z4 vs boxster s

[m33porsche]

Just bought a boxster s after driving both

Was impressed with the interior of the Z. In terms of driving experience it was a little like scaled down 6 series which is no bad thing.

The boxster however fitted my needs more. A combination of the sound of the boxer engine, the delicacy of the steering and the feel of the gear/clutch change makes its a wonderful thing to drive.

Like most of the posts say, I don't drive on a track, but you can feel all of the above, at any speed on any road. Its the little things like the instant turn-in bite to a corner or the finely judged progression of the brakes that make it so much fun to drive.

Having previously owned a 997 s I can say that since the dfi engine upgrade this little car would seriously worry it.

[Shakal]

Originally Posted by richard in NC

Hans Stuck may be faster than an automatic, but few people are as skilled as he is. The Sport Automatic can shift in .2 seconds. How long is your foot on the clutch for a shift?
Here is the 550i with Sport Automatic on track at Virginia International Raceway: http://http://vimeo.com/2378171 The video is the whole session with the warmup and cool-down laps edited out. You can plainly see the ease of using the paddle shifters and hear the speed of the shifts. IIRC, there were 3 downshifts (turns 1, 11, and 15) and all upshifts were at redline (from 2-3-4-5 on the back straight). It was a cold track so I took it easy several laps. At the 6 minute mark, I pass a 911 and start to have fun. I let 3 faster cars pass a few laps later but stayed with them until the end of the section and a small slide on marbles.

Like you said, experienced driver is faster with manual. Main advantage aren't upshifts, but connection between gearbox, clutch especially when you are braking and entering in corners. No offence, you posted nice video from race track, but this is far away from being on limits. And when you are on limits, trust me you have much more control with manual gearbox than with automatic. Thats reason why base automatic gearboxes can't be find in serious supercars.

Look this video, this is driving on limit... they couldn't drive close to that with automatic gearbox:

Only DCT , S-tronic / DSG ... gearboxes came near to manual gearboxes in terms of performances on race track. They are faster on acceleration on straight line, but lap time still isn't better.

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by Shakal

Like you said, experienced driver is faster with manual. Main advantage aren't upshifts, but connection between gearbox, clutch especially when you are braking and entering in corners. No offence, you posted nice video from race track, but this is far away from being on limits. And when you are on limits, trust me you have much more control with manual gearbox than with automatic. Thats reason why base automatic gearboxes can't be find in serious supercars.

Look this video, this is driving on limit... they couldn't drive close to that with automatic gearbox:

Only DCT , S-tronic / DSG ... gearboxes came near to manual gearboxes in terms of performances on race track. They are faster on acceleration on straight line, but lap time still isn't better.

Nah! Drifting is cool but this is driving at the limit. It also illustrates Hans Stuck's shift speed...http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV5EcSlBhqc

[Shakal]

Originally Posted by richard in NC

Nah! Drifting is cool but this is driving at the limit. It also illustrates Hans Stuck's shift speed...http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV5EcSlBhqc

You are comparing apples and oranges. This M3 GTR doesn't have manual gearbox and doesn't have automatic gearbox, but got race sequential gearbox which can't be used on regular cars for roads. Also different categories got different driving styles when driving on limit. Touge battle isn't drifting, but driving as fast as possible on this road and they are driving on limit. Those cars on this road are faster if they slide into corners, like for example rally cars. Also race karts are sliding in corners. On other side, Formula 1, Le Mans, DTM,... Hans Stuck doesn't drift / slide in corners when driving on limit, because those categories got different driving styles and with sliding they lose time.

Driving style with driving our RWD cars on limit in more similar to driving style in "Touge battle." And there manual gearbox with clutch got much better control than automatic gearbox. This is fact.

Another fact is our non M cars can't be driven on limit for more than a few laps (a few minutes). Reason are brakes, soon they became overheated and doesn't work good anymore. This is one of reasons why I don't drive normal cars on track. I've got 125 ccm race kart with which I visit track almost every month and I hope I will find more time and will prepare track car for next year - Lotus Exige with tunned ITR engine, Brembo racing brakes... - that will be fun.

