When 350 Hp feels like a lot more

[Ramos]

You may have guessed I'm referring to the Base 991 911 Carerra.

My friend rented one for the weekend and we took it to the mountain for a spirited drive. I had been a passenger on many 911's before on track including a 997.2 GT3 RS at Cal speed way driven by a BMCCA instructor. So I already know they were a special breed but always assumed the base version would be underpowered and lame.

Somehow, I was very impressed and surprised by this base 911, the sound is intoxicating, the car just feels right in every way and feels much faster than the horsepower rating would lead you to believe..

What makes these car feel so right? Even the base lowliest model? I know I just want one, preferably an S or GTS of course, but honestly as s daily driver, the base car would do just fine..

Any thoughts to share on what special sauce the guys at Porsche use to get 350 Hp to feel so special? I mean it's not even 20 hp more than my 235 but it's not even in the same planet!!

[FogCityM3]

Two advantages of engine right "over" the rear axle: almost no driveline losses; tremendous rear grip that allows you to "steer" with the throttle.

[Ramos]

Yeah I was cautious with the idea of "snap oversteer" of the old 911's in my head but this new 991 generation is just planted in the rear and as you said very steerable with the throttle

[RM7]

BMWs are passenger cars modified to be sports cars, with very few exceptions. This isn't to say they are bad cars or even poor sports cars, but they'll never be as fast as something that was purely designed from the get-go to go fast and handle well. This has it's advantages, as it makes the BMWs generally more "livable" and far more practical, with trunks, rear doors and/or seats, headroom (generally), decent visibility, reasonable tires (instead of the 300+ on the rear of a 911, you think you have expensive tires, wait till you see what performance tires on that cost...) and so on...

That 911 isn't even taken to the extreme of the model line, but it's definitely an example of something designed more as a sportscar and less as a practical DD. Yes, plenty of people DD them, but they are in different classes as far as this IMO.

[tjlees]

Managed to resist pork for at least 15 years, consoling myself with various Ms and Evos.

Once you drive a modern 911 you realise it's in a different world. I drove the 991 c2s, even the suspension on 20s is in a different league. Feedback and feel, noise and even looks are just spot on.

Once you get it on track, you know why its is so good. The porker engineers must spend a fair amount of time honing it (and hooning it) round various race tracks. It easily takes that type of abuse, the snap oversteer has been dialled out and the chassis IMHO is beautifully balanced with lots of feedback on what the tyres are about to do.

When 911 finally lets go on track, its progressive. In my friends c2, it starts to understeer with psm off and less so with psm on.

It's Just so much fun and superb!

And of course it's very practical

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[auf Deutsch]

The 991 is 300-400 lbs lighter, depending on transmissions, than the 235. Combine that with 30 more hp and you have a car that traps 113 (7MT) compared to 108 in the 235 (8AT). PDK equipped will be noticeably quicker approaching M4 MT trap speeds.

[chillindrdude]

i think most folks drive p-cars alittle different in terms of where they stay in the revs. most enthusiasts know p-car NA engines like to be rev'd highly 3500+ rpm. IN that band, the torque/power delivery and engine response feels like it's connected to your brain.

that's probably why you feel they way you do.

there are a couple threads here in the F80 forum of people that switched out to the F8x from a NA 997 or 991. From what I've read, the overriding reason is that it's difficult/pain/impractical to stay in that meaty (relatively high) rev band in stop/go traffic that they encounter as a DD.

also, feeling fast, isn't necessarily the same as actually going fast. sitting position, ride height, noise insulation, etc. all can contribute to the sensation of speed. that is, not to take anything away from your driving ability or the power of P-cars.

for example, my paltry 150hp track prepped 944, "feels fast". you feel like your are sitting on the ground when you are strapped in, the firm suspension and roll bars, feedback thru the hydraulic steering, the sound of a catless exhaust from a NA engine; all seems to trick my brain sometimes. i will be gassing it along some curvy country roads, feel like i'm at least 70-80mph, look down and the speedo says 60.

