Considering a Z4 35i/35is, plus intro and long and rambling discussion...

[[DT]]

Howdy Folks!

I'm considering a Z4 for our next purchase, and I figured I'd do a little background and intro first!

We live in beautiful Vilano Beach, FL, own our own company, enjoy living a ~block away from the beach, music, design, cooking, biking, surfing, and I'm a huge car nut. I used to do 4 or 5 HPDEs a year, usually Roebling, Sebring, but haven't been on track in a few years.

We've owned three BMWs in the past: [chronologically oldest-to-newest] a Z3, 325Ci and a X5 4.4i. For the most part they were fun vehicles to own, reasonably maintenance free (all owned under warranty/maintenance plans). The X5 probably had the most issues, they were relagated to minor cosmetic things like finishes rubbing/pealing off (steering wheel, door pulls, exterior window trim).

I kind of left the BMW brand with a bit of a bad taste in my mouth, from a fender bender in the X5 (and really poor management of the repair), but that's more a dealer, body shop, rental car logistics - in my area we have two dealers, and they're the same owner, but at least they put in a brand new dealership a little closer, and moved the old crap-tacular to a big new building.

I've had a wide range of cars, in the last several years: 2 Corvettes (Coupe and Z06, moderate mods), a Supra (w/ excessive modifications ), and currently an S2000 to satisfy our roadster wants. I work out of the homestead, so I don't have or need a DD.

About 3-4 months ago was considering a change to a Porsche Boxster S. I checked out a 987 first and second gen, the latter being a PDK tranny (which I dug on quite a bit). No doubt the BS it's a terrific car, but it just didn't click and I'm so-so on the looks.

So I kind of back-burnered all this, thought I might get into some significant mods (supercharger) for the S, and I didn't pull the trigger. Mainly I think I've exhausted the modification desire with my last few vehicles. I've done some minor things like wheels/tires (I'm a sucker for aftermarket wheels), a little suspension, some odds and ends cosmetic tweaks. I think where I'm at right now, I'd prefer a complete package that's get-in-and-drive with as little street compromise and as few of hassles as possible. Definitely not beyond a little tuning though, especially with factor FI, see my other thread

So I started getting the itch again recently, especially in lieu of spending any more money on the S. (I'm still unsatisfied with my stereo and a few other small things ...)

BMW is still in the number one spot for the potential replacement. As you may have read, my goals in replacing the S are:

- Newer/different/"better" car, keeping it as a convertible/sport[s|y]
- Can be driven by the Wifey© but enjoyed by me (i.e., DCT, "clutchless" manual)
- Seating for 3 (2 adults, 1 Jelly)

However, the two main goals are the first two, in fact, if I allocated a % to the overall importance, it'd probably look like 35/50/15 (New/Wife/Seating)

My first thought was a CPO'ed M3, hits all the points above, but the M premium, especially considering the price difference vs. a 335IS and the tuning options for the N5X, I may have bailed, the 335is apparently offers pretty awesome driving dynamics, with a set of CCW/iForged wheels, JB4? Probably fun and massive savings. This was when I still pretty motivated to have some kind of back seat.

A car I hadn't really considered for some reason - which is suddenly very interesting to me, especially with the attractive lease options right now - is the Z4/35is. Hardtop, M components, 335HP N54 motor (assuming a JB away from ~400HP), well appointed, DCT gearbox.

I think it's a fantastic design, and that includes top both up _and_ down, and I've become a huge fan of retractable hardtops. I realize it adds some weight, complexity, cost, but I love how it creates a "coupe" when it's up.

I'm leaning towards the 35is over the 35i, but I'll leave that for another post

Looking forward to comments, questions and input.

[skier]

There is no 'M' components on the Z4 35is. Oh - you mean the stickers

If you're referring to the engine, it's just an N54 with more boost dialed in, nothing any of the tunning options can't take care off.

[[DT]]

Originally Posted by skier

There is no 'M' components on the Z4 35is. Oh - you mean the stickers

If you're referring to the engine, it's just an N54 with more boost dialed in, nothing any of the tunning options can't take care off.