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by Shakal

You are comparing apples and oranges. This M3 GTR doesn't have manual gearbox and doesn't have automatic gearbox, but got race sequential gearbox which can't be used on regular cars for roads. Also different categories got different driving styles when driving on limit. Touge battle isn't drifting, but driving as fast as possible on this road and they are driving on limit. Those cars on this road are faster if they slide into corners, like for example rally cars. Also race karts are sliding in corners. On other side, Formula 1, Le Mans, DTM,... Hans Stuck doesn't drift / slide in corners when driving on limit, because those categories got different driving styles and with sliding they lose time.

Driving style with driving our RWD cars on limit in more similar to driving style in "Touge battle." And there manual gearbox with clutch got much better control than automatic gearbox. This is fact.

Another fact is our non M cars can't be driven on limit for more than a few laps (a few minutes). Reason are brakes, soon they became overheated and doesn't work good anymore. This is one of reasons why I don't drive normal cars on track. I've got 125 ccm race kart with which I visit track almost every month and I hope I will find more time and will prepare track car for next year - Lotus Exige with tunned ITR engine, Brembo racing brakes... - that will be fun.

What the video again. That's a standard H pattern I believe, not sequential. Yes it is a racing transmission with straight cut gears, even harder to shift quick. Whether you need to drift or not, depends on the slip angle needed. On dirt, drifting helps. I only can assume with carting as well. Or is that simply to overcome inherrent understeer? Yes, driving on the limit, is getting the fastest possible time out of the car. Only achieveable if you are on the edge of traction throughout the entire turn, and on the straights with acceleation and braking.

I think we agree, yet disagree. A few last points. Have you driven the new sport automatic with paddles? On track, or pushed hard on the street? With the lock up converter in every gear, and fast paddle shfting, plenty of "control" is available. In 2nd, 3rd, or 4th, I can feather the throttle in turns and get alll of the control I need to balance the car. Although I wish the 550i had a LSD for better traction.

Also, re speed of shifting, given the average driver on the street, and even the weekend track warrior, I bet my Sport Automatic beats most of their shift speeds. If you are a semi-pro racer and can shift in <.2 seconds, great.... BTW, try to start and stop a stopwatch in .2. That's how long your foot can be on the clutch to beat the sport automatic. For reference, the SMGIII shifts in .12 seconds, and the M-DCT in .08, so yes, THEY are faster.

BTW, at my speeds and skill level, the 550i, with new factory pads, lasts a whole weekend without significant brake fade. Note at VIR, I got to 130mph+ in 2 sections of the track, even 135 at times. Only when I ran with worn pads and screwed up my braking a few places (following folks that had no business being solo), did I experience fade. But next session and the rest of the weekend, I was fine for many hot laps in a row with only slight fade at the end of a session (seen in the last lap of the video above). A track pad upgrade (recommended for any serious track warrior, BMW or not) would have solved that.

The only reason I didn't push the car any harder in the video, was cold track conditions, that may have helped the brakes, being 40f, not 90f. Note 3 new Porsches found the tire walls that weekend, 2 because of a newby mistake in turn 10 (early apex of the downhill left after the climbing esses @ 2:35, 5:20, 7:55, etc). Note the skid marks going off left, down the hill. The 3rd wreck, I don't recall what happened.

[Robert]

I like the cayman/boxster because of its agility and the quality of aftermarket parts, but, BIG BUT, the price for mods are in p-car category as well. A full body kit can cost 20k. There is a kit that massages the 911 engine into the cayman as well. Plenty of option as long as the wallet can afford it.

[Shakal]

Originally Posted by richard in NC

What the video again. That's a standard H pattern I believe, not sequential. Yes it is a racing transmission with straight cut gears, even harder to shift quick. Whether you need to drift or not, depends on the slip angle needed. On dirt, drifting helps. I only can assume with carting as well. Or is that simply to overcome inherrent understeer? Yes, driving on the limit, is getting the fastest possible time out of the car. Only achieveable if you are on the edge of traction throughout the entire turn, and on the straights with acceleation and braking.

