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      02-17-2018, 01:50 PM   #1
PandaM3
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Might cancel my Model 3 reservation, need an alternate daily driver

My Spark EV lease is going to be finished in 2 months and was going to get a Tesla Model 3 as a daily driver. (My other two cars is my M3 and an FJ Cruiser which are my weekend toys + my wife’s VW CC as her daily commuter)

As cool as the Model 3 is, there are a number of things that I don’t like
- there is no lease option, and I bet if there is the rates are probably going to be real bad... I don’t want to be stuck with the Model 3 when new tech starts coming out... officially not having a lease option is what got me thinking about cancelling
- Althought the interior design is clean and minimalistic... the materials feel like something you’d find in a much cheaper car. If I am paying $55k for a car I want it to feel as nice as a similar priced BMW/ Audi/ BMW
- The model 3 seem to have a bunch of quality issues... I feel like the production line is like that old 80’s comedy “Gung Ho”. If I am stuck with the car cause no lease option... then I want it to last at least 10 years with no issues.
- They’ve delayed it a 3rd time now... I had my deposit in on the first day that deposits opened in the morning here in Socal... no it might come after my lease is up

That being said I even thought maybe to hell with the environment and cost of gas... why don’t I just get a 3rd toy like a Porsche 718 GTS. Then split the commute between 3 cars so that each car gets 4,000 commuting miles each year. Then the next day I sat in traffic crawling along at 5mph in my M3 and decided that is just a terrible terrible idea.

Here is my criteria
- I need at least 25 miles electric each way (I can charge at home and at work) so it can be full EV or PHEV
- I need semi autonomous driving
- I want it to feel nice inside... I work hard m-f I want to drive a car that makes me feel like my hard work is worth it
- reasonably priced, but the cheaper it is means I have more room in my budget for other toys in a few years.

The one car at the top of my list right now is the Honda Clarity PHEV.
- before anyone says anything negative about it... I know it is ugly as hell, it’s not fast... but hey it’s a tool, an appliance that I plug in to get to and from work
- It’s pretty cheap... after EV rebates it is as cheap as a fully loaded civic (excluding the type R civic)
- It’s so cheap it is probably better to buy and finance it rather than lease it
- interior is nicer than the Model 3 as far as materials go... materials looks as good as any $40k car out there where as the Model 3 is as good as a $20k car as far as the tactile feel of the materials
- 47 mile EV range is more than enough for my commute and the gas engine gives me enough range for longer trips after that
- smart semi autonomous driving like adaptive cruise + low speed follow + lane keep assist will make commuting much more relaxing
- HOV access

What other options are out there with similar capabilities? Just want to be sure I am not missing anything.
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      02-17-2018, 02:21 PM   #2
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Not sure what your underlying premise is. You refer to both the cost of gas and the environment. If it's the environment, buying an EV is likely more damaging on a build to disposal scale than a similar gas powered vehicle. Since you don't say where you live, we have no idea to what extent your electrical utility is fossil fuel fired which is a significant factor in determining the overall efficacy of purported environmental benefits to EVs.

My advice below is predicated on assuming you live in a region served by an electrical utility that uses fossil fuels to generate electricity for either primary or secondary demand, and if it's coal ... it's even worse for the environment than any IC drivetrain would ever be. If, however, you live in an area served by hydro or nuclear, that changes the environmental equation significantly (habitat damage and other risks not factored in).

However, the cost of gas is a valid criteria given the length of your commute Since you're on the waiting list anyway, I might suggest waiting for the 2019 Mazda 3 and HCCI which will provide substantial gas savings and maybe better from an overall cost/leasing perspective. I would also look at conventional hybrids like the Accord Hybrid or the Hyundai Ioniq BEV before looking at a PHEV because of my views on PHEVs or EVs in general.

As for the semi-autonomous, I can't offer any comment. If it's that important, it will limit your choices and (as much as I detest Tesla as a company) lead you back to the Model 3.
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      02-17-2018, 02:32 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Not sure what your underlying premise is. You refer to both the cost of gas and the environment. If it's the environment, buying an EV is likely more damaging on a build to disposal scale than a similar gas powered vehicle. Since you don't say where you live, we have no idea to what extent your electrical utility is fossil fuel fired which is a significant factor in determining the overall efficacy of purported environmental benefits to EVs.