I was under the understanding that the M-Sports package used some components straight from the M parts bin, like the steering wheel[?]

Yeah, I totally understand the electronic tweak the 35is received over the 35i and with a tune, they're effectively equal, though I read the 35is has better/bigger coolers? (radiator and/or OC)

In fact, I'm trying to sort out the two (i/is), and still haven't +completely+ abandoned the idea of the M3/E93 since it adds the back seat option (small, but fine for our tiny person).

[skier]

If you ask me in few weeks how does Z4 35is compare to M3 E93, I'll have tons to share. My current car is an E93 M3. Love it - the sound, the poise, the susspension (EDC) and steering. In few days I'm picking up a Z4 35is at the Welt, and staying in Europe for 3 weeks. By the time I'm done,, there will be about 2500 miles on the odo. One thing is certain - according to BMW USA website, Z4 35is is quicker 0-60 than E93 M3 by 0.1 sec. A proof that E93 M3 is fat (over 4100 lb) and N54 is a sweet engine, with lots of torque. Can't wait for the rumored turbo M3 - refined handling from the M division, and instant torque turbo motor.

[[DT]]

Look forward to hearing your impressions, especially with extended seat time in both. The Euro Delivery sounds like a blast, if the timing was a little different, I might could swing it (visiting with friends in Greece, but next year, and I think I've got this mental ball rolling, i.e., buying sooner than later).

The E93 is definitely porky, though it still works well, and for that matter, the Z4 isn't exactly a lightweight from the constant encroachment of the safety police, B&Ws, etc. It's funny when I get into a really trim car like an Elise, it almost feels +flimsy+.

Enjoy your trip!

[SANguru]

either way you can't lose I am picking on my 35is in a couple weeks at the Welt also and my friend is picking up an E93 M3 and another an E90 M3. Unless you track the car, you won't be able to tell much of difference on the track. The E93 leases are still not bad right now but of course not as a good as the Z4.
The monthly lease difference between the 35is and 35i is negligible. Depending on options, a 35i will actually cost more so you should price out both.

[[DT]]

Haha, yeah, it's kind of a win-win

The current promo on BMW's website shows a 35i, Premium, DCT at $439, and a 35is Premium (DCT and M-Sport standard) at $499, that's pretty trivial.

The woman is actually pretty excited, her Z3 was her favorite car of all time.

[skier219]

My previous car was an S2000. The Z4 is a considerable step up in refinement, comfort, looks, etc, but the S2000 is hands down a better sports car. Still, once I saw the Z4 I was hooked, and I have been real happy with the car. It's a privilege to drive.

[Lewis@MWDesign]

For $10k difference, the 3.5is is not worth it at all. No offense to the 3.5is owners.

I would get the 3.5i w/ M-Sport Package with the Citrus interior, chip it with Dinan (factory warranty included!), coilovers and even a LSD. You would still just be at 3.5is pricing but at 400hp with M like handling from the LSD. Plus you have the luxury of driving a 6spd manual.

[al1]

i just read the first phrase, since you live in a beautiful beach area, z4 is the car that would suit you best..

btw no offense, imo stock honda s2000 is no where close to a z4. it might need some suspension work for a stiffer ride quality but i believe it is superior than a s2000 from every perspective

[al1]

btw if you are mostly interested on the look, boxster spyder is another good cabrio option but pricing would be higher as well

[[DT]]

Originally Posted by skier219

My previous car was an S2000. The Z4 is a considerable step up in refinement, comfort, looks, etc, but the S2000 is hands down a better sports car. Still, once I saw the Z4 I was hooked, and I have been real happy with the car. It's a privilege to drive.

The S2K is a fun little roadster, definitely a really "pure" execution without many bells ~n~ whistles. I had originally intended to buy a C6 Corvette convertible, since I had owned 4 previous Vettes, I have pretty good background with the cars, tuning them, using them on track, common failure points, etc. I bought my last Vette, the Z06, through the factory/museum delivery program (the wife actually convinced me to do it), drove it home from Bowling Green, ~900 miles back to Florida. Beautiful trip through the Blue Ridge mountains.

