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09-26-2013, 03:59 PM | #23 | |
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09-26-2013, 04:01 PM | #24 |
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As I was hammered for my love of Horsepower, god forbid and some here seem to feel its a bad thing, hence the statement:
"I thought people here were educated enough to know that high horsepower is all an advertising scam" I bet all those lucky people who drop, sometimes millions on there cars for the Excessive Horespower cars don't think their cars are advertising scams. I FULLY realize that MOST of these examples are not real life, but I have to still dream- LET THE HAMMERING BEGIN:: Bugatti Veryon Super Sport at 1200 HP Dodge Viper- the coupe, the Viper's 640-bhp 8.4-liter V-10 and 6-speed Tremec 2013 Shelby 1000 HP SC Officially released McLaren P1- The 3.8-liter eight-cylinder produces 727 hp and 531 lb-ft Ferrari HP History Alright, here are some of my additions off the top of my head: (all numbers US spec) 300hp, 348TB 1989-1993 320hp 348GTB 1993-1995 380hp, F355 1994-1999 420hp Challenge Stradale 2003-2004 (some post production cars in 2005) 460hp California 2009- (upgraded to 490hp in 2012) 478hp F40 1987-1992 508hp 575 2002-2006 510hp 430 Scuderia 2007-2009 520hp F50 1995-1997 540hp 612 2004-2010 611hp 599GTB 2005-2012 651hp FF 2011- 660hp Enzo 2002-2004 (some post production cars up to 2008) 661hp 599GTO 2010-2012 Top 100 Highest Horsepower cars available- BMW is at least represented in the top 100 with 4 entries: 100- 2010 BMW X5 M — 555 horsepower at 6,000 rpm: 94-92. 2013 BMW M6 Grand Coupe — 560 hp at 6,000 rpm 94-92. (Tie) 2013 BMW M6 — 560 hp at 6,000 rpm 94-92. (Tie) 2013 BMW M5 — 560 hp at 6,000 90. 2010 Lamborghini Gallardo LP570-4 Superleggera — 562 hp at 8,000 rpm 80. 2007 Caparo T1 — 575 hp at 10,000 rpm: 70. 2013 Mercedes-Benz G65 AMG — 603 hp at 4,800 rpm 60. 2005 Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren — 617 hp at 6,500 rpm: 50. 2006 Ascari A10 — 625 hp at 7,500 rpm: 46. 2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 — 638 hp at 6,500 rpm 40. 2006 Gumpert Apollo — 641 hp at 6,000 rpm 30. 2012 Lamborghini Aventador LP700-4 — 690 hp at 8,250 rpm 20. 2013 Gumpert Apollo S — 750 hp at 6,000 rpm 10. 2006 Bristol Fighter T — 1,012 hp at 5,600 rpm 1. 2009 SSC Ultimate Aero — 1,287 hp at 6,075 rpm
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09-26-2013, 04:53 PM | #25 | ||
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It's about people's perception of horsepower these days and them thinking it's the be all and end all. To be honest I speak on behalf of "most" Europeans when I say, "we don't really care about the Vette. Mustang, Caddy or any of those cars because quite frankly they don't compare when you pit them against the Europeans for a quality product.. There is a reason why the American cars are cheaper!! They're plastic! I've driven a Vette once before in the US and ok, it may be fast but my, how poorly built are they! I know where my money would go every time... Anyway, do we really go at full whack everywhere we go all of the time? Sorry, this isn't directed at any individual but I'm a bit bored with all the US Car talk - I'm on here because it's the German cars that "we" are fond of. *RANT OVER |
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09-26-2013, 05:00 PM | #26 | |
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My point was only that I did not see anyone comparing the Vette to the Z4 in this thread, so a long discussion of why the Z4 shouldn't be compared to the Vette, although raising good points, struck me as a bit of a non sequitur. That's all. As for German cars: |
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09-26-2013, 10:24 PM | #27 | |
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Don't get me wrong, when I said "horsepower is a advertising scam," I would be a fool to actually think HP means nothing. In fact, it goes hand-in-hand with torque and ultimately power. Hell, they are directly dependent on and affect each other. However, companies advertising the "we have more horsepower, which means we are faster" is what I was referring to as being a "scam." And its just sad to see that so many people are taking into this misconception. With that said, there are definitely a few cars on that list that I would most certainly <dream about> buying if I had the money. However, I feel like the difference for me is that I am attracted to the car from more of a design standpoint rather the the sheer number itself. But then again, my car "only" has 300HP so what do I know On a related note, it's funny to see so many people obsessed with horsepower and 0-60 times even though torque is way more indicative of a 0-60 time. That, is advertisement at its best. I don't know if what I'm saying is coming through (long day at work...) but an analogy that might be easier to understand for you because it is within your field is wattage vs. lumens. Everyone tries to tell you that their bulbs are brighter because they have higher wattage, when in fact it is lumens that really dictate "brightness." However, that is not to say wattage is meaningless because alas, it is directly related to lumens as well. Last edited by CedarZ4; 09-26-2013 at 10:31 PM.. |