My advice below is predicated on assuming you live in a region served by an electrical utility that uses fossil fuels to generate electricity for either primary or secondary demand, and if it's coal ... it's even worse for the environment than any IC drivetrain would ever be. If, however, you live in an area served by hydro or nuclear, that changes the environmental equation significantly (habitat damage and other risks not factored in).

However, the cost of gas is a valid criteria given the length of your commute Since you're on the waiting list anyway, I might suggest waiting for the 2019 Mazda 3 and HCCI which will provide substantial gas savings and maybe better from an overall cost/leasing perspective. I would also look at conventional hybrids like the Accord Hybrid or the Hyundai Ioniq BEV before looking at a PHEV because of my views on PHEVs or EVs in general.

As for the semi-autonomous, I can't offer any comment. If it's that important, it will limit your choices and (as much as I detest Tesla as a company) lead you back to the Model 3.
I live in Socal so the majority of our electricity comes from natural gas, then hydro, then solar, then a bunch of other things.

As far as polution from making the battery, at least the PHEV Clarity uses only a 17kwh battery which is smaller than the Model 3...

More importantly I want something that gives me HOV access and some semiautonomous features (at the very least some kind of traffic assist)
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      02-17-2018, 02:40 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PandaM3 View Post
I live in Socal so the majority of our electricity comes from natural gas, then hydro, then solar, then a bunch of other things.

As far as polution from making the battery, at least the PHEV Clarity uses only a 17kwh battery which is smaller than the Model 3...

More importantly I want something that gives me HOV access and some semiautonomous features (at the very least some kind of traffic assist)
As above, electrical source is an important factor and is almost always ignored (which you don't seem to be ignoring). You didn't mention the HOV issue and I get why that's an issue. If BEV's don't qualify, then the convenience factor certainly makes PHEV's worth looking at. I would go back to my Ioniq suggestion above but look at the PHEV version instead of the BEV one.
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      02-17-2018, 03:27 PM   #5
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Saw the Clarity for the first time last Wednesday, didn't sit in though from peering through the window the interior looks like a nice place to spend time after a day of hard work. As for the exterior, I didn't think it was ugly - very aero and crash worthy type of design.
At $37,000 the Clarity is probably the only Honda I would buy in that price range.
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      02-17-2018, 03:45 PM   #6
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I wouldn't recommend cancelling your Model 3 pre-order if you're up there on the production list. Sell your place in queue on Craigslist or on the Tesla forums instead.

It's also important to note that both Chevy and Tesla are expected to surpass their respective $7500 federal tax EV credit allocation sometime by Q2, so buying one this year won't be as good of a deal since you won't be able to take advantage of that incentive.

I live in the Bay Area, and my work is based in Mountain View, CA (home of Google), so I've seen enough Model 3s, and have ridden in plenty of Model S to be able to form my own opinion about them. I've also had two PHEVs (Volt, C-max Energi), so I understand how it all works. In my opinion, Teslas aren't worth its price tag -- they're nice low-maintenance cars, and the technology behind them is innovative, but that's about where it all ends for me. The Model S aren't even anything special anymore, at least not in my neck of the woods. They're about as common as Camrys and Accords in SF, and I'm sure LA isn't any different.
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      02-17-2018, 04:42 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
As above, electrical source is an important factor and is almost always ignored (which you don't seem to be ignoring). You didn't mention the HOV issue and I get why that's an issue. If BEV's don't qualify, then the convenience factor certainly makes PHEV's worth looking at. I would go back to my Ioniq suggestion above but look at the PHEV version instead of the BEV one.
Don’t forget the little maintenance an EV car needs. In the 3 years I’ve had my Spark EV I’ve only had to replace the front tires once. And that was a few months ago since I didn’t want to buy new tires turning the car in for someone else to use.

