Next generation 6 Series a 911 competitor?

[supra93]

Rumors are saying with a larger new 8 that the next gen 6 will be smaller and lighter, think 911 fighter.

[jts1981]

Originally Posted by supra93

Rumors are saying with a larger new 8 that the next gen 6 will be smaller and lighter, think 911 fighter.

Stop saying 911 fighter. No where has BMW ever said that. BMW did say they are NOT a sportscar company. They will never make a 2 seater sports car to rival 911, or R8.

N E V E R

[supra93]

Originally Posted by jts1981

Stop saying 911 fighter. No where has BMW ever said that. BMW did say they are NOT a sportscar company. They will never make a 2 seater sports car to rival 911, or R8.

N E V E R

Those aren't my words, just repeating what everyone else is saying.

[jts1981]

Originally Posted by supra93

Those aren't my words, just repeating what everyone else is saying.

Only forum members are spreading that rumour. No one to date has been able to quote offical BMW reports. So just stop. There will never be a 911 fight, or 911 anything. Bmw moto is "sheer driving pleasure". In recent history they never claimed "ultimate driving machine:.

[MalibuBimmer]

Originally Posted by jts1981

Only forum members are spreading that rumour. No one to date has been able to quote offical BMW reports. So just stop. There will never be a 911 fight, or 911 anything. Bmw moto is "sheer driving pleasure". In recent history they never claimed "ultimate driving machine:"

No. BMW's motto is "Ultimate Driving Machine."

http://www.bmwstyle.tv/the-ultimate-driving-campaign/

[supra93]

Originally Posted by jts1981

Only forum members are spreading that rumour. No one to date has been able to quote offical BMW reports. So just stop. There will never be a 911 fight, or 911 anything. Bmw moto is "sheer driving pleasure". In recent history they never claimed "ultimate driving machine:.

Yes, didn't I say online rumors? I never said anything about a BMW press release or a BMW official going on record.

Rumor mill =

Most exciting, though, is that BMW has had a major last-minute rethink about the next-gen 6 Series, which is earmarked for 2018/2019. R&D has reportedly axed the cabriolet, and the 6 Series Gran Coupé will almost certainly disappear if the 9 Series is signed off on, leaving us only with a four-passenger coupe. It’s currently a good-looking but overweight and somewhat ponderous grand tourer, but the follow-up model is due to lose some 500 pounds, adopt BMW’s new CLAR platform, and have optional air suspension, rear-wheel steering, and a brand-new quad-turbo inline-six producing some 550 hp. Heralded internally as a Porsche 911 fighter, this marginally more compact upmarket coupe may well pick up the red thread BMW lost when its discontinued the 3.0 CSL more than 40 years ago.

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/wi...e-911-fighter/

[mkoesel]

There are believable rumors and then there are those that are not.

Think like a business. Do you spend significant resources on this collaborative sports car effort with another manufacturer only then to go back and at the same time try to concoct a 911-aping dream machine on your family sedan architecture?

None of it makes any sense.

[supra93]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

There are believable rumors and then there are those that are not.

Think like a business. Do you spend significant resources on this collaborative sports car effort with another manufacturer only then to go back and at the same time try to concoct a 911-aping dream machine on your family sedan architecture?

None of it makes any sense.

Honestly I don't know what to believe these days. Automakers have done things that do not make sense to the average joe. With that said I believe very old rumors of a larger BMW Z7 and a Lexus ZC/ZR would make more sense than a 6er 911 fighter. But who really knows what they have in store; we'll just have to wait and see.

[mkoesel]

A Z7 is actually a scenario that strikes me as making even less sense than trying to compete with the 911 using a non-purpose-built sports car.

I like to think that collectively we are a bit more on top of the industry here at BimmerPost than this "average joe" you mention.

It's pretty clear at this point that the proliferation of light trucks as family vehicles is rather rapidly shrinking the passenger car market. The tried and true case for sports cars is perhaps the most vulnerable because being driven is the new driving. Mercedes is as we speak trying to figure out how to kill off at least one of their legacy sports cars - maybe both. The last thing BMW needs is a Z7 that they too would be trying to figure out what the heck to do with in very short order.

