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      10-02-2010, 11:13 AM   #67
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Has anyone else seen this: http://www.petitiononline.com/fixpump/petition.html
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      10-02-2010, 11:50 AM   #68
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Here is where we need to report vehicle safety defect issue that could lead to a recall.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/
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      10-02-2010, 06:46 PM   #69
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Thanks Silver Bolt:

I have filed my complaint at this link and the rest of us that have had a HPFP failure should do the same. Maybe the message will be received. I am no good at links but this is the online filing link . . .

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/Complaint.cfm
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      10-08-2010, 11:47 AM   #70
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Well - I was screwed this week on our "warranted" HPFP when they saw our FMIC. The service ticket actually says, "HPFP replaced per PUMA, but not warranted because of FMIC." Even though the dealer mechanic, dealer service rep, and dealer service manager admit that the HPFP has nothing to do with the FMIC install or operation as approximately "70% of N54 motors at their dealership have HPFP failure."

This ran me $1,000 total for a $354 HPFP and a lawsuit will follow this week. I can honestly say with extreme regret that I will never purchase another BMW because of the PUMA system and horrible long-term customer attitude being run by BMWNA. Jeeze, I love BMWs but the higher ups in corporate have ruined the experience.

I had a long talk with the service manager on this issue and he told me flat out "this is the direction BMWNA has been moving for the past 2 years or so with the slumping economy despite recovering BMW sales." He said "BMWNA is warranting far fewer claims at every turn in an effort to save money and any excuse possible will and is being used." "PUMA is now controlling many if not most of the warranty claims (PUMA has independent authority from BMWNA) and it is kicking back or delaying many of the repairs needed." The conversation went on but I think you get the picture.

That is a long way of saying that sometimes lawyers and lawsuits are needed - especially when BMWNA screws it customers on purpose and does not live up to its obligations.

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      10-08-2010, 04:14 PM   #71
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I believe at one time that passionate, car minded enthusiast engineers built and ran BMW. Now, along with all the other corporations throughout the world, accountants have taken over.

Example: A few years back McDonalds had to address slumping sales. One issue that surfaced was the corporate bean counters had issued instructions to cut quantities of the more flavorful ingredients in McDonalds hamburger sauce. It came back to bite them in the a**, but by that time the top executives got their cut of the profits and moved on to another corporate killing field.
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      10-08-2010, 04:24 PM   #72
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Vin,
I am greatful that you are not rolling over on this. With a likely victory in your case you will be setting a presidence for the rest of us.

The only thing I can see defense wise is they will claim your extra boost levels created a higher demand on the pump. That is very unlikely even at WOT. On top of that they will have to data log your car stock and then again with mods to prove an increase in fuel demand.

Best of luck!
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      10-08-2010, 04:29 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Bolt View Post
Vin,
I am greatful that you are not rolling over on this. With a likely victory in your case you will be setting a presidence for the rest of us.

The only thing I can see defense wise is they will claim your extra boost levels created a higher demand on the pump. That is very unlikely even at WOT. On top of that they will have to data log your car stock and then again with mods to prove an increase in fuel demand.

Best of luck!
agreed - but with a HPFP failure rate of an admitted 70% by two dealers I have talked to in the past week, the real question will be "was it more likely than not your Z4 received a defective HPFP at the factory or that the FMIC killed the HPFP?" I think we all know the answer to that question. Does the iS have a better HPFP??? If not, this is a mystery with its added hp and torque.

Just got off the phone after a 35 minute call with BMWNA. Customer relations said, and I quote "we cannot change PUMA's decision as we do not have the authority." I asked, "is there anyone at BMW I can talk to with the authority to fix this ridiculous position by PUMA?" The response: "NO." I then asked, can I do anything or contact anyone instead of having to file a lawsuit against the BMW Dealer, and they actually said "NO" again. So, I guess I have no choice but to file suit, amazing . . . I WILL NEVER BUY ANOTHER BMW FOR ANY REASON.
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      10-08-2010, 04:51 PM   #74
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Well I certainly feel for you. I'm glad you are going to fight this. At least you can be your own lawyer and don't have to throw away thousands on attorney fees. On the surface it sounds like they have backed away from the claim that this is voiding your entire warranty? I understand if they are wanting to fight the case that the FMIC is responsible for the HPFP failure and therefore no warranty for the HPFP repair. Voiding the ENTIRE cars warranty however is quite something else. If they were to get a way with that in court it would set a very dangerous precedence! All of a sudden you'd have your warranty voided because you used non OEM approved windshield wipers. I understand all about the bean counters wanting to save the company money and so on, but making preposterous claims like that needs to be met with lawsuits!
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      10-08-2010, 05:18 PM   #75
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Silver-Bolt, I considered that as well. I know that older fuel pump designs pumped a constant amount of fuel regardless of engine output. For BMW to make the case you're suggesting they would have to prove the pump varies pressure based on demand, however, I don’t think that’s case. If the pump is a constant pressure then they don’t have a leg to stand on concerning the FMIC. We’d need to talk with a BMW mechanic to verify.
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      10-08-2010, 05:44 PM   #76
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I remember somewhere on this forum reading that the failure rate of these HPFPs is actually very low in Europe. I wonder if there is anything going on with the fuel we get in NA. In any case, BMW has got to make this right. They have a lot more to lose than to gain by listening to bean counters. For starts, being on my 4th BMW in 10 years, I will probably stir away from them for my next car. I certainly did not pay a premium price to a company that is going to behave like Toyota.
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      10-08-2010, 06:46 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafale View Post
I remember somewhere on this forum reading that the failure rate of these HPFPs is actually very low in Europe. I wonder if there is anything going on with the fuel we get in NA. In any case, BMW has got to make this right. They have a lot more to lose than to gain by listening to bean counters. For starts, being on my 4th BMW in 10 years, I will probably stir away from them for my next car. I certainly did not pay a premium price to a company that is going to behave like Toyota.
That's an old horse beaten many times to death. There's all kinds of rumors out there but the fuel linkage is a no go.
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      10-08-2010, 06:51 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teagueAMX View Post
That's an old horse beaten many times to death. There's all kinds of rumors out there but the fuel linkage is a no go.
How do you know? It seems to be the only logical explanation if the failure rate in Europe is really lower that is. What else could be so different that it would make the US pumps fail so frequently?
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      10-08-2010, 10:13 PM   #79
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I too have thought of the implications of my situation. We have a 3m clear bra, ceramic based window tint, non RFTs, shorty antenna, and the list goes on of non BMW mods - would that too void some type of warranty on the car if they felt like it; I guess the answer is yes. I am very puzzled by this and assume that PUMA/BMW did not think there was a chance I was a lawyer . . . I am really just very sad because from my avatar, I think you can all tell I am a BMW loyalist to the core (it is an engine shot of my, you guessed it, highly modified 1977 R100S) but this has shaken me.
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      10-08-2010, 10:57 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafale View Post
How do you know? It seems to be the only logical explanation if the failure rate in Europe is really lower that is. What else could be so different that it would make the US pumps fail so frequently?
First - part of the rumor is that fewer HPFP fail in Europe but if you do a poll on any given day, and there have been a couple informal ones, member of the forum are aware of HPFP failures in Europe, too.

