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      09-26-2013, 03:59 PM   #23
Hujan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbetoni View Post
Related more to the overall thread re: handling vs horsepower: for those of us roadster lovers, our hero cars aren't the high horsepower/high displacement race-born TransAm cars of yesteryear. Ours are (and I could be speaking out of turn here, I apologize if I am) those incredible, mostly European roadsters of a certain era: the 507, the 300SL roadster, Jag E-Type, Ferrari California, later the Daytona Spyder, and even the N.A.R.T Spyder recently sold in Monterey. On the lower-cost side, MGs, Triumphs, Alfa Spyders, Morgans, and yes, the early '53 'Vette, which was designed to emulate those Euro fore-fathers. Open top, great sound, beautiful countryside, pretty lady and lots of fun, thats what these cars (and the Z4, E89 & E85 and Z3 before it) are made for. That's why I bought mine, my two E85s before it, and exactly what I use it for - and pretty much only that. I hope you find something that makes you happier soon.
Agree 100%. But . . . this is a thread about the M3 v. Corvette, not the Z4!
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      09-26-2013, 04:01 PM   #24
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As I was hammered for my love of Horsepower, god forbid and some here seem to feel its a bad thing, hence the statement:

"I thought people here were educated enough to know that high horsepower is all an advertising scam"

I bet all those lucky people who drop, sometimes millions on there cars for the Excessive Horespower cars don't think their cars are advertising scams.

I FULLY realize that MOST of these examples are not real life, but I have to still dream-

LET THE HAMMERING BEGIN::

Bugatti Veryon Super Sport at 1200 HP
Dodge Viper- the coupe, the Viper's 640-bhp 8.4-liter V-10 and 6-speed Tremec
2013 Shelby 1000 HP SC Officially released
McLaren P1- The 3.8-liter eight-cylinder produces 727 hp and 531 lb-ft
Ferrari HP History
Alright, here are some of my additions off the top of my head: (all numbers US spec)
300hp, 348TB 1989-1993
320hp 348GTB 1993-1995
380hp, F355 1994-1999
420hp Challenge Stradale 2003-2004 (some post production cars in 2005)
460hp California 2009- (upgraded to 490hp in 2012)
478hp F40 1987-1992
508hp 575 2002-2006
510hp 430 Scuderia 2007-2009
520hp F50 1995-1997
540hp 612 2004-2010
611hp 599GTB 2005-2012
651hp FF 2011-
660hp Enzo 2002-2004 (some post production cars up to 2008)
661hp 599GTO 2010-2012

Top 100 Highest Horsepower cars available- BMW is at least represented in the top 100 with 4 entries:
100- 2010 BMW X5 M — 555 horsepower at 6,000 rpm:
94-92. 2013 BMW M6 Grand Coupe — 560 hp at 6,000 rpm
94-92. (Tie) 2013 BMW M6 — 560 hp at 6,000 rpm
94-92. (Tie) 2013 BMW M5 — 560 hp at 6,000
90. 2010 Lamborghini Gallardo LP570-4 Superleggera — 562 hp at 8,000 rpm
80. 2007 Caparo T1 — 575 hp at 10,000 rpm:
70. 2013 Mercedes-Benz G65 AMG — 603 hp at 4,800 rpm
60. 2005 Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren — 617 hp at 6,500 rpm:
50. 2006 Ascari A10 — 625 hp at 7,500 rpm:
46. 2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 — 638 hp at 6,500 rpm
40. 2006 Gumpert Apollo — 641 hp at 6,000 rpm
30. 2012 Lamborghini Aventador LP700-4 — 690 hp at 8,250 rpm
20. 2013 Gumpert Apollo S — 750 hp at 6,000 rpm
10. 2006 Bristol Fighter T — 1,012 hp at 5,600 rpm
1. 2009 SSC Ultimate Aero — 1,287 hp at 6,075 rpm
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      09-26-2013, 04:53 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hujan
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbetoni View Post
Related more to the overall thread re: handling vs horsepower: for those of us roadster lovers, our hero cars aren't the high horsepower/high displacement race-born TransAm cars of yesteryear. Ours are (and I could be speaking out of turn here, I apologize if I am) those incredible, mostly European roadsters of a certain era: the 507, the 300SL roadster, Jag E-Type, Ferrari California, later the Daytona Spyder, and even the N.A.R.T Spyder recently sold in Monterey. On the lower-cost side, MGs, Triumphs, Alfa Spyders, Morgans, and yes, the early '53 'Vette, which was designed to emulate those Euro fore-fathers. Open top, great sound, beautiful countryside, pretty lady and lots of fun, thats what these cars (and the Z4, E89 & E85 and Z3 before it) are made for. That's why I bought mine, my two E85s before it, and exactly what I use it for - and pretty much only that. I hope you find something that makes you happier soon.
Agree 100%. But . . . this is a thread about the M3 v. Corvette, not the Z4!
Who said this was about the M3 vs Vette?
It's about people's perception of horsepower these days and them thinking it's the be all and end all.