As far as HOV access goes, it is nice to be able to use the HOV. However at best it maybe saves me 10 minutes and frequently it gets just as bad as the regular lanes. For this reason some kind of autonomous drive features are important to me when sitting in traffic.

Funny you mention the Ioniq PHEV. A good friend of mine is a Hyundai engineer and he’s been coming by with different cars including the Ioniq trying to convince me. I keep telling him to come back when they have a PHEV Genesis G90 with at least 30 miles of EV range. Cause the G90 is a plush place to be in while sitting in traffic. Also it has some traffic assist features that is standard across many other Genesis and Hyundai’s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottSinger View Post
Saw the Clarity for the first time last Wednesday, didn't sit in though from peering through the window the interior looks like a nice place to spend time after a day of hard work. As for the exterior, I didn't think it was ugly - very aero and crash worthy type of design.
At $37,000 the Clarity is probably the only Honda I would buy in that price range.
I just wanted to say ugly before anyone trolls the thread by saying it’s ugly. However I agree it is a pretty techy exterior design that is more function than form. I’ve sat in both the Clarity and Model 3 and the Clarity is a nice place to be in while sitting in traffic.
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      02-17-2018, 06:35 PM   #8
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At least Drive an i3

Suggest you drive an i3. It sounds perfect for what you want. I am on my second one. You can pu a 2014 BEV for less than 20 grand. Hi tech. Drives like a BMW.

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      02-17-2018, 07:09 PM   #9
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pocket the money and just daily the m3?
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      02-17-2018, 08:26 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turboawd View Post
pocket the money and just daily the m3?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bailyhill View Post
Suggest you drive an i3. It sounds perfect for what you want. I am on my second one. You can pu a 2014 BEV for less than 20 grand. Hi tech. Drives like a BMW.

Bailyhill
Does the 2014 have any driver assist tech that makes traffic easier?

Don't really need to to drive like a bmw since it's mainly going to be a m-f commuter car that sits in traffic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turboawd View Post
pocket the money and just daily the m3?
I thought of that... but I'd actually be loosing money commuting/ sitting in traffic with the M3 considering cost of gas, maintenance (and that's just tires, brakes, oil), wear and tear, depreciation. That's why for the past three years I've been commuting with a Chevy Spark EV. At the lease rate of the Spark I was actually saving hundreds each month.

Financing something like a Clarity PHEV id be braking even each month... once it's paid off I'll be positive as far as savings vs commuting in the M3. Financing a Tesla however puts me over the break even point looking at things monthly.
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      02-17-2018, 08:46 PM   #11
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Hmmmm BMW i3 ?
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      02-17-2018, 10:09 PM   #12
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Get a Fiat 500 Abarth from CarMax for $10k.
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      02-18-2018, 10:41 AM   #13
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I think you're on the wrong forum bud. We are BMW enthusiasts, we enjoy the rumble of a powerful engine and don't give a shyt about gas mileage. To add to that, we enjoy the feel of the road through our fingertips and don't like the car doing the driving for us.

You set yourself up by buying into Elon's hype. I used to work regularly with Tesla clients and have a lot of experience with their cars. Yes the tech and powertrain are very impressive, but otherwise the vehicles are sub-par. To make matters worse, their fanboys are some of the most malignant people I've encountered in my life. They are on such a moral high horse it's insane. Bunch of nerds into gadgets rather than real car guys...
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      02-18-2018, 11:13 AM   #14
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      02-18-2018, 01:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Never_Enough View Post
Just daily the FJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkracing View Post
Get a Fiat 500 Abarth from CarMax for $10k.
If I was going to get another "ice" car as a daily I would get a used S2000.

But I don't want another "ice" car to maintain.

Having the electric car means I can put more of my miles on the EV and not have to maintain my other cars as frequently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by uniqueMR View Post
Hmmmm BMW i3 ?
That's still a possibility... wonder what the cost is with bmw's driver assistance packages. I3 would make sense if they have a compelling lease deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I think you're on the wrong forum bud. We are BMW enthusiasts, we enjoy the rumble of a powerful engine and don't give a shyt about gas mileage. To add to that, we enjoy the feel of the road through our fingertips and don't like the car doing the driving for us.

