M3 generation with Best Side Mirrors?

[cenix]

the e36 mirrors were sexy and also worked well, too. also seen lots of honda ricers with these mirrors.

[Chihuahua]

E36 had the best mirrors

[RocketBoots]

The E30 got a vote, haha

Now that I look at the F8X a little more, it has an extra sculpted edge I didn't notice before. Not sure if F3X's have this, but it's pretty cool. For me, still E36.

[chris82]

I like E9x, F8x don't look quite as good

[Bryant@TMB]

F82 all the way. But F9x is close behind.

[SickFinga]

Originally Posted by Law

Actually, the mirrors on the E36 predate the E36 M3 and were known as BMW Motorsport mirrors.
They were even OEM on the 850CSi and certain MY E34 M5s (1993 i believe, along with BMW Motorsport door handles).

They do not predate E36. They were designed for the E36 M3

[moonsault270]

Originally Posted by cenix

the e36 mirrors were sexy and also worked well, too. also seen lots of honda ricers with these mirrors.

Got that right.That was the first mod we did on our civics 20 something years ago... right before our illuminated gauge clusters!!

[Law]

Originally Posted by SickFinga

They do not predate E36. They were designed for the E36 M3

Wrong.
See my post again and OEM BMW catalog photos.

The E31 850CSi had those mirrors as standard equipment since beginning of its production (European spec) in Aug. 1992.
The E34 M5 had those mirrors beginning Sept. 1992 production (coinciding with the start of production of European E36 M3).

So yes, the mirrors do indeed predate the E36 M3 (even if by a month) and were designed for more than one application.

[SickFinga]

Originally Posted by Law

Wrong.
See my post again and OEM BMW catalog photos.

The E31 850CSi had those mirrors as standard equipment since beginning of its production (European spec) in Aug. 1992.
The E34 M5 had those mirrors beginning Sept. 1992 production (coinciding with the start of production of European E36 M3).

So yes, the mirrors do indeed predate the E36 M3 (even if by a month) and were designed for more than one application.

This is the first E34 M5 with these mirrors. Notice how BMW refers to them

[IEDEI]

definitely E9X.....the 1M got the same mirrors too!

[Law]

Originally Posted by SickFinga

This is the first E34 M5 with these mirrors. Notice how BMW refers to them

Actually the VIN# you provided is from the M5 20 Jahre Edition, a special edition celebrating 20 years of the M5.
It is not the first E34 M5 equipped with those mirrors.
A total of 20 were made with the following VINs and VIN ranges:
GD63473
GD63475-GD63479
GD63481
GD63483
GD63486
GD63488-GD63498

When you run the VINs of the 20 Jahre E34s, there is a separate "Individual vehicle data/Individualasstattung" section, which lists additional data.

Notice if you run the VINs of those produced just before, just after, or in between, the Jahre editions, there is no supplemental appendix listing "individual" specs. I ran the VINs of several E34 M5s HC91/HD93 from 08/92 to early '93 and none of them had this unique appendix of individual parts.
Not sure why BMW did this, but what it tells me is that the individual breakdown is only provided when running the VINs of 20 Jahre M5s.




But this certainly does not mean that the 20 Jahre M5 exclusively had those mirrors fitted, nor does it prove that it was the first. As i mentioned earlier, the first E34 M5s were fitted with these mirrors beginning with 08/1992 production, months before the first 20 Jahre M5 (Oct. 1992).


How do i know the VIN sheet doesn't list all features?
One way to test the accuracy of the VIN sheet is to run an E34 M5 that was fitted with the mirrors from the factory and see if it shows up on the VIN sheet.
I found a window sticker of a US-spec (MY1993) that was fitted with the mirrors. The window sticker lists the mirrors "AERODYNAMIC MOTORSPORT MIRRORS" as standard equipment, but it is not shown in the VIN sheet (many other features listed on the window sticker are also omitted in the VIN sheet).




Therefore, the VIN sheet is not a reliable method of determining which E34 M5 was fitted with the mirrors and when.
There may be a VIN range out there that includes 08/1992 production onward, but running a single VIN# and looking at the sheet alone does not tell the whole story.
My point still stands. The E31 850CSi (Euro) and the E34 M5 (from 08/1992 prod.) were equipped with aerodynamically styled mirrors commonly known as Motorsport mirrors or M-Technic mirrors (and subsequently as E36 M3 mirrors) were not exclusive to the E36 M3, nor was the E36 M3 the first car fitted with this style of mirror, however you want to call it.