Anyway, this time around, I wanted to do something different, so I short listed a few cars, and wound up deciding on the S2K since it was inexpensive (just bought it outright) and I've always been a huge fan of the design. Mine is setup pretty nice with aftermarket 18" wheels (SSR), suspension, OEM aero pieces, link to a pic if you're interested:

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...K/1deb0c7e.jpg

Originally Posted by Lewis@MWDesign

For $10k difference, the 3.5is is not worth it at all. No offense to the 3.5is owners.

I would get the 3.5i w/ M-Sport Package with the Citrus interior, chip it with Dinan (factory warranty included!), coilovers and even a LSD. You would still just be at 3.5is pricing but at 400hp with M like handling from the LSD. Plus you have the luxury of driving a 6spd manual.

I guess it depends where you're going with the car in terms of mods and whatnot. I want/ need a DCT car, so that, combined with the M-Sport puts the difference at more like $5K, and then with the 35is you also get a few unique design elements.

I'll almost definitely be tuning/"chipping" it, already doing my research into Burger, ESS, Dinan, but I'm not getting into anything more radical in the aftermarket. I've already done that with a few cars (the most radical was my Supra, you name it, it was done: wheels, suspension, brakes, aero, paint ... the list goes on and on ...)

Originally Posted by al1

i just read the first phrase, since you live in a beautiful beach area, z4 is the car that would suit you best..

btw no offense, imo stock honda s2000 is no where close to a z4. it might need some suspension work for a stiffer ride quality but i believe it is superior than a s2000 from every perspective

It's a great place to live and work. That's one reason we got back into a convertible!

Oh no offense at all, I was kind of aware of where the S2K stacked up in terms of performance, features, etc., and I bought it as kind of a "test", since I had personally never owned a small roadster. I wound up really digging on the experience, and that's one thing that's been driving me toward the Z4 vs. the 335is/M3.

I came *very* close to buying a supercharger on a GP through Science of Speed (nice, well engineered kit), that would've put the power at ~400HP, but that introduces a whole new level of service complexity, and with a clutch, gauges, kit, fuel, easily $10K. For that money, I'd just as soon upgrade everything about the car.

Beyond the looks which I think are stellar on the S2K, the other thing that's a big plus is the exclusivity, talking ~60K in the US since 1999, so while it's not NSX/Supra/Viper production numbers, they're fewer are further between vs. Z4/BS/etc.

Originally Posted by al1

btw if you are mostly interested on the look, Boxster spyder is another good cabrio option but pricing would be higher as well

Love the Spyder (a friend purchased one several months ago), but not interested in the less-than-convenient top mechanism and weight premium, I'd probably opt for the 987 S, 09+ model (facelift, power bump), with PDK, again, looking at something the wife can have fun with too - I'm sure she could learn to operate a manual, but at this point, I want her to be comfortable, and just get in and drive.

I don't mind admitting I don't mind trading a little driver engagement (BS) for tuning potential (Z4). Maybe that's my old school hot rodder coming out or something

[jdogg2000]

Originally Posted by skier

If you ask me in few weeks how does Z4 35is compare to M3 E93, I'll have tons to share. My current car is an E93 M3. Love it - the sound, the poise, the susspension (EDC) and steering. In few days I'm picking up a Z4 35is at the Welt, and staying in Europe for 3 weeks. By the time I'm done,, there will be about 2500 miles on the odo. One thing is certain - according to BMW USA website, Z4 35is is quicker 0-60 than E93 M3 by 0.1 sec. A proof that E93 M3 is fat (over 4100 lb) and N54 is a sweet engine, with lots of torque. Can't wait for the rumored turbo M3 - refined handling from the M division, and instant torque turbo motor.

