the new m3/m4 is only 430hp?

[haspi]

I guess I'm keeping the Z until the new Z06

[BMWZ4RIDER]

Let's hope the the straight 6 double turbo is still in existence In a few years.
BMW killed the M3 V8.
Next will be the straight turbo 6.
Everything in the HP race is being watered down.
There's no replacement for cubic inches.

[jparnes1]

Originally Posted by haspi

I guess I'm keeping the Z until the new Z06

You missed a huge point. It weighs only 3306 lbs. The lb/hp ratio is 7.68. If That doesn't impress you, get a Z06.

[vasmir]

Originally Posted by haspi

the new m3/m4 is only 430hp?

"only" 430hp...

wow.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by jparnes1

You missed a huge point. It weighs only 3306 lbs. The lb/hp ratio is 7.68. If That doesn't impress you, get a Z06.

Agreed OP, the C7 Z06 is going to be a MONSTER since the Stingray is already really winner and it is the mid level model only. If you want epic/world beating performance the C7 Z06 is going to be the way to go.

That said, 3306lb for the F80 is a HUGE win. Recall that the E90 M3 sedan started at around $55k, so if this F80 M3 is close in pricing that means ~$55k-$60k, so the power and weight and price will be close to the stingray, so BMW is really upping the performance per dollar. In the past E90 M3 would be beaten soundly by the C6 Z51 model but this time the M3 seems like it be closer.

I'm SO excited by this news. F80 is shaping up to be a viable track toy and still retains the ability to be taken more places since it is a 4dr sedan instead of a flashy 2 seat pure sports car

EDIT: I agree with OP that 430hp is worth of an "only" there are so many cars with power at this level now, it isn't as special as it was a few years ago. Even a rental car base Mustang 5.0 has 414hp. Hopefully BMW will bring the goods with the vehicle dynamics and more power or else it will be the BMW that will be the butt of jokes like the Mustangs were a few years ago

[Nkc]

Don't forget the underestimation of BMW's turbo hp figures. I'm more curious about the tq.

A simple tune will get it to 510 - 550, no worries guys.

[Alext]

New C63 with AWD and 520HP (est). Should be interesting match up. I reckon C63 will be the choice. New M4 has its superb weight as its main playing card. AMG has its glorious V8 engines...

[VailM3]

430 will be very under rated. Also people like cobb and ess will be able to squeeze 500 out of it without issue

[M7NDP]

So a 997 GT3 "only has 415bhp".
430bhp not enough?
Amazing how people get hung up on bhp numbers...

[haspi]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

EDIT: I agree with OP that 430hp is worth of an "only" there are so many cars with power at this level now, it isn't as special as it was a few years ago. Even a rental car base Mustang 5.0 has 414hp. Hopefully BMW will bring the goods with the vehicle dynamics and more power or else it will be the BMW that will be the butt of jokes like the Mustangs were a few years ago

That's exactly what I meant...430 hp is good but you expect something more from a M car.

Weight ratio is decent, I agree with the arguments above. I guess that's what they did with 1M as well....

[CedarZ4]

I thought people here were educated enough to know that high horsepower is all an advertising scam... If anything look at the torque, guys. C'mon, you know better. And while I do agree that nothing will ever beat the sound of a true V8, in terms of performance specs, a turbo-charged car if executed properly to reduce turbo lag (and considering the Z has essentially none, I would expect the same if not better on the M) and a solid torque curve from the nature of turbo cars... you truly have a car that will outrun the outgoing M3. Of course, what really matters is the bragging rights of telling our friends we have 8 million horsepower under the hood to make up for our small e-peen...

On a more serious note though, at almost 370 lb-ft, this is such a huge step up from the sub 300 that power shouldn't really be a concern.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by M7NDP

So a 997 GT3 "only has 415bhp".
430bhp not enough?
Amazing how people get hung up on bhp numbers...

And because of that 415hp power level, the GT3 will need to work to match a C6 Z51 that is almost 1/3 the cost, and will really struggle to hang with the C6 Z06 with more power.

People get hung up on HP (or rather, LB/HP) because the objective is to go faster than the next guy, and LB/HP is a great predictor of that ability

EDIT: Re the 1M, the news about the M235 is suggesting that the development team is getting is much faster times around the same tracks as the 1M. Sounds like BMW might be listening to enthusiasts who are asking it to bring the A game. Now if only Z4M will come back... now that it is S55.. which seems like it would fit where N54/N55 would fit....

[Desmo85]

Originally Posted by CedarZ4

I thought people here were educated enough to know that high horsepower is all an advertising scam... If anything look at the torque, guys. C'mon, you know better. And while I do agree that nothing will ever beat the sound of a true V8, in terms of performance specs, a turbo-charged car if executed properly to reduce turbo lag (and considering the Z has essentially none, I would expect the same if not better on the M) and a solid torque curve from the nature of turbo cars... you truly have a car that will outrun the outgoing M3. Of course, what really matters is the bragging rights of telling our friends we have 8 million horsepower under the hood to make up for our small e-peen...

On a more serious note though, at almost 370 lb-ft, this is such a huge step up from the sub 300 that power shouldn't really be a concern.

Amen.

My favourite quote from Carroll Shelby:

"Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races."



And you people should know that a BMW is all about the handling, not the Drag Race capabillity. Comparing an Supersport Car (Corvette) with a Daily Drive Capabillity "All can Do, no compromises" Sports Sedan is just ignorant, no offense.