[SickFinga]

Originally Posted by Law

Actually the VIN# you provided is from the M5 20 Jahre Edition, a special edition celebrating 20 years of the M5.

It is the 20 Jahre edition and E36 M3 mirrors were part of the "edition". It was one of the special feature that was not available on other E34s at that time.

Originally Posted by Law

When you run the VINs of the 20 Jahre E34s, there is a separate "Individual vehicle data/Individualasstattung" section, which lists additional data.

Notice if you run the VINs of those produced just before, just after, or in between, the Jahre editions, there is no supplemental appendix listing "individual" specs. I ran the VINs of several E34 M5s HC91/HD93 from 08/92 to early '93 and none of them had this unique appendix of individual parts.
Not sure why BMW did this, but what it tells me is that the individual breakdown is only provided when running the VINs of 20 Jahre M5s.

The reason why it is listed under Individual is because those mirrors were not a regular option on E34 at that time.

Originally Posted by Law

But this certainly does not mean that the 20 Jahre M5 exclusively had those mirrors fitted, nor does it prove that it was the first. As i mentioned earlier, the first E34 M5s were fitted with these mirrors beginning with 08/1992 production, months before the first 20 Jahre M5 (Oct. 1992).

Do you have proof of an E34 M5 built on 08/92 with M mirrors?
Because I got German price list for 09/92 and it doesn't list M mirrors, however they are on the price list for 05/93

Originally Posted by Law

How do i know the VIN sheet doesn't list all features?
One way to test the accuracy of the VIN sheet is to run an E34 M5 that was fitted with the mirrors from the factory and see if it shows up on the VIN sheet.
I found a window sticker of a US-spec (MY1993) that was fitted with the mirrors. The window sticker lists the mirrors "AERODYNAMIC MOTORSPORT MIRRORS" as standard equipment, but it is not shown in the VIN sheet (many other features listed on the window sticker are also omitted in the VIN sheet).

Therefore, the VIN sheet is not a reliable method of determining which E34 M5 was fitted with the mirrors and when.

The reason why they are not listed on the build sheet is because they were standard equipment. That's how early build sheets work. However, ECE cars have those mirrors listed on the build sheets because they were optional. They became available as an option on 03/93

First ECE car with the option S784A is GD63659, regular production started with this VIN GD63771

Originally Posted by Law

There may be a VIN range out there that includes 08/1992 production onward, but running a single VIN# and looking at the sheet alone does not tell the whole story.
My point still stands. The E31 850CSi (Euro) and the E34 M5 (from 08/1992 prod.) were equipped with aerodynamically styled mirrors commonly known as Motorsport mirrors or M-Technic mirrors (and subsequently as E36 M3 mirrors) were not exclusive to the E36 M3, nor was the E36 M3 the first car fitted with this style of mirror, however you want to call it.

And my point is that if you look at BMW's own data you can clearly see that they refer to the mirrors as "ZS-mirrors, like E36 M3". Nowhere I said that they were E36 M3 exclusive, I said that they were originally designed for the E36 M3.

[knevel]

Hate the new 3/4-series mirrors. Boxy and small, and like much of the rest of the design language, comes across as trying too hard yet falling far short.

The E36 mirrors were pretty sweet, wasn't a very similar design available for the E30s and labeled as DTM or motorsport or some such? Kind of small glass profile. I would say E9x takes the cake, having a similar design to the E36 mirrors, larger surface area, and adding the carbon fiber caps.

[Law]

Originally Posted by SickFinga

It is the 20 Jahre edition and E36 M3 mirrors were part of the "edition". It was one of the special feature that was not available on other E34s at that time.
The reason why it is listed under Individual is because those mirrors were not a regular option on E34 at that time.

Makes sense based on what you say below about ECE cars having the mirrors as "optional".

