to Z4?

[templarklimek]

Gents,

With my owners choice less almost up I'm tempted to try out the Z4. I LOVE the M3 with the S65 but would enjoy a smaller lighter driving experience.

A few questions please:

A. Does the Z4 offer what I'm wanting? a light more nimble car than the M3
B. Stock the M3 is superior, but an ESS stage 2 with intake/exhaust offer a more powerful or close to M3 levels..
C. Z4 lighter than M3?
D. Upgradability, engine, turbo's even, intercooler, brakes etc.

I wish BMW made a hardtop "M" version, sigh. I want a manual so no IS version.

Also, I've read the N54 is more mod friendly than the N55.

Thank you for your advice and input!

[keepittrill]

You're not going to want anything but the IS, and even then it's hard to justify the car because it costs more than it should. Sadly, the Z4 is a car that's also heavier than it should be. In regards to power, obviously the 35i is twin turboed, so you have the opportunity for an ECU tune. I guess you could do bolt ons and get an Eisenmann Race exhaust too. You probably still won't safely get M3 power out of a 35i though. I think the 35i is running 305 BHP right now. I mean, maybe you could get the power but I don't think it would be cheap. As for handling, the car feels pretty heavy when you're driving it on normal, but it gets a lot more responsive and "nimble" when put in sport/sport+. It's also common knowledge that the stock RFTs are utter shit. Everyone seems to trade for Michel Pilot Supersports

[templarklimek]

Unfortunately the IS doesn't offer a manual transmission option, otherwise it would be a must.

Looking at ESS website:

Intake/downpipes/exhaust and stage 2 tune yield around 415hp? I could live with that.

But does the Z4 offer the more light, intimate driving experience I would like to have?

I've never had the pleasure of driving one, hopefully this week I can.

Thanks.

[R1robot]

curb weight on a 35i manual is 3450 lbs

[keepittrill]

Originally Posted by templarklimek

Unfortunately the IS doesn't offer a manual transmission option, otherwise it would be a must.

Looking at ESS website:

Intake/downpipes/exhaust and stage 2 tune yield around 415hp? I could live with that.

But does the Z4 offer the more light, intimate driving experience I would like to have?

I've never had the pleasure of driving one, hopefully this week I can.

Thanks.

As I've never driven the M3, I couldn't tell you. I'm sure ESS offers a good tune, but I'm always wary of the figures all these companies post. As BMW is conservative with figures, tuning companies are sometimes excessive. Have you looked at a TT RS? They're rare, and seem to be posting 4 second 0-60s stock.

On an unrelated not, you're an Assassins creed fan? Judging by the "Templar" in your username.

[templarklimek]

I've taken a real hard look at the TTRS, good call. My other car is a mini JCW coupe(2 seater). It has made me appreciate a smaller more nimble car thus the consideration of the Z4 or TTRS.

I just admire the Templar's(historical). The fiction that has arisen around them is great entertainment though..

[keepittrill]

Originally Posted by templarklimek

I've taken a real hard look at the TTRS, good call. My other car is a mini JCW coupe(2 seater). It has made me appreciate a smaller more nimble car thus the consideration of the Z4 or TTRS.

I just admire the Templar's(historical). The fiction that has arisen around them is great entertainment though..

Even though this is a BMW forum and I have a Z4, I'm going to push you towards the TT RS! The performance honestly can't be denied. You really get your moneys worth out of that car!

[Asbjorn]

Originally Posted by templarklimek

Gents,

With my owners choice less almost up I'm tempted to try out the Z4. I LOVE the M3 with the S65 but would enjoy a smaller lighter driving experience.

A few questions please:

A. Does the Z4 offer what I'm wanting? a light more nimble car than the M3
B. Stock the M3 is superior, but an ESS stage 2 with intake/exhaust offer a more powerful or close to M3 levels..
C. Z4 lighter than M3?
D. Upgradability, engine, turbo's even, intercooler, brakes etc.

I wish BMW made a hardtop "M" version, sigh. I want a manual so no IS version.

Also, I've read the N54 is more mod friendly than the N55.

Thank you for your advice and input!

The Z4 with MT weighs about the same as a 1M and M3 - ie just below 1600kg. It is not a smaller driving experience. A cayman is!