[Mick70]

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by ChRR1000S

And you people should know that a BMW is all about the handling, not the Drag Race capabillity. Comparing an Supersport Car (Corvette) with a Daily Drive Capabillity "All can Do, no compromises" Sports Sedan is just ignorant, no offense.

Really? I see a lot of BMW owners (myself included) making that comparison every time I do an HPDE.

It is a tough comparison (vette is faster for less money) so I can see how some fan bois would want to avoid it....

[jparnes1]

Recent comparo between new Vette and outgoing M3 was favorable for the Vette, not just in power but handling as well.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by jparnes1

Recent comparo between new Vette and outgoing M3 was favorable for the Vette, not just in power but handling as well.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review

The fact that they keep dragging a 5-year old design out to pit against the newest offering from Chevy should tell you something about the M3's quality. What would an E92 M3 do to an '08 Stingray? Exactly.

Exhaust and tune and the F80 M3/F82 M4 will be well into the 500s. And if you have seen the videos of them testing the M3/M4 at the 'Ring, you know it will handle better than the E9x M3.

Lower weight, more power, better handling, without sacrificing luxury or daily-driver practicality. The new M3/M4 will be just fine.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Hujan

What would an E92 M3 do to an '08 Stingray? Exactly.
.

What the E92 M3 would do is be slower but more refined than a C6 grandsport (which is the equivalent of the C7 stingray trim level).

Here is an example

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...risons/4333820

The past aside, it is pretty interesting that F80 M3 and C7 Z51 are converging.. M3 is getting lightened to re focused on driving and the C7 added a bit of weight to focus on interior quality

Hopefully if BMW can do 400lbs weight reduction on the M3 we can get a ~3000lbs Z4M soon

~3000lb Z4M with the 15" carbon ceramic brakes, LSD, S55 engine.. I would not be bothering to consider a C7 Z51 at that point!! EDIT: but if the Z4M price goes to C7 Z06 territory.....

[Desmo85]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Really? I see a lot of BMW owners (myself included) making that comparison every time I do an HPDE.

It is a tough comparison (vette is faster for less money) so I can see how some fan bois would want to avoid it....

Apples and Oranges. The Vette is a Bargain Performance wise but then again its just half a car, and putting it down to the Daily Driving Capability makes me a Fanboy?

[mbetoni]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

~3000lb Z4M with the 15" carbon ceramic brakes, LSD, S55 engine.. I would not be bothering to consider a C7 Z51 at that point!! EDIT: but if the Z4M price goes to C7 Z06 territory.....

I have to admit folks, I'm finding the convo maddening. I swear, I'm not in a bad mood today either!

Nick, from my perspective, I think you've made it pretty clear how unhappy you are with the Z4's performance. Previous statements that lead me to believe this:

• You've mentioned the Z4's poor 'trap speed'. I'll even admit, when I read that I had to look up what trap speed was, as I have no interest/experience in drag racing.

• You tried to pawn your Z4 off onto your wife (and failed, sorry man).

• You've stated that you'd prefer a 'track missile" instead of your Z4 along the lines of a 'Vette or high-performance version of a 911 coupe.

• You would like the Z4 if it came in a full-on M version complete with much higher HP, better suspension, mechanical LSD, non-electric steering - and my guess would be you'd like it even more if it was a fixed roof coupe like the E86 M Coupe.

So, I guess I have two points:

1. Vette to M3 isn't apples to apples. Both have insanely different pedigrees, are born of different requirements and purposes, and are used fairly differently. As previously stated, M3 is a great track car you can use fairly pedestrian-ly in real life, 'Vette is a more sports oriented car with less practicality that's very much in it's element on a track.

2. Related more to the overall thread re: handling vs horsepower: for those of us roadster lovers, our hero cars aren't the high horsepower/high displacement race-born TransAm cars of yesteryear. Ours are (and I could be speaking out of turn here, I apologize if I am) those incredible, mostly European roadsters of a certain era: the 507, the 300SL roadster, Jag E-Type, Ferrari California, later the Daytona Spyder, and even the N.A.R.T Spyder recently sold in Monterey. On the lower-cost side, MGs, Triumphs, Alfa Spyders, Morgans, and yes, the early '53 'Vette, which was designed to emulate those Euro fore-fathers. Open top, great sound, beautiful countryside, pretty lady and lots of fun, thats what these cars (and the Z4, E89 & E85 and Z3 before it) are made for. That's why I bought mine, my two E85s before it, and exactly what I use it for - and pretty much only that. I hope you find something that makes you happier soon.

[nicknaz]

Noted! and thanks for the feedback.

[jparnes1]

Originally Posted by mbetoni

2. Related more to the overall thread re: handling vs horsepower: for those of us roadster lovers, our hero cars aren't the high horsepower/high displacement race-born TransAm cars of yesteryear. Ours are (and I could be speaking out of turn here, I apologize if I am) those incredible, mostly European roadsters of a certain era: the 507, the 300SL roadster, Jag E-Type, Ferrari California, later the Daytona Spyder, and even the N.A.R.T Spyder recently sold in Monterrey. On the lower-cost side, MGs, Triumphs, Alfa Spyders, Morgans, and yes, the early '53 'Vette, which was designed to emulate those Euro fore-fathers. Open top, great sound, beautiful countryside, pretty lady and lots of fun, thats what these cars (and the Z4, E89 & E85 and Z3 before it) are made for. That's why I bought mine, my two E85s before it, and exactly what I use it for - and pretty much only that. I hope you find something that makes you happier soon.

+1 Couldn't agree more.