Furthermore, we know there is a G32 6 Series GT coming to replace the 5 Series GT. Adding a sports car model to that lineup would be marketing equivalent of GM selling a two seat Escalade Z06. You wouldn't believe that'll happen right? No. And rightly so, because it makes no sense.

Originally Posted by supra93

Honestly I don't know what to believe these days. Automakers have done things that do not make sense to the average joe. With that said I believe very old rumors of a larger BMW Z7 and a Lexus ZC/ZR would make more sense than a 6er 911 fighter. But who really knows what they have in store; we'll just have to wait and see.

[SCOTT26]

The market for Roadsters is in its death throes. Originally there were plans on paper to increase the Roadster family at the time but until market reaction on G29 there is no official commitment on expanding the series.
Development and material sharing with Toyota allows greater economies of scale.

The current 6er moves to the 8er in Coupe,Cabrio and Gran Coupe as before and will be offered with M.Performance and Full BMW M and BMW M CS.
The plans to do with the 6er replacement are on ice at the moment as BMW seeks to offer an expanded and renewed portfolio within the next two years.

The X7 is especially important as the luxury sedan segment is being infiltrated by luxury SUVs more so in the USA.
But also the latest BMW sustainability report has arrived and it shows BMW are well on target and ahead of their main competitors. A momentum that will also continue as the chosen strategy.

The 9er is a different model and would sit above the 7er in regards to offering a much demanded and exclusive take on a BMW. Its chosen time for arrival would be at the moment the luxury car market will hit 1 million units plus for luxury plus vehicles.

[supra93]

As I said before, who really knows. I never said for a fact that they will do xyz.

Not too long ago everyone said no way BMW will ever built a sports car with Toyota. Its never going to happen. BMW will never sink that low. Toyota fan boys said the same thing. It didn't make any sense. If they wanted a new Supra it will probably be a shorten reskin RC-F. And now, surprise surprise.

My point is not none of us really know whats going to happen. Again, not saying if they will or not do xzy. Just bring up past rumors and chatting with other people. And yes I do agree with a lot of you on the point of the shrinking market for cars like this.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

A Z7 is actually a scenario that strikes me as making even less sense than trying to compete with the 911 using a non-purpose-built sports car.

I like to think that collectively we are a bit more on top of the industry here at BimmerPost than this "average joe" you mention.

It's pretty clear at this point that the proliferation of light trucks as family vehicles is rather rapidly shrinking the passenger car market. The tried and true case for sports cars is perhaps the most vulnerable because being driven is the new driving. Mercedes is as we speak trying to figure out how to kill off at least one of their legacy sports cars - maybe both. The last thing BMW needs is a Z7 that they too would be trying to figure out what the heck to do with in very short order.

Furthermore, we know there is a G32 6 Series GT coming to replace the 5 Series GT. Adding a sports car model to that lineup would be marketing equivalent of GM selling a two seat Escalade Z06. You wouldn't believe that'll happen right? No. And rightly so, because it makes no sense.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

A Z7 is actually a scenario that strikes me as making even less sense than trying to compete with the 911 using a non-purpose-built sports car.

I like to think that collectively we are a bit more on top of the industry here at BimmerPost than this "average joe" you mention.

It's pretty clear at this point that the proliferation of light trucks as family vehicles is rather rapidly shrinking the passenger car market. The tried and true case for sports cars is perhaps the most vulnerable because being driven is the new driving. Mercedes is as we speak trying to figure out how to kill off at least one of their legacy sports cars - maybe both. The last thing BMW needs is a Z7 that they too would be trying to figure out what the heck to do with in very short order.

Furthermore, we know there is a G32 6 Series GT coming to replace the 5 Series GT. Adding a sports car model to that lineup would be marketing equivalent of GM selling a two seat Escalade Z06. You wouldn't believe that'll happen right? No. And rightly so, because it makes no sense.

Good points.

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The market for Roadsters is in its death throes. Originally there were plans on paper to increase the Roadster family at the time but until market reaction on G29 there is no official commitment on expanding the series.
Development and material sharing with Toyota allows greater economies of scale.