To be honest I speak on behalf of "most" Europeans when I say, "we don't really care about the Vette. Mustang, Caddy or any of those cars because quite frankly they don't compare when you pit them against the Europeans for a quality product.. There is a reason why the American cars are cheaper!! They're plastic! I've driven a Vette once before in the US and ok, it may be fast but my, how poorly built are they! I know where my money would go every time... Anyway, do we really go at full whack everywhere we go all of the time?
Sorry, this isn't directed at any individual but I'm a bit bored with all the US Car talk - I'm on here because it's the German cars that "we" are fond of.
*RANT OVER
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      09-26-2013, 05:00 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M7NDP View Post
Who said this was about the M3 vs Vette?
It's about people's perception of horsepower these days and them thinking it's the be all and end all.

To be honest I speak on behalf of "most" Europeans when I say, "we don't really care about the Vette. Mustang, Caddy or any of those cars because quite frankly they don't compare when you pit them against the Europeans for a quality product.. There is a reason why the American cars are cheaper!! They're plastic! I've driven a Vette once before in the US and ok, it may be fast but my, how poorly built are they! I know where my money would go every time... Anyway, do we really go at full whack everywhere we go all of the time?
Sorry, this isn't directed at any individual but I'm a bit bored with all the US Car talk - I'm on here because it's the German cars that "we" are fond of.
*RANT OVER
Oh, trust me. I am not a proponent of American muscle cars. We have two cars and both are BMWs.

My point was only that I did not see anyone comparing the Vette to the Z4 in this thread, so a long discussion of why the Z4 shouldn't be compared to the Vette, although raising good points, struck me as a bit of a non sequitur. That's all.

As for German cars:
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      09-26-2013, 10:24 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWZ4RIDER View Post
As I was hammered for my love of Horsepower, god forbid and some here seem to feel its a bad thing, hence the statement:

"I thought people here were educated enough to know that high horsepower is all an advertising scam"

I bet all those lucky people who drop, sometimes millions on there cars for the Excessive Horespower cars don't think their cars are advertising scams.

I FULLY realize that MOST of these examples are not real life, but I have to still dream-

LET THE HAMMERING BEGIN::

Bugatti Veryon Super Sport at 1200 HP
Dodge Viper- the coupe, the Viper's 640-bhp 8.4-liter V-10 and 6-speed Tremec
2013 Shelby 1000 HP SC Officially released
McLaren P1- The 3.8-liter eight-cylinder produces 727 hp and 531 lb-ft
Ferrari HP History
Alright, here are some of my additions off the top of my head: (all numbers US spec)
300hp, 348TB 1989-1993
320hp 348GTB 1993-1995
380hp, F355 1994-1999
420hp Challenge Stradale 2003-2004 (some post production cars in 2005)
460hp California 2009- (upgraded to 490hp in 2012)
478hp F40 1987-1992
508hp 575 2002-2006
510hp 430 Scuderia 2007-2009
520hp F50 1995-1997
540hp 612 2004-2010
611hp 599GTB 2005-2012
651hp FF 2011-
660hp Enzo 2002-2004 (some post production cars up to 2008)
661hp 599GTO 2010-2012