The Z4 is a roadster. It gives you the roadster driving experience. A cayman or M3 doesn't. For instance, in a roadster you sit further back and looses some of the sense of what the front end is doing. Cornering and doing slaloms does not feel as intimate as in a car where you sit closer to the front wheels (which you do in a mid-engined 2-seater or regular 4-seater). This is because the rear wheels follow a lazier and shorter path compared to the front wheels, especially in tight slaloms, as they can't turn. On the other hand, if you like to push your car into over-steer, it will feel the most intimate in a roadster like the Z4. I believe most owners in here can remember the first time the rear wheels broke traction in their Z4. It is really a full body experience! But then sadly, most Z4 owners probably don't even know how to turn DSC fully off.

Originally Posted by keepittrill

You're not going to want anything but the IS, and even then it's hard to justify the car because it costs more than it should.

No, because OP wants to tune the car, and the 35i and 35is are equally tuneable.

Originally Posted by keepittrill

Sadly, the Z4 is a car that's also heavier than it should be.

It is much lighter than the M3 convertible, and I dont know of any hard top convertibles that are significantly less heavy. Even the soft-top F-type and 1-series are not. The Z4 is the lightest convertible in the BMW line-up.

Originally Posted by keepittrill

I guess you could do bolt ons and get an Eisenmann Race exhaust too. You probably still won't safely get M3 power out of a 35i though.

You do not need anything but an ECU tune to safely get M3 power out of a 35i. You need to try and drive one to understand what the turbos does to the power at lower rpms in a 35i.

Originally Posted by keepittrill

I think the 35i is running 305 BHP right now. I mean, maybe you could get the power but I don't think it would be cheap.

What kind of tuning is cheaper than ECU tuning?

Originally Posted by keepittrill

As for handling, the car feels pretty heavy when you're driving it on normal, but it gets a lot more responsive and "nimble" when put in sport/sport+. It's also common knowledge that the stock RFTs are utter shit. Everyone seems to trade for Michel Pilot Supersports

How do you know when you haven't driven a 35i with MT which is what OP is asking about?

Anyway, while we are on the topic of speculation, I would like to recommend the non adaptive M-sport suspension for someone who likes the M3 sport/comfort compromise. Because if it isn't hard enough, you will have to go aftermarket and non-adaptive anyway. And the adaptive suspension defaults into comfort if you turn DSC off.

Also, I would probably try non-RFT PSS on 19" to get something which is almost as hard as RFTs on 18"/17", which is what the suspension was optimized for from the factory.

And then one last word on the Z4. The brakes and cooling system are not meant for serious track use. They will over heat much sooner than in an M3 or 1M.

[keepittrill]

I actually have driven a 35i with a MT and with the DCT. So calm down hahha You also mixed my words and yours, so that's a little confusing. Fix your quotes lol and you're speaking of speculation, when you're speculating about what I have and haven't driven. I was simply saying that everyone here complains about the RFTs and everyone "seems" to switch to the PSSs. Also, I said the "Z4 is a car that is heavier than it should be." I wasn't comparing it with the M3, was I? I was simply saying that it should be lighter. I've also heard people saying ESS tunes are "unsafe" and will void your warranty. (That's from the M3 forum) Apparently, insurance won't cover an accident on a tuned car. That's what I've heard.

[itf joegun]

I did the same decision. I currently own a M3 6 MT and have a 35is on order. I will pick it up next week in the Welt. As the OP I really really made me a mind about it.

In the end, I decided to go for the Z because I want to have a convertible and from my Alpina RS I liked open driving so much. Now after the Z has a steel roof I can drive it the whole year, not possible with the Alpina (it is based on a Z4 E85). Regarding DKG, I never was a fan of the auto trannys but after driving it, it harmonizes perfectly with the engine. Completely different than in the M3 where I had it in the M3 drivers training the whole day. I did not like it with the NA engine, perhaps because of the missing torque at low revs.

I had the M3 for three years now and I really liked it. But now after the decision for the Z I see some points for myself which I do not like. It is sharp, so sharp that it sometimes hurts if you just want to drive from A to B. It is fast, always, and this is anoying sometimes. It also is unconfortable, even in comfort mode. I also have that sound problem: If I want to hear the engine from the inside I have to have another exhaust, wich will in the end be anoying for my neighbours in the morning. So in the end it seems, the M3 has had his time for me, but now it is time to move on...