The current 6er moves to the 8er in Coupe,Cabrio and Gran Coupe as before and will be offered with M.Performance and Full BMW M and BMW M CS.
The plans to do with the 6er replacement are on ice at the moment as BMW seeks to offer an expanded and renewed portfolio within the next two years.

The X7 is especially important as the luxury sedan segment is being infiltrated by luxury SUVs more so in the USA.
But also the latest BMW sustainability report has arrived and it shows BMW are well on target and ahead of their main competitors. A momentum that will also continue as the chosen strategy.

The 9er is a different model and would sit above the 7er in regards to offering a much demanded and exclusive take on a BMW. Its chosen time for arrival would be at the moment the luxury car market will hit 1 million units plus for luxury plus vehicles.

More good points. There's a very small hardcore 2 seater drop top base out there, even smaller for a 2 seat coupe varient. The economic and logistic realities of having a limited use 2 seat toy--passengers, cargo, cost of ownership--just aren't there.

Younger folks who can "get away" with a 2 seater are going to go cheaper (Mazda) or used (S2K, used Z4, which is a great bargain).

Those perhaps with a few more means and a bit older (with kids usually) will go for a 4 seater vert if going drop top. A 4+ seater vert is middle range for price and the car can pack kids, kid supplies, and a bunch of other things and two adults. (I have many friends in this category--they all crossed of the Z platform because of the multi-use case required with kids.)

Those with more means who are either older (no kids) and/or much wealthier will go top of the line for a focused sports car (not build on a sedan chassis) such 911 variant, a top end Cayman, a Jag or Aston, or ***gasp*** a Corvette. or maybe even a Harley or "tricycle". Those above that level can pick from a new Turbo or A GT3RS or 991.2 GT3, or a Ferrari or a Lambo. Hey, if it's a toy, and you can have one, why not?

Porsche, for good or ill, has the brand and reputation as "the" 2 seater sports car--BMW can't compete in that area no matter how good the product is. I think the Z4M is a wonderful product that always puts a smile on my face--and I've owned 911 variants including GT3s and Caymans--but it's never going to have the 2 seater brand/legacy of a Porsche, performance and fun qualities notwithstanding. Guess which is still in the garage? Hint: see profile. (Yes, I know the 911 has back seats--sort of--I could fit my Jack Russell in the back but a person, nope, so I'm calling it a 2 seater.)

As an enthusiast it pains me to say that the target segment for those who can appreciate and "use" a 2 seater is hollowing out in much the same way as the middle class and for many of the same reasons. Add in that most of those who really like to drive are aging and/or in a very narrow income band, and the market just isn't there for sales of many two seaters. Frankly, I wouldn't have one if I didn't have cavernous American coupe and a mid-sized truck as I need all of those capabilities. If I had to consolidate from 3 to 1, or didn't have a choice to begin with (space, kids, $$$) I'd go with a 3 or 5 series, or probably a Macan/Cayenne or X5 variant. Most folks just have to consolidate and don't want to navigate "what if the wife can't pick up the 3 kids and I'm in my Z4M?"

The times they are a changin', and have been for some time.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by supra93

everyone said no way BMW will ever built a sports car with Toyota. Its never going to happen.

Or building fwd cars....
I dont know if anyone has been over to europe lately, but they are all over the place here. Selling like hot cakes. (where I live it sells just as good as the 3 series, bmw's bread&butter...)

[jts1981]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

No. BMW's motto is "Ultimate Driving Machine."

http://www.bmwstyle.tv/the-ultimate-driving-campaign/

Ultimate driving machine is rarely used. And if so only for M vehicles. Before BMW used tgis phrase for their whole product line. Not any more. If you can find and Ad in the us market for a non M model, please post it.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by supra93

As I said before, who really knows. I never said for a fact that they will do xyz.

Sure. At the same time it's only fair to expect a gut check from time to time. People just want to be sure that everyone is thinking first rather than just parroting rumors.

Not too long ago everyone said no way BMW will ever built a sports car with Toyota. Its never going to happen. BMW will never sink that low.

It's a shame you were not here when it was first discussed years ago because the informed among our readership - including resident insiders - were not taking that tone at all. It's a move that makes financial sense.

My point is that none of us really know whats going to happen. Again, not saying if they will or not do xzy. Just bring up past rumors and chatting with other people.