[Socket]

+1 to everything above
One major difference is purchase price and running costs
I moved from a porsche to a bimmer, because Porsches need lots of attention and are CRAZY ASS expensive to maintain. Kinda like hot, high maintenance gf

[tjlees]

Originally Posted by Socket

+1 to everything above
One major difference is purchase price and running costs
I moved from a porsche to a bimmer, because Porsches need lots of attention and are CRAZY ASS expensive to maintain. Kinda like hot, high maintenance gf

goto an indy - it's two thirds cheaper - kinda like a the hot girl next door

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by auf Deutsch

The 991 is 300-400 lbs lighter, depending on transmissions, than the 235. Combine that with 30 more hp and you have a car that traps 113 (7MT) compared to 108 in the 235 (8AT). PDK equipped will be noticeably quicker approaching M4 MT trap speeds.

Very true. Looking at lap times, the M4 has a very difficult time on the track in comparison to something like a Cayman S or 911 Carrera even considering the big advantage it has in outright power. I have seen the Evo comparison where the base 991 outdid the M4 by a lot given the same driver (Franchitti) and also did the same at the Motown Mile. I love the GT nature of the 991 but on the track, it's a complete animal that is easy to drive, rewarding, and just plain fun.
As for weight, that does make a big difference in handling. They feel even lighter than they are too. I would have guessed the first time I drive a 911 it was a 2500 lbs car.

[Doc Oc]

http://m.caranddriver.com/comparison...e-specs-page-4

12.7@113 is pretty good for a 350 HP car but at 31xx pounds you can expect that. I just sold a 370 with a few mods, it ran 108 traps, 400 lbs heavier. The fastest I've gotten a stock c5 to run was 110, its 200 lbs heavier. Typically your looking at about a tenth and 1 mph gain for every 100 lbs. So the 911 seems right in there vs similarly powered cars. Badass piece of engineering that'll run with our cars even though they're less powerful.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

http://m.caranddriver.com/comparison...e-specs-page-4

12.7@113 is pretty good for a 350 HP car but at 31xx pounds you can expect that. I just sold a 370 with a few mods, it ran 108 traps, 400 lbs heavier. The fastest I've gotten a stock c5 to run was 110, its 200 lbs heavier. Typically your looking at about a tenth and 1 mph gain for every 100 lbs. So the 911 seems right in there vs similarly powered cars. Badass piece of engineering that'll run with our cars even though they're less powerful.

That was a 7 speed manual too. PDK would have been 115 mph or so. That's quite fast for 350 hp either way. Can't think of another 350 hp car that would be even close. It would take most other cars to be in the 400-450 hp range to hit that kind of trap speed.

[IEDEI]

350hp is MORE than enough power to have fun.

it's a shame these days that people don't appreciate the understated side of performance.....or should i say USABLE performance. HP numbers tell a very small story of driving enjoyment; and yet still people keep caring so much about HP figures----kind of sad.

throw a reasonable amount of HP into a good chassis with attention to detail----and that's all the sports car you will ever need, IMO.

I like the 991....but it's too refined for my tastes. The last time i drove one, it felt too much like an Audi. I prefer the 997 by a BIG margin.....

[Red Bread]

Yep, waiting for my kid to get out of the rear facing seat and plan on picking up a 997.2.

[dcaron9999]

Ive been lusting after 997 and 991 911's forever. Even the 981 CS. They do extremely well on the track, and it's almost impossible to keep up with them with my tuned 135i, and my moderate level of driving + courage.

The price tag, and more difficult DIY maintenance is what keeps me away from them. Still want to own one of the aforementioned P-cars in the future, and find a trustworthy mechanic to upkeep it ...

For now, the 135i still brings me smiles, and I can DIY a lot of the maintenance. The 135i is not the fastest primarily due to its weight, but still is thrilling. Platform is not too difficult and expensive to maintain especially in N55 flavor. Its relatively easy to upgrade, and address weak points ...

[lowbudgethero]

I feel like I would opt for a cayman S over the 911, you might as well hack off the barely useable rear seats

[dcaron9999]

Originally Posted by lowbudgethero

I feel like I would opt for a cayman S over the 911, you might as well hack off the barely useable rear seats

The CS is the better handling car out of the two, out of the box, even if it has less "prestige" than the 911.

I can just imagine the Cayman GT4 must be ... I hope to have the privilege of sitting my behind in the passenger seat as an instructor one day, because Ill never be able to afford one ...