I think we agree, yet disagree. A few last points. Have you driven the new sport automatic with paddles? On track, or pushed hard on the street? With the lock up converter in every gear, and fast paddle shfting, plenty of "control" is available. In 2nd, 3rd, or 4th, I can feather the throttle in turns and get alll of the control I need to balance the car. Although I wish the 550i had a LSD for better traction.

Also, re speed of shifting, given the average driver on the street, and even the weekend track warrior, I bet my Sport Automatic beats most of their shift speeds. If you are a semi-pro racer and can shift in <.2 seconds, great.... BTW, try to start and stop a stopwatch in .2. That's how long your foot can be on the clutch to beat the sport automatic. For reference, the SMGIII shifts in .12 seconds, and the M-DCT in .08, so yes, THEY are faster.

BTW, at my speeds and skill level, the 550i, with new factory pads, lasts a whole weekend without significant brake fade. Note at VIR, I got to 130mph+ in 2 sections of the track, even 135 at times. Only when I ran with worn pads and screwed up my braking a few places (following folks that had no business being solo), did I experience fade. But next session and the rest of the weekend, I was fine for many hot laps in a row with only slight fade at the end of a session (seen in the last lap of the video above). A track pad upgrade (recommended for any serious track warrior, BMW or not) would have solved that.

The only reason I didn't push the car any harder in the video, was cold track conditions, that may have helped the brakes, being 40f, not 90f. Note 3 new Porsches found the tire walls that weekend, 2 because of a newby mistake in turn 10 (early apex of the downhill left after the climbing esses @ 2:35, 5:20, 7:55, etc). Note the skid marks going off left, down the hill. The 3rd wreck, I don't recall what happened.

You're right, this M3 GTR got H 6-Speed Manual w/Triple-Disc Carbon Fiber Clutch. Why it doesn't have automatic gearbox ?

I also had DSG a few years ago, upshift was very fast, but soon I sold a car because I like manual gearbox more in sportier cars. I also have experience with Porsche's Tiptronic, but didn't like it, because it isn't reposieve as it should be. I think your 550i got SMG, this one is better than regular automatic. I agree it changes gear faster than manual (upshift), but still when braking and in corners manual give better feedback IMO. Thats reason why real supercars doesn't have automatic gearboxes... But you're 550i isn't sports car, but fast sedan, so SMG gearbox is right choice for that car. My ex E60 had automatic gearbox too. DCT gearbox in Z4 35i is good choice too , while I wouldn't have automatic gearbox offered in 23i or in 30i - there manual is the only choice IMO.


I suggest you to buy some good brake kit, for example Brembo 4 piston brake kit. It will work much better on track and most crashes on track with stock cars happens when brakes doesn't work good anymore because they became overheated.

Stock disc + race pads isn't good idea, because those brake pads will "eat" your disc. But with race brakes you must be careful when brakes are cold, because a first few 100 m when they are cold, braking distance is quite longer.

[Otago]

"I agree it changes gear faster than manual (upshift), but still when braking and in corners manual give better feedback IMO"

I agree with you from the bottom of my heart.

[richard in NC]

Its not SMG in the 550i. That transmission was last used in the 2007 550i. Starting 2008, it uses the latest ZF auto described here: http://http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/...s_dct_fighter/
Note the article was written in 2007 which doesn't reference the 2008 addition of paddles or "extra sport" modes.

The automatic in the Z4 3.0 and the 335i are the same, complete with paddles. Its not the same as a manual, nor quite as good as the DCT, but it's the best automatic around.

[welbo]

I currently owned the latest 911 C2S and recently just sold the Boxster S to buy a Z4 35i. I will never consider the old Z4 as I will buy a Boxster anything if handling and tracking is my top consideration.

I love the new Z4 design and its all rounder ability.

[335Transformer]

Originally Posted by Shakal

LOL, tell me one serious supercar with bluetooth (BTW: bluetooth is one word and not two),

While you are correcting people, Bluetooth is also capitalized.