[supra93]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Sure. At the same time it's only fair to expect a gut check from time to time. People just want to be sure that you that everyone is thinking first rather than just parroting rumors.

It's a shame you were not here when it was first discussed years ago because the informed among our readership - including resident insiders - were not taking that tone at all. It's a move that makes financial sense.

But wasn't it one of your insiders that hinted at a smaller light weight 6er? And in all fairest to him I know plans do change. A good friend of mines use to work for Hyundai as an engineer. He told what is on the table this year might not be so in 2-3 years down the road due to the market, CEOs, chief engineers, board members and etc. A good example that comes to mind is when Takeo Fukui became CEO and killed off the V10 NSX and full size V8 Acura sedan that was already in late stage development.

Oh my bad, this forum doesn't seem to have that much hatred towards Toyota. I was thinking about the other BMW forum.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by supra93

But wasn't it one of your insiders that hinted at a smaller light weight 6er?

No idea, but it could very well be. However, even if that is what's coming, that's still not going to make it able to perform like a 911.

That said, if a new 6 Series coupe/convertible are indeed on the way, I would nevertheless expect them to be "smaller and lighter". However, it would be relative to the now-confirmed 8 Series coupe and convertible which were presumably conceived originally as the next 6 Series but subsequently repositioned. Hence, the door opens for the "smaller and lighter" 6 Series. See? Then, to save face and keep competitors guessing, this is spun by those tasked with building hype or misdirection. Finally, predictably, the press picks that up, adds their own hype on top, and we land where are with today's rumors. That's how the game is played.

[supra93]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

No idea, but it could very well be. However, even if that is what's coming, that's still not going to make it able to perform like a 911.

That said, if a new 6 Series coupe/convertible are indeed on the way, I would nevertheless expect them to be "smaller and lighter". However, it would be relative to the now-confirmed 8 Series coupe and convertible which were presumably conceived originally as the next 6 Series but subsequently repositioned. Hence, the door opens for the "smaller and lighter" 6 Series. See? Then, to save face and keep competitors guessing, this is spun by those tasked with building hype or misdirection. Finally, predictably, the press picks that up, adds their own hype on top, and we land where are with today's rumors. That's how the game is played.

I'm pretty sure the words 911 competitor were used. But we are now told plans for a new 6er is currently on ice, so I guess it don't really matter either way.

Yup, I know how auto media thinks. I use to write a few articles back in the days.

[Erpicum]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The market for Roadsters is in its death throes. Originally there were plans on paper to increase the Roadster family at the time but until market reaction on G29 there is no official commitment on expanding the series.
Development and material sharing with Toyota allows greater economies of scale.

The current 6er moves to the 8er in Coupe,Cabrio and Gran Coupe as before and will be offered with M.Performance and Full BMW M and BMW M CS.
The plans to do with the 6er replacement are on ice at the moment as BMW seeks to offer an expanded and renewed portfolio within the next two years.

I'm glad to hear that the the G29 is finally coming! Can't wait to see the first pictures of it!
It's a shame that the market for roadsters is practically death, they are the most beautiful cars in the world. It's a safe chose from BMW to not make any other z-series models, I understand that chose. Times are changing fast and it's important to make no mistakes.
I just hope the Z4/Z5 will be not just awesome bit freaking amazing, that it will be more a f-type fighter than a slc concurrent.

What really surprises me is the fact that the 6er replacement is currently on ice. (I'm talking about the new 6er not the 8er). A new e9/e24 with more sportive feelings than the current one but more luxurious an beautifully shaped than the 4er would be an instant hit. SCOTT26 what's the train of thought behind this decision?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by supra93

I'm pretty sure the words 911 competitor were used. But we are now told plans for a new 6er is currently on ice, so I guess it don't really matter either way.

But then that too is just rumor at this point.

[supra93]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

But then that too is just rumor at this point.

But thats what the forum's insider is saying

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by supra93

But thats what the forum's insider is saying

If you look back at the discussion, the challenge was whether you are filtering the rumors you come across or just regurgitating. Your train of thought shows that you are largely just doing the latter. But as you learn more and more from the discussions on this website, that is bound to change. In the meantime we are glad to have you around and participating in the spirited debates.