" I like this extract from an article (Car & Driver):
" ...the higher loads of track use also brought out a different side to the GT4’s character—it starts to feel mid-engined, in the same way you only really realize how much mass the GT3 carries at the back under really hard driving. The GT4 turns in more keenly than the 911, and feels more stable under hard braking, but it lacks the corner-exiting traction its big-assed sister can generate. Nor does it have the sensation of trying to steer a pendulum that the 911 delivers on the limit. It’s a less demanding car to drive hard, but it’s not less of a car for it. Even in very close proximity to its limits, the GT4 stays predictable and even playful; we ignored the official instruction to leave the stability control switched on and discovered that the Cayman is profoundly unscary even with it fully defeated. Grip fades progressively and slides are easily corrected or extended, according to individual preference."

[Red Bread]

Absolutely agree that the Cayman is a better car than a 911. But I need a "back seat", otherwise a GT4 would be a no brainer.

[wjk_glynn]

I think people fall into either the quantative-numbers vs. qualitative-feel camps. And you tend to lean one way or the other.

Back in 2013, I drove the following within 1-week of each other:

* A friend's very nice stock '06 997.1S w/42K miles on it (i.e. 350 HP)
* Stock '01 996TT w/48K miles on a local reputable lot - also in excellent condition (400 HP and loads of torque).

And I came away more impressed with the 997.1S.

That was a genuine surprise to me as everything I read said the 996TT would be the winner. Somehow (to me) the 997.1S felt 'quicker', more 'agile', more 'alive'. The 996TT felt softer by comparison in such areas as throttle and suspension response -- by quite a long way.

Now by any objective measure, the 996TT is faster accelerating than the 997.1S - no question. The 996TT has loads of grunt and it certainly pinned my head against the headrest. Here's some objective data: http://www.weissach.net/996-997_RoadTestSummary.html

At that time, the '06 997.1S and '01 996TT are roughly the same money (in the mid-$40K range). But based on my test drives of those two particular cars, I think I'd take the 997S.

I wasn't expecting that...

Karl.

PS: As an aside, if I was getting a 997.1S, I'd look for an early one where you can still do the LN upgrade to the IMS bearing. Otherwise, I'd always have that issue in the back of my mind and it wouldn't be a long term keeper.

[Dan Bilzerian]

This car would be a dream to own! It's a full blown race car lol

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ctd/5066218758.html

[davis449]

Originally Posted by wjk_glynn

I think people fall into either the quantative-numbers vs. qualitative-feel camps. And you tend to lean one way or the other.

Back in 2013, I drove the following within 1-week of each other:

* A friend's very nice stock '06 997.1S w/42K miles on it (i.e. 350 HP)
* Stock '01 996TT w/48K miles on a local reputable lot - also in excellent condition (400 HP and loads of torque).

And I came away more impressed with the 997.1S.

That was a genuine surprise to me as everything I read said the 996TT would be the winner. Somehow (to me) the 997.1S felt 'quicker', more 'agile', more 'alive'. The 996TT felt softer by comparison in such areas as throttle and suspension response -- by quite a long way.

Now by any objective measure, the 996TT is faster accelerating than the 997.1S - no question. The 996TT has loads of grunt and it certainly pinned my head against the headrest. Here's some objective data: http://www.weissach.net/996-997_RoadTestSummary.html

At that time, the '06 997.1S and '01 996TT are roughly the same money (in the mid-$40K range). But based on my test drives of those two particular cars, I think I'd take the 997S.

I wasn't expecting that...

Karl.

PS: As an aside, if I was getting a 997.1S, I'd look for an early one where you can still do the LN upgrade to the IMS bearing. Otherwise, I'd always have that issue in the back of my mind and it wouldn't be a long term keeper.

Friend of mine had an '01 911 Turbo that was tuned. Even in the good shape it was in, that care wasn't even fun to drive. He had it less than a year before picking up an '08 911 C2 with Chrono and Sport Seats. That car was MILES better. 996's just suck, IMO.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by lowbudgethero

I feel like I would opt for a cayman S over the 911, you might as well hack off the barely useable rear seats

The Cayman S is definitely the better weekend track car, IMO. But 911s are a freaking blast when you want to have fun and not worry about lap times. The first RWD car I ever drove was a 964 and after 10 minutes it was just so intuitive to get it to pull small angle slides. My GFs dad has a Cayman S and it feels like an entry level super car, which somehow makes it more boring IMO, it's fast, corners level and neutral, but it just doesn't give you the same feeling as the 911. To me the Cayman S feels like a great car, but the 911 feels like an old friend. I haven't driven a 991 yet, but I would take a 20 year old 911 over a new Cayman S.