I very much look forward to your impressions as well, since I'm a few months away from lease end on my E93 M3 and I've been considering a move into a z4. I like the MT too much to switch to DCT, so I'm looking at the 3.5i and will probably do something simple like install the JB+.

[skier219]

DT that is a sweet S!

To me, the weak areas of the Z4 compared to the S2000 are steering/handling, clutch, and shifter. I know part of it is the run-flat tires, but overall the Z4 has a bit of a vague feel in steering accuracy, and the handling has some initial numbness when both are compared to the scalpel-like feel of the S2000. I do find that the Z4 handles better at higher extremes though, especially compared to 06+ S2K models that want to understeer with stock settings.

As far as the shifter goes, it's no contest. The shifter in the Z4 is unremarkable in every sense of the word. No complaints, but it's just not anything to write home about. In contrast, the S2K shifter continues to be tops in my experience. After driving/owning many sports cars over the years, I still consider the S2k shifter to be the benchmark. I also find the Z4 clutch to be a bit tractor like, in that it catches low, engages high, and is kind of soft. It's not as satisfying as the balanced bite of the S2K. Of course, if you go with the DCT, neither of those factors will matter.

Interesting you were into Vettes -- after many years of wanting one, I finally got the means to do it and wound up being disappointed with the general fit and finish of the C6, especially the interior. I know it has made big strides compared to past generations, but it has still got a way to go for the money. In comparison, the interior of the Z4 is quite good -- and in certain color schemes, it's a work of art. Definitely one of the nicest interiors I have experienced in a while.

[[DT]]

Originally Posted by skier219

DT that is a sweet S!

To me, the weak areas of the Z4 compared to the S2000 are steering/handling, clutch, and shifter. I know part of it is the run-flat tires, but overall the Z4 has a bit of a vague feel in steering accuracy, and the handling has some initial numbness when both are compared to the scalpel-like feel of the S2000. I do find that the Z4 handles better at higher extremes though, especially compared to 06+ S2K models that want to understeer with stock settings.

As far as the shifter goes, it's no contest. The shifter in the Z4 is unremarkable in every sense of the word. No complaints, but it's just not anything to write home about. In contrast, the S2K shifter continues to be tops in my experience. After driving/owning many sports cars over the years, I still consider the S2k shifter to be the benchmark. I also find the Z4 clutch to be a bit tractor like, in that it catches low, engages high, and is kind of soft. It's not as satisfying as the balanced bite of the S2K. Of course, if you go with the DCT, neither of those factors will matter.

Interesting you were into Vettes -- after many years of wanting one, I finally got the means to do it and wound up being disappointed with the general fit and finish of the C6, especially the interior. I know it has made big strides compared to past generations, but it has still got a way to go for the money. In comparison, the interior of the Z4 is quite good -- and in certain color schemes, it's a work of art. Definitely one of the nicest interiors I have experienced in a while.

Thanks. The trick with visual/aesthetic mods - for me at least - is less is more. I don't know if it's the Japanese import market and/or the age of many S owners, but there are some _horrific_ cars, with poor fitting body kits, crazy (and non-functional) giant wings, wild wheel offsets/fitment/camber configurations. Each to their own I guess

The S shifter is phenomenal. No doubt the best OEM setup I've ever driven (and that's a pretty wide range of vehicles, 911, Elise, Viper, NSX, Z3, M-cars, C5/C6 Vettes ...). The thing with the S, is the whole package is very kinetic, and everything happens in such short order, it's fun around town, in the 0-50MPH range, where you're banging through gears quickly, the engine winds up super fast, it like a go-kart. Recently though, I've gotten a little tired of the buzzy, loud, go-kart-ish-ness.

I was up in DC on some business, wound up flying out of Orlando, and when I got back in late, I would've loved to have had a car with a nice quiet, calm ride to drive the 2+ hours back home. I mean, I've considered buying a M3 Sedan w/ DCT or an IS-F, keeping the S, so I'd have both, but that still wouldn't let the wife operate the convertible, plus managing three cars is a little much (did it for a few years).