Second - except for racing fuel, fuel quality differences are a myth. Individual brands' fuel is produced the same and even stored in the same containers but the individual brands' additives are put into the fuel just before delivery. US has ethanol, but if that was the problem then it would be affecting other fuel pumps as well - see points Three and Four.

Third - A low pressure fuel pump, high pressure fuel pump, mechanical fuel pump, electric fuel pump, etc. are all made with the same metal, the same seal materials, etc. If the fuel is the problem then why isn't it destroying all the fuel pumps? Additionally, the Volkswagen's big 10 marques (including Porsche), and BMW and few others Euro manufactures get their pumps from the same companies. Why aren't they all failing here in the US?

Fourth - Although a number of manufactures are having issues with HPFP in lower numbers, why aren't BMWs other HPFPs having the same issues in the same numbers. Example - BMW makes a nice tt v8 first installed in the X6 50i with a HPFP - go over there and monitor their threads to find out if their HPFP are failing at the same rate. I can tell you they've had some failures but not a high rate.

Fifth - the new n55 has a HPFP. Are they failing at the same rate? Time will tell. It appears IMHO the n54 HPFP has a design defect that apparently cannot be easily corrected.

Update:

Note the latest info from Alext:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alext View Post
Note that the new N55 twinscroll engines (designed to replace the N54) also use the same HPFP with the same part#. Some have failed already too.
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      10-08-2010, 11:41 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teagueAMX View Post
OK - here we go.

First - part of the rumor is that fewer HPFP fail in Europe but if you do a poll on any given day, and there have been a couple informal ones, member of the forum are aware of HPFP failures in Europe, too.

Second - except for racing fuel, fuel quality differences are a myth. Individual brands' fuel is produced the same and even stored in the same containers but the individual brands' additives are put into the fuel just before delivery. US has ethinol, but if that was the problem then it would be affecting other fuel pumps as well - see points Three and Four.

Third - A low pressure fuel pump, high pressure fuel pump, mechanical fuel pump, electric fuel pumps, etc. are all made with the same metal, the same seal materials, etc. If the fuel is the problem then why isn't it destroying all the fuel pumps? Additionally, the Volkswagen's big marques (including Porsche), and BMW and few others Euro manufactures get their pumps from the same companies. Why aren't they all failing here in the US?

Fourth - Although a number of manufactures are having issues with HPFP in lower numbers, why aren't BMWs other HPFPs having the same issues in the same numbers. Example - BMW makes a nice tt v8 first installed in the X6 50i with a HPFP - go over there and monitor their threads to find out if their HPFP are failing at the same rate. I can tell you they've had some failures but not a high rate.

Fifth - the new n55 has a HPFP. Are they failing at the same rate? Time will tell. It appears IMHO the n54 HPFP has a design defect that apparently cannot be easily corrected.
First, it is indeed an assumption I made based on feedback on this very forum that in europe much fewer failures are being reported. Come to think about it, it is also very possible that there are fewer 35i in Europe given that buyers are more cost sensitive there but I assumed it to be true.

Second... I used to work in oil as a process engineer and have actually worked in a refinery! Not all gas is being created equal and although aftermarket additives different companies add to the gasoline is a major factor, it is not everything. Even the same brand of gas will have different level of minerals (inorganic) and other components are not being filtered the same way through the hydrodesulfuration and distillation process. There will be batch to batch variations depending on the origin of the oil. How much it will affect the pump, I do not know. One would argue that in reality a lot of the refinery in europe are actually shipping their gasoline to ... the US because europe has gone mostly diesel. I know