If OP feels similar, than he will not regret the decision. If it is a young racer, go for the M3 with 6MT, that is my advice...

[Nkc]

I recall some members here that had both cars, search for flpnout's post. I think your best replies will be from those guys.

To answer your questions with my knowledge:
A. Does the Z4 offer what I'm wanting? a light more nimble car than the M3

Probably not as nimble as you might think. Go for a test drive while driving in with your M3. That's the best way to compare it.

B. Stock the M3 is superior, but an ESS stage 2 with intake/exhaust offer a more powerful or close to M3 levels..

The M3 will always be superior in terms of handling and track usage. Any 35i with a simple ESS stage 2 will rock an M3 any day on the straight and for street "usage". Its been done many time personally. This little devil is quicker than a lot of people think.

C. Z4 lighter than M3?
Probably around the same. Its no lightweight.

D. Upgradability, engine, turbo's even, intercooler, brakes etc.
Very upgradably with significant gains due to turbos.

I wish BMW made a hardtop "M" version, sigh. I want a manual so no IS version.

I've always enjoyed my cars (especially sports cars) in manual too but this DCT i'm really amazed with and is much quicker than manual.

BTW, well done Asbjorn. I couldn't agree with anything keepittrill said, I'll just leave it there before I insult this kid again.

[Alpha_Zulu]

Originally Posted by Asbjorn

I believe most owners in here can remember the first time the rear wheels broke traction in their Z4. It is really a full body experience!

The first time I disabled the DSC and Traction completely and broke the traction with the rear wheels, I was grinning the entire way. It was like a drug I couldn't get enough of.

Originally Posted by Asbjorn

It is much lighter than the M3 convertible, and I dont know of any hard top convertibles that are significantly less heavy. Even the soft-top F-type and 1-series are not. The Z4 is the lightest convertible in the BMW line-up.
You do not need anything but an ECU tune to safely get M3 power out of a 35i. You need to try and drive one to understand what the turbos does to the power at lower rpms in a 35i.

You are correct good sir.

Originally Posted by keepittrill

Sadly, the Z4 is a car that's also heavier than it should be.

What do you mean heavier than it should be? Most two door convertibles are heavier than the Z4 (curb weight on the Z4 is 3549 lbs)

Meanwhile the M3 Convertible's curb weight is 4145 lbs, which is a difference of almost 600 pounds.

The M3 coupe's weight sits at 3704 lbs. So even when we compare apple to oranges (Coupe VS Roadster) the Z4 is still lighter.

Originally Posted by keepittrill

In regards to power, obviously the 35i is twin turboed, so you have the opportunity for an ECU tune. I guess you could do bolt ons and get an Eisenmann Race exhaust too. You probably still won't safely get M3 power out of a 35i though.

Yes you can and will. The 414 HP figure is to the crank, not the wheels. So the real number to the wheels is going to be less than that. Once you do let's say tune, intake, down pipes, intercooler, and exhaust, a Z4 would be right there if not exceeding the M3 in both HP and torque. (In all honestly I think it would easily exceed)

Originally Posted by keepittrill

I think the 35i is running 305 BHP right now.

It's 335 HP/332 pounds of torque.
While the M3 has 414 HP/ 295 torque. M3 has more HP but it lacks in the torque compared the Z4. I've driven both and the Z4 definitely has way more torque in the lower revs. And once you throw a tune on their, it doesn't even compare to the M3 (As far as torque is concerned). So in the real world, let's say you need to make a lane change and pass someone on the high way, the Z4 would offer quicker response and acceleration. While you could argue if you wanted to mash the foot down on the pedal and red line it, the M3 would reach it's top speed quicker.


To the OP; the tl; dr version is this. There is no "best" or "better" in this regard. We're dealing with finely tuned German machines. Just drive what you think is fun and what YOU like. If it's not something you're not happy with, then don't get it.

Oh and BTW OP, if you're really dead set on a MT, the Z4 35i comes with an N55. Only the 35is comes in N54. Just to clarify.

[ManiacGT]

Certainly 'light' and 'nimble' are not how I'd describe my e89. Heavy and uncertain is how I'd describe it. If you want top down cruising, with power in a straight line, e89 is fine. If you want handling, look elsewhere, its not great, and I agree with all the journo's out there, the handling and ride are both compromised. I love my car, but this is its worst flaw.