Vettes are a terrific value, and have a really fun history. The V8s in modern Vettes are efficient, effective, give the car a low CoG, and with $3K of cam/headers/tune put out 500+ HP.

The engineering is outstanding but the quality of materials, some design choices, etc., are really bad. My Z06 had some of the worst seating ever in a performance car (the S2K is actually very good). The Z06 doesn't even have seats as good as the optional sport seats in the regular car, they're actually _base_ seats with Z06 embroidered in the headrest. I wound up putting in a set of Carvaggio sport seats in mine.

I thought the interior in our X5 was pretty excellent, we had the optional sport package with the nicer seats, all the switch gear was solid, nice, clean, typically German ergonomics. Funny, I used to dismiss the interior as a part of the car that had little to no impact on the overall ownership experience, but did a 180 in the past several years. The E89 interior looks excellent, and like you said, with the right mix of trim, color, etc., is pretty stunning.

[Silver-Bolt]

My chief complaint with the "is" is the steering. Drive one before you commit.

[[DT]]

Originally Posted by Silver-Bolt

My chief complaint with the "is" is the steering. Drive one before you commit.

Definitely. We're current traveling (double duty trip, family and business), but when we get back and I get a few things off my plate, I'm going to coordinate a test drive.

Am I understanding it correctly, that the 35i, even with the same package (M-Sport) doesn't have quite the same suspension as the 35is?

I've read dozens of posts comparing the two, and I'm still not 100% clear on what's just an optional package as standard and what's unique to the 35is.

[Rac10000]

Originally Posted by Silver-Bolt

My chief complaint with the "is" is the steering. Drive one before you commit.

I have heard it is on the heavy side but lacks some feel ... would you agree?

[skier219]

Originally Posted by [DT]

Thanks. The trick with visual/aesthetic mods - for me at least - is less is more. I don't know if it's the Japanese import market and/or the age of many S owners, but there are some _horrific_ cars, with poor fitting body kits, crazy (and non-functional) giant wings, wild wheel offsets/fitment/camber configurations. Each to their own I guess

I think it's mostly age, since older S2Ks are definitely affordable to kids. I see a lot of questionable mods out on the road. I kept my two S2Ks very close to stock with only minor tweaks to the styling. One of the best things I did was get the factory hardtop on my second S2K, and it really made the car (well, from Nov-March that is).

Recently though, I've gotten a little tired of the buzzy, loud, go-kart-ish-ness.

That is one of the big things that I liked about the Z4 after test driving -- it's a lot more comfortable in comparison. I commuted 70 miles a day for about 5 years in my S2Ks, and in retrospect, that was brutal. In fact, I was cruising home from work in my S one day when a E89 Z4 slipped by gracefully, and really caught my attention. I was hooked at that point, to the point where the money in my wallet started smoldering.

The test drive of the Z brought out a few things I didn't like (steering, shifter, feel of the run flat tires) but everything else about the car was a dream.

If you drive the S2K and Z4 back to back, be prepared for the Z4 to feel a bit ponderous at first. I used to think the S2K was like stepping into a good pair of running shoes, since you tend to "wear" the car and all the actions are so sharp that it's a very intimate driving experience. The Z4 is considerably more isolated, and is not a "strap it on" roadster the S2K is (few cars are). But the flip side of the coin means it's a lot more comfortable and livable, and the refined interior is roomier and a lot more pleasant.

By the way, I have the M sport seats in my Z4, and they are quite good -- a little roomier than the S2K's smallish seats for sure.

The only other big deal for me was the retractable hardtop of the Z4. I am loving that. It's perfect top up or down, and makes for an outstanding year-round car.

[Silver-Bolt]

Originally Posted by Rac10000

I have heard it is on the heavy side but lacks some feel ... would you agree?