Top 100 Highest Horsepower cars available- BMW is at least represented in the top 100 with 4 entries:
100- 2010 BMW X5 M — 555 horsepower at 6,000 rpm:
94-92. 2013 BMW M6 Grand Coupe — 560 hp at 6,000 rpm
94-92. (Tie) 2013 BMW M6 — 560 hp at 6,000 rpm
94-92. (Tie) 2013 BMW M5 — 560 hp at 6,000
90. 2010 Lamborghini Gallardo LP570-4 Superleggera — 562 hp at 8,000 rpm
80. 2007 Caparo T1 — 575 hp at 10,000 rpm:
70. 2013 Mercedes-Benz G65 AMG — 603 hp at 4,800 rpm
60. 2005 Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren — 617 hp at 6,500 rpm:
50. 2006 Ascari A10 — 625 hp at 7,500 rpm:
46. 2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 — 638 hp at 6,500 rpm
40. 2006 Gumpert Apollo — 641 hp at 6,000 rpm
30. 2012 Lamborghini Aventador LP700-4 — 690 hp at 8,250 rpm
20. 2013 Gumpert Apollo S — 750 hp at 6,000 rpm
10. 2006 Bristol Fighter T — 1,012 hp at 5,600 rpm
1. 2009 SSC Ultimate Aero — 1,287 hp at 6,075 rpm
The extensive list you compiled (very impressive, unless you just copied it from elsewhere, but regardless) just further proves my statement. First of all, take a look at those cars. 9.5/10 of them are more of a status vehicle more than anything. Just like how 9.5/10 of them are status cars, I probably wouldn't be too far off from the fact to say that 9.5/10 of the owners didn't get the car for its performance either, rather for the "look at my 1,000 horsepower car." Of course they don't feel scammed. It achieved exactly what they wanted it to; show off to their friends their horsepower. Hence, going back to my argument that horsepower is more of an e-peen booster than a real indication of performance.

Don't get me wrong, when I said "horsepower is a advertising scam," I would be a fool to actually think HP means nothing. In fact, it goes hand-in-hand with torque and ultimately power. Hell, they are directly dependent on and affect each other. However, companies advertising the "we have more horsepower, which means we are faster" is what I was referring to as being a "scam." And its just sad to see that so many people are taking into this misconception.

With that said, there are definitely a few cars on that list that I would most certainly <dream about> buying if I had the money. However, I feel like the difference for me is that I am attracted to the car from more of a design standpoint rather the the sheer number itself. But then again, my car "only" has 300HP so what do I know

On a related note, it's funny to see so many people obsessed with horsepower and 0-60 times even though torque is way more indicative of a 0-60 time. That, is advertisement at its best.

I don't know if what I'm saying is coming through (long day at work...) but an analogy that might be easier to understand for you because it is within your field is wattage vs. lumens. Everyone tries to tell you that their bulbs are brighter because they have higher wattage, when in fact it is lumens that really dictate "brightness." However, that is not to say wattage is meaningless because alas, it is directly related to lumens as well.

Last edited by CedarZ4; 09-26-2013 at 10:31 PM..
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      09-26-2013, 11:31 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haspi View Post
I guess I'm keeping the Z until the new Z06
You refuse to upgrade for less than 131 hp? is that where you draw the line?

Keep your car, man. E89 is the best-looker in BMW's lineup.
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      09-28-2013, 10:48 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWZ4RIDER View Post
Let's hope the the straight 6 double turbo is still in existence In a few years.
BMW killed the M3 V8.
Next will be the straight turbo 6.
Everything in the HP race is being watered down.
There's no replacement for cubic inches.
I wouldn't worry about it

Automakers are being asked to increase efficiencies - better fuel economy and lower exhaust emissions.

At least at face value it appears BMW has done this going from the N/A V-8 to the Turbocharged I6. All the while making more power and torque.

They've also done it going from N/A V-10 to Turbocharged V-8 and N/A I6 to Turbocharged I4.

It's all about efficiency - bottom line.

I understand some can't get past the power delivery of a N/A engine, and of course it is different. But, to try and argue that the power is lower when it's clearly not is a little silly. The trend if anything is the opposite.
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      09-28-2013, 11:18 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by DslDwg View Post
I wouldn't worry about it

Automakers are being asked to increase efficiencies - better fuel economy and lower exhaust emissions.

At least at face value it appears BMW has done this going from the N/A V-8 to the Turbocharged I6. All the while making more power and torque.

They've also done it going from N/A V-10 to Turbocharged V-8 and N/A I6 to Turbocharged I4.

It's all about efficiency - bottom line.

I understand some can't get past the power delivery of a N/A engine, and of course it is different. But, to try and argue that the power is lower when it's clearly not is a little silly. The trend if anything is the opposite.
I think the point here is that a superiorly designed V8 will have better output than a similarly designed I6. That is to say, not that from generation to generation the output hasn't gone up despite engine size reducing, but I think the "no replacement for displacement" is talking more about if the same amount of time, money, and technology were to be put into a N/A V8, it would overpower a Turbo I6/V6.