[Alext]

My Z4 35is with stock 19 inch RFT's handles and rides better than my 135i with 18 inch RFTs. That's my opinion...with 'proper' tires and a decent suspension upgrade the Z4 will be up there with my stock Lotus Elise with standard tires. BUT it will never be as nimble owing to its size and weight.

[Lambobimmer]

If you are looking for a track car then the Z4 is not the car. If you are looking for a great car to drive with huge straight line power potential with the abilty to put the top down then the Z4 if your answer. My pervious two BMW's (135i and E46 M3) were manuals but I love the DCT in my Z4.

[Crazykoh]

Originally Posted by Alpha_Zulu

Oh and BTW OP, if you're really dead set on a MT, the Z4 35i comes with an N55. Only the 35is comes in N54. Just to clarify.

Both the 35i and 35 is use the N54 engine with different tuning (and some debate exists over a couple of components).

[nicknaz]

Sounds like you want a track car based on your comments about light, nimble and upgradeable. Z435 isn't the greatest platform for this.

As a daily driven street car it has a really high fun factor though

[templarklimek]

Thank you Gents for your honest and educational answers. I don't track my cars, but I do enjoy pushing them where safe and no one around.

My intent would be to create a M version of the Z4. new brakes, tires and engine tunes. It appears that 440 hp is easily doable from researching ESS options.

It's the mini's JCW's fault really, it's like a little go cart. I've tuned it to about 255 HP.

I'm going to see if my dealer has a used one I can take for a day to try it out.

Thanks again.

[nicknaz]

It is a fun street car for sure.

Get 18" wheels + sport or m sport package and keep it stock and enjoy it for a while to get a good baseline and figure out how hard you are using it before modifying.

Reason I bring this up is that most chips revert to the stock tune at 270F oil temperature and if you are reaching this often you will need more supporting mods to have the power gains. More specifically, the 35i and 35is have a 600W radiator fan and no auxiliary radiator in front of the driver side wheel, while the 1M/335is/135is/F30 M sport all have 850W radiator fan and the auxiliary radiator

Potentially an irrelevant point to you but I'm sharing because it is one that I personally wish I knew about before buying

[Z4-Archon]

I went from a 135i (M sport package) to a Z4-35i. The Z4 is a great cruiser and is pretty fast in a straight line. But when it comes to handling and suspension the M3 will blow it away. I have driven a friends 2010 M3 and the handling was about the same as the 135, suspension was a bit better. Both of those were very neutral in their handling, easy to understeer or oversteer depending on throttle/brake usage. The Z4 understeers way too much, and you have to give it tons of throttle to get it to over steer. That isn't the big issue for me though, the suspension really needs work. It is setup as a touring car in my opinion, and the springs are simply far too soft. I have the adjustable suspension, and that only adjusts dampening.

I am planning on replacing the springs to help with suspension and a stiffer (adjustable) rear sway bar to help with handling. I doubt, even with these changes, it will be as good as the 135, let alone a M3.

All that being said, I still love my Z4. It just has some limitations you won't see unless you really push it, and those limitations seem counter to what you are looking for.

[Asbjorn]

Originally Posted by Z4-Archon

The Z4 understeers way too much, and you have to give it tons of throttle to get it to over steer.

I do not have problems with too much under-steer on mine (18" non-RFT non-adaptive suspension). Instead I get tons of over-steer whenever I drive enthusiastically.

Edmunds data

Slalom
Z4 35is 19inch adaptive 66.7-mph
Z4 35i 18inch adaptive 68.9 mph
135i coupe 18inch 69.7 mph
M3 19inch PS2 edc 73 mph

Skid pad
Z4 35is 19inch adaptive 0.87g
Z4 35i 18inch adaptive 0.90g
135i coupe 18inch 0.90g
M3 19inch PS2 edc 0.95g

Stops from 60 mph
Z4 35is 19inch adaptive 105 feet
Z4 35i 18inch adaptive 106 feet
135i coupe 18inch 108 feet

[VailM3]

Originally Posted by templarklimek

I've taken a real hard look at the TTRS, good call. My other car is a mini JCW coupe(2 seater). It has made me appreciate a smaller more nimble car thus the consideration of the Z4 or TTRS.

I just admire the Templar's(historical). The fiction that has arisen around them is great entertainment though..

Its pretty simple between these two. If you want a vert go z4, if not TTRS.