The issue is the variable steering. At about 90 degrees on the steering wheel it feels as if the wheel sticks. It is a very unnerving feeling and upsets the balance of the car. It is some what less in Sport mode or Sports-+ but it is still there. For me it's bad enough that unless BMW does some major work on the system I will not own another one. My preference would have been to not have it however on the "is" you do not have that option. The magazine reviews on the "is" are spot on regarding the steering issue. Read the reviews and drive an "is".

[Rac10000]

Originally Posted by Silver-Bolt

The issue is the variable steering. At about 90 degrees on the steering wheel it feels as if the wheel sticks. It is a very unnerving feeling and upsets the balance of the car. It is some what less in Sport mode or Sports-+ but it is still there. For me it's bad enough that unless BMW does some major work on the system I will not own another one. My preference would have been to not have it however on the "is" you do not have that option. The magazine reviews on the "is" are spot on regarding the steering issue. Read the reviews and drive an "is".

hmmm .... I didn't have a chance to drive a 35is before ordering one ... but there is no steering option on the 35i either ... I read a bunch of reviews and I don't expect the steering to feel like my old E46 M3 did ... but I also don't expect it to be horrible (especially not in Sport or Sport+ mode). What do you think about the handling and the rest of the driving experience?

[[DT]]

Originally Posted by skier219

That is one of the big things that I liked about the Z4 after test driving -- it's a lot more comfortable in comparison. I commuted 70 miles a day for about 5 years in my S2Ks, and in retrospect, that was brutal. In fact, I was cruising home from work in my S one day when a E89 Z4 slipped by gracefully, and really caught my attention. I was hooked at that point, to the point where the money in my wallet started smoldering.

The test drive of the Z brought out a few things I didn't like (steering, shifter, feel of the run flat tires) but everything else about the car was a dream.

If you drive the S2K and Z4 back to back, be prepared for the Z4 to feel a bit ponderous at first. I used to think the S2K was like stepping into a good pair of running shoes, since you tend to "wear" the car and all the actions are so sharp that it's a very intimate driving experience. The Z4 is considerably more isolated, and is not a "strap it on" roadster the S2K is (few cars are). But the flip side of the coin means it's a lot more comfortable and livable, and the refined interior is roomier and a lot more pleasant.

By the way, I have the M sport seats in my Z4, and they are quite good -- a little roomier than the S2K's smallish seats for sure.

The only other big deal for me was the retractable hardtop of the Z4. I am loving that. It's perfect top up or down, and makes for an outstanding year-round car.

Yeah, the Z4 E89 is one of the few smaller-ish roadsters I think looks as good exterior-wise as the S, well, actually I think it takes some good aftermarket wheels and the small rear deck spoiler to really make the S shine.

The interior on the S is well pretty put together, but very minimal as you know, and there is some [price limited] so-so materials (the door panels, center console are some kind of "plinyl"). Seats are great, though when I first bought it, I had no idea they were theft targets! I guess they bolt into Civics and whatnot, plus they're like $3K each from Honda.

The OEM audio is _bad_, I pulled it, added a nice Alpine HU running active with a Sundown Amp, Hertz components, it's better, but missing low-mid, the amp needs to be mounted, etc., I'm just not into all the re-engineering to get decent sound, and I generally like the premium audio option from most OEMs.

Strange thing: I can't seem to select the Premium Audio option on the BMW (USA) website. You can select the Premium Package, but not toggle the upgraded audio[?] Is there some other dependency like you have to go with the navigation?

I'm actually OK with a more isolated experience, as long as it's still fun. If I wanted something that provided the best on-track experience plus a nice usable vehicle, I'd probably turn to a Boxster S, but there's something about that car that doesn't "do it" for me. Heck, I had a great time with my C5 Coupe, and that's a model that's known for next to no steering feedback, sloppy turn in, etc., because at the end of the day, it was still effective and fun on track and was a great DD (when I still DD'ed ... I did eventually make it too harsh by swapping out to T1 spec suspension components).

I really like the retractable HTs, like I said, I get the downsides, but for a really nice all around vehicle, I think they're outstanding. I'm a *huge* fan of the Z4 Coupe, and with the E89 you get a little Coupe with your Roadster