With that said, not much we can do and like you said, at least numbers are going up.
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      09-28-2013, 05:19 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CedarZ4 View Post
I think the point here is that a superiorly designed V8 will have better output than a similarly designed I6. That is to say, not that from generation to generation the output hasn't gone up despite engine size reducing, but I think the "no replacement for displacement" is talking more about if the same amount of time, money, and technology were to be put into a N/A V8, it would overpower a Turbo I6/V6.

With that said, not much we can do and like you said, at least numbers are going up.
It's not about "superior" design. All engine design is about a give and take. If you get somethinng you're probably giving something up.

You could obviously make a 3.0L N/A engine make the same hp as this new M3/M4 engine. You'd have to spin it fast and would likely not be making the same sort of torque numbers. Again you'd probably be struggling with fuel economy and emmissions as well.

Most engine designers look at BMEP of an engine to compare it's ability to output power. Outside of purpose built race engines. I know of no N/A engines capable of putting up the same sort of BMEP as a turbocharged engine.
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      09-28-2013, 06:50 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DslDwg View Post
...

Most engine designers look at BMEP of an engine to compare it's ability to output power. Outside of purpose built race engines. I know of no N/A engines capable of putting up the same sort of BMEP as a turbocharged engine.
That's because the emission and fuel regulations, like you mentioned, don't allow them to make such an engine, so they don't put the time into even trying. Like you mentioned, in order for an N/A engine to match that of a turbo, it would have to be very high revving, therefore reduced MPG.

I think you may have mistaken my point, though. I agree, it's all a compromise. What I was saying is that true, current turbo engines have better fuel economy and more power than previous generation NA engines. However, if the same amount of money was put into designing a NA V8, it would have even more power, albeit less MPG. But point is, the NA larger displacement engine would always win in terms of power, which is what most people who say "no replacement for displacement" are really concerned about.
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      09-29-2013, 07:37 AM   #33
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I don't know if what I'm saying is coming through (long day at work...) but an analogy that might be easier to understand for you because it is within your field is wattage vs. lumens. Everyone tries to tell you that their bulbs are brighter because they have higher wattage, when in fact it is lumens that really dictate "brightness." However, that is not to say wattage is meaningless because alas, it is directly related to lumens as well.[/QUOTE]

Well said and absolute on the watts vs lumens analogy for the HP race.
Higher wattage absolutely does not mean higher light output. Right on.

I agree fully, 99% of those with the 1000+ hp cars probably never get them above 75mph, so all that performance is meaningless.

If BMW can achieve better performance, with. Twin turbo 6 vs the out going 8 so be it.

I have a Holman Moody Ford 427 Side oiler, medium rider, with dual quads pushing 475 -500 HP. This engine is a stump puller with power and torque thru the roof. Powerful enough to push 6000 lb boat to 72 Mph.

As originally stated, there is no replacement for displacement.
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      09-29-2013, 02:44 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD-E93-11 View Post
You refuse to upgrade for less than 131 hp? is that where you draw the line?

Keep your car, man. E89 is the best-looker in BMW's lineup.
Definitely agree, Z is the best, just need more power....

If someone is in the market for 435 or M4, then 100hp difference won't cut it. I know there is other stuff to consider with M cars but BMW should have bumped up the power more to justify for the added cost...
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      09-29-2013, 04:29 PM   #35
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Its not the horsepower.... It's the torque that matters... (and in turbo engines, the peak hp at the right rpm range with minimal lag) Also, the M4 is ultra light for its size, wider wheelbase and with a very low weight center... If you can understand what that means then you draw your own conclusions.
Personally cant wait for the convertible/hardtop version of the M4
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      09-29-2013, 05:04 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VailM3 View Post
430 will be very under rated. Also people like cobb and ess will be able to squeeze 500 out of it without issue
agreed as I have an ESS tune, BUT the big issue is no more warranty from BMWNA with a tune
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      10-01-2013, 12:38 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Constant.S View Post
It's the torque that matters.
I would amend that slightly to be the "area under torque curve that matters"

BTW do you guys know if euro delivery for M3/M4 is going to come out of allocations or not?

If the standard Euro delivery + $750 deal that can be had easily for non m cars will apply to M3/M4 that is going to be a pretty compelling since it is a nice discount.
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      10-01-2013, 03:59 PM   #38
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Recently it's been all "M" cars come from dealer allocation as well as some of the new releases.

Wouldn't expect any dealer willing to make a deal like that until later in the cycle or unless you have a stellar relationship with them.
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