Originally Posted by SickFinga

Do you have proof of an E34 M5 built on 08/92 with M mirrors?
Because I got German price list for 09/92 and it doesn't list M mirrors, however they are on the price list for 05/93

I apologize for that typo. I meant Sept. 1992 as in my original post but let's carry on. My sources are not OEM like yours, but ultimately these are reputable sources & consistently list the same Sept. 92 changes. See below:

September 1991 (the 1992 model-year) brought the taller final drive already mentioned, together with the lighter clutch and Servotronic M steering used on the new 3.8-litre models in other markets. The 3.8-litre style of sill kick-plates seem to have arrived slightly later in the 1992 model-year. September 1992 (the 1993 model year) brought the M System 11 wheels of the 3.8-litre cars. Shadowline window trim and M Sport mirrors became standard, and 'BMW Motorsport' was embossed on the front exterior door handles. Interior changes brought tricolour stitching for the steering wheel and Bird's Eye Maple wood trim (except on Canadian cars with the 'Extended Leather' option).

Original BMW M-Series by James Taylor (p. 107)

For the final 1993 model year (starting 9/92 production), the North American M5 was given some cosmetic updates, many of which were first introduced on the Euro-spec 3.8-liter model:
-Granite Silver metallic (237) lower aero panels in place of Sebring Grey metallic (229)
-M System II ("throwing star") wheel covers in place of M System I ("turbine")
-M-Technic side rear-view mirrors in place of the standard 5 Series versions
-Shadowline exterior trim in place of chrome* (*starting with VIN BK06442)
-Front exterior door handles embossed with "BMW Motorsport" text
-Birds-eye maple wood trim added in either a gray or black stain (not available with extended leather option on Canadian models)
-M tri-color stitching added to the airbag steering wheel rim
-Brilliant Red (308) paint replaced by Mugello Red (274) paint
-Lagoon Green metallic (266) and Avus Blue metallic (276) paints available (Lagoon Green metallic for USA only)


http://www.bmwmregistry.com/model_faq.php?id=12

Originally Posted by SickFinga

The reason why they are not listed on the build sheet is because they were standard equipment. That's how early build sheets work. However, ECE cars have those mirrors listed on the build sheets because they were optional. They became available as an option on 03/93

Makes sense. You're right about the ECE cars.
However, the 09/92 date only applies to US cars from my research.
Since the 09/92+ US E34 M5s had these standard, they would not show up as an "option" on your VIN data sheets, so that's why you don't see it.

Originally Posted by SickFinga

First ECE car with the option S784A is GD63659, regular production started with this VIN GD63771

And my point is that if you look at BMW's own data you can clearly see that they refer to the mirrors as "ZS-mirrors, like E36 M3". Nowhere I said that they were E36 M3 exclusive, I said that they were originally designed for the E36 M3.

Yes i noticed that internal reference.
While the specific part# for the mirror on the E34/E36 may have been described internally by BMW as such, my point is that the M-technic/motorsport style of aero mirrors still predates the E36, it first appeared on the E31 (as a different part#).

[Law]

The first VIN that had the Sept. 1992 changes was BK06442 according to BMW M Registry.

A quick decode indeed shows 09/92 production and a quick search yielded this FS ad on BMWCCA's classifieds.

Posted by: fitzhugh

Description: 1993 M5 White w/ black interior 77,500 miles.Great condition, well maintained, all original but for B&B stainless exhaust and Autothority chip. 350HP and runs beautifully. Leather seats, throwing star wheels, Motorsport mirrors. A fine example of this last of the E34 M5s. All service records. VIN: WBSHD9319PBK06442

While the photograph is no longer active, the ad lists "Leather seats, throwing star wheels, Motorsport mirrors" as its features, consistent with my sources.

[Law]

EG91: European-spec (LHD), 08/1992 through 10/1996
EG92: European-spec (RHD), 06/1993 through 06/1996
--------------------------------------------------------------------
How does the exterior of the 850CSi differ cosmetically from that of other 8 Series?
Aside from its M-designed 17- or 18-inch wheels, the exterior of the 850CSi is distinguished by a unique front fascia that includes a deeper front airdam and air intake, more pronounced side sills and four round exhaust tips, two pairs on either side of a "diffuser" panel under the bumper. European-spec models also feature aerodynamic M rear-view mirrors, while U.S.-spec cars have unique door handles that are embossed with "BMW Motorsport" script. An "850CSi" badge appears on the trunk lid, but there are no M badges on the exterior of the car.

http://www.bmwmregistry.com/model_faq.php?id=11

[SickFinga]

Originally Posted by Law

I apologize for that typo. I meant Sept. 1992 as in my original post but let's carry on. My sources are not OEM like yours, but ultimately these are reputable sources & consistently list the same Sept. 92 changes. See below:

Of course they list them as 09/92. That's when the US model year switch over happened.