You set yourself up by buying into Elon's hype. I used to work regularly with Tesla clients and have a lot of experience with their cars. Yes the tech and powertrain are very impressive, but otherwise the vehicles are sub-par. To make matters worse, their fanboys are some of the most malignant people I've encountered in my life. They are on such a moral high horse it's insane. Bunch of nerds into gadgets rather than real car guys...
This is the general automotive section right?

Don't worry I'm still keeping my V8 M3. And that's where the problem is... I want to keep my V8 M3 until the day I die. I'm not the kind of person to buy a car that I'm into only to sell it for the next model.

Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoy my V8 M3 out on the open road on the weekends. Since I got my Spark EV for commuting I've enjoyed road trips out to the pacific north west in the M3, drives out to PCH, and track days. So I'm not about to drive my M3 into the ground with commuter miles while sitting in traffic. I don't know what kind of joy a person has while sitting in traffic with there M3 just idling, what do you feel through your finger tips while sitting still? On top of that the worry of people around you that can hit you? I've gotten rear ended commuting in the Spark EV and there was nothing better than knowing I can just pop that bumper back into place and not care about the scratches on it. Could you imagine that scenario playing out in the M3?

The best analogy is this...
In the past horse and carriage used to be the main form of transportation... then cars came to be and horses became a fun hobby for recreation. Now EV's are here as my weekday appliance and my "ice" cars are the weekend fun recreation cars.
Quote:
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Just daily the FJ
Not a bad idea
-300,000 mile service life like a land cruiser
- I've got ARB bumpers for armor in traffic
- maintenance is cheap and easy
- even with high mileage it hardly depreciates

But I'm still loosing a lot in gas
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      02-18-2018, 01:41 PM   #16
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Hmmm 530e looks interesting... has everyone I'd want... just wish for more EV range
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      02-18-2018, 11:14 PM   #17
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You are in southern California correct? Get a motorcycle for commuting to work so you can lane split through the congestion.
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      02-18-2018, 11:50 PM   #18
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Maybe try the Volt as the interior might be nicer than a Spark/model 3? + adaptive cruise. I drive a Bolt btw and the interior is fine.
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      02-18-2018, 11:55 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toughluck View Post
Maybe try the Volt as the interior might be nicer than a Spark/model 3? + adaptive cruise. I drive a Bolt btw and the interior is fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkie6 View Post
You are in southern California correct? Get a motorcycle for commuting to work so you can lane split through the congestion.
I see one motorcycle accident a week and they all happen in the carpool lane.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toughluck View Post
Maybe try the Volt as the interior might be nicer than a Spark/model 3? + adaptive cruise. I drive a Bolt btw and the interior is fine.
Does the Volt/ Bolt have low speed follow and active lane keep assist? Those two features allow the Clarity to be hands free and feet free while in traffic.
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      02-19-2018, 05:18 AM   #20
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Panda, your really fast at picking apart everyone suggestions. Last suggestion from me - have you considered a used model S with autopilot then?
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      02-19-2018, 10:44 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toughluck View Post
Panda, your really fast at picking apart everyone suggestions. Last suggestion from me - have you considered a used model S with autopilot then?
Sorry if I came off that way

Just wanted to see if there are any alternatives I haven’t thought about... as you can see I’ve thought about these mentioned alternatives a lot before posting.

So as a reminder
- EV or PHEV so I don’t spend on gas m-f
- enough electric or combined electric and gas range to make it to Vegas (not that I go to Vegas often, but it’s good to know as an option)
- Semi autonomous driving assist to make sitting in traffic better
- Let’s set a ceiling for the price at $47,500 after incentives (however one of my car goals is to have a 911 in the garage parked next to my M3... so the closer to $47,500 that car is the further away I am from that goal)
- Almost forgot.... needs to be a nice place to sit in while in traffic

Everything everyone has mentioned are great choices.

So far the two cars that fit that above criteria are the Model 3 and Clarity PHEV.
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      02-19-2018, 10:45 AM   #22
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I'm not sure if its a phev but the new insight looks pretty good

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