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09-26-2013, 11:31 PM | #28 |
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09-28-2013, 10:48 AM | #29 | |
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Automakers are being asked to increase efficiencies - better fuel economy and lower exhaust emissions. At least at face value it appears BMW has done this going from the N/A V-8 to the Turbocharged I6. All the while making more power and torque. They've also done it going from N/A V-10 to Turbocharged V-8 and N/A I6 to Turbocharged I4. It's all about efficiency - bottom line. I understand some can't get past the power delivery of a N/A engine, and of course it is different. But, to try and argue that the power is lower when it's clearly not is a little silly. The trend if anything is the opposite. |
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09-28-2013, 11:18 AM | #30 | |
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With that said, not much we can do and like you said, at least numbers are going up. |
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09-28-2013, 05:19 PM | #31 | |
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You could obviously make a 3.0L N/A engine make the same hp as this new M3/M4 engine. You'd have to spin it fast and would likely not be making the same sort of torque numbers. Again you'd probably be struggling with fuel economy and emmissions as well. Most engine designers look at BMEP of an engine to compare it's ability to output power. Outside of purpose built race engines. I know of no N/A engines capable of putting up the same sort of BMEP as a turbocharged engine. |
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09-28-2013, 06:50 PM | #32 | |
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I think you may have mistaken my point, though. I agree, it's all a compromise. What I was saying is that true, current turbo engines have better fuel economy and more power than previous generation NA engines. However, if the same amount of money was put into designing a NA V8, it would have even more power, albeit less MPG. But point is, the NA larger displacement engine would always win in terms of power, which is what most people who say "no replacement for displacement" are really concerned about. |
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09-29-2013, 07:37 AM | #33 |
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I don't know if what I'm saying is coming through (long day at work...) but an analogy that might be easier to understand for you because it is within your field is wattage vs. lumens. Everyone tries to tell you that their bulbs are brighter because they have higher wattage, when in fact it is lumens that really dictate "brightness." However, that is not to say wattage is meaningless because alas, it is directly related to lumens as well.[/QUOTE]
Well said and absolute on the watts vs lumens analogy for the HP race. Higher wattage absolutely does not mean higher light output. Right on. I agree fully, 99% of those with the 1000+ hp cars probably never get them above 75mph, so all that performance is meaningless. If BMW can achieve better performance, with. Twin turbo 6 vs the out going 8 so be it. I have a Holman Moody Ford 427 Side oiler, medium rider, with dual quads pushing 475 -500 HP. This engine is a stump puller with power and torque thru the roof. Powerful enough to push 6000 lb boat to 72 Mph. As originally stated, there is no replacement for displacement.
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09-29-2013, 02:44 PM | #34 | |
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If someone is in the market for 435 or M4, then 100hp difference won't cut it. I know there is other stuff to consider with M cars but BMW should have bumped up the power more to justify for the added cost... |
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09-29-2013, 04:29 PM | #35 |
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Its not the horsepower.... It's the torque that matters... (and in turbo engines, the peak hp at the right rpm range with minimal lag) Also, the M4 is ultra light for its size, wider wheelbase and with a very low weight center... If you can understand what that means then you draw your own conclusions.
Personally cant wait for the convertible/hardtop version of the M4
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09-29-2013, 05:04 PM | #36 |
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10-01-2013, 12:38 PM | #37 |
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I would amend that slightly to be the "area under torque curve that matters"
BTW do you guys know if euro delivery for M3/M4 is going to come out of allocations or not? If the standard Euro delivery + $750 deal that can be had easily for non m cars will apply to M3/M4 that is going to be a pretty compelling since it is a nice discount. |
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10-01-2013, 03:59 PM | #38 |
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Recently it's been all "M" cars come from dealer allocation as well as some of the new releases.
Wouldn't expect any dealer willing to make a deal like that until later in the cycle or unless you have a stellar relationship with them. |
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