Originally Posted by Law

Makes sense. You're right about the ECE cars.

My point about the 20 Jahre car is that the individual data is written out and you can clearly see how BMW described the mirrors

Originally Posted by Law

Since the 09/92+ US E34 M5s had these standard, they would not show up as an "option" on your VIN data sheets, so that's why you don't see it.

This is pretty much word for word of what I said

Originally Posted by Law

Yes i noticed that internal reference.
While the specific part# for the mirror on the E34/E36 may have been described internally by BMW as such, my point is that the M-technic/motorsport style of aero mirrors still predates the E36, it first appeared on the E31 (as a different part#).

E34 and E36 do not share the same part number, yet again BMW referred to the as E36 M3 mirrors on the build sheet.

[Law]

Originally Posted by SickFinga

Of course they list them as 09/92. That's when the US model year switch over happened.

You say "of course" now, but earlier you claimed that the first E34 M5 with those mirrors was produced Oct. 1992, when it fact it was Sept. 1992. and asked me for sources in disagreement.

Originally Posted by SickFinga

My point about the 20 Jahre car is that the individual data is written out and you can clearly see how BMW described the mirrors

E34 and E36 do not share the same part number, yet again BMW referred to the as E36 M3 mirrors on the build sheet.

We both know the reference "ZS-außenspiegel, wie E36 M3" say the mirrors are like the ones found on the E36 M3.
Which is rather a convenient reference considering the E36 M3 was mass-produced and every single one of them had the M-Technic mirrors as standard. Compare with the lower-production E34 M5 where the mirrors were first equipped post-09/92.

The reference does not, however, imply that the mirrors debuted first on the E36, nor does it imply they were designed specifically for the E36, especially since:
1) the US E34 M5 received M-Technic mirrors at the same time the Euro E36 M3 began production (09/92),
2) the E31 850CSi began production & featured M-Technic mirrors a month prior to the events listed in #1.

The style of mirrors known as M-Technic mirrors predate the E36 M3.

[rjd598]

i can't believe the f8x got that many votes versus the e36. the e36 and e9x have the best mirrors for sure. which one is better is really hard to say but i would probably say the e9x since the visibility of the e36 isn't the same as the e9x. i like the f8x mirrors too, but the real order should go e9x>e36>f8x

[SickFinga]

Originally Posted by Law

You say "of course" now, but earlier you claimed that the first E34 M5 with those mirrors was produced Oct. 1992, when it fact it was Sept. 1992. and asked me for sources in disagreement.

I just reread my first comment and I meant to say first ECE M5. Trust me, you are not telling me anything new with the M's. I've researched BMWMREGISTRY probably more than anyone. I've contributed to it and made corrections there. I know the E34 M5 dates and options very well. In fact I can also tell you that those mirrors were installed on E34 M5 even earlier than that(02/92), but it was a pre-production car.

My emphasis in that post was not that it was the first M5, but how the mirrors were referred as.

Originally Posted by Law

We both know the reference "ZS-außenspiegel, wie E36 M3" say the mirrors are like the ones found on the E36 M3.
Which is rather a convenient reference considering the E36 M3 was mass-produced and every single one of them had the M-Technic mirrors as standard. Compare with the lower-production E34 M5 where the mirrors were first equipped post-09/92.


The reference does not, however, imply that the mirrors debuted first on the E36, nor does it imply they were designed specifically for the E36, especially since:
1) the US E34 M5 received M-Technic mirrors at the same time the Euro E36 M3 began production (09/92),
2) the E31 850CSi began production & featured M-Technic mirrors a month prior to the events listed in #1.

The style of mirrors known as M-Technic mirrors predate the E36 M3.

When production began and when things were developed are two different things. So the whole E34 M5 argument is pretty weak. M3 was designed years before the US 93 M5. 850CSi is a much better argument, but I in my opinion BMW referring to the mirrors as "E36 M3-like" beats it.

[dbworld4k]

Not even a question. E36 by far. It was so iconic that tonnes of other car groups started making replica E36 M3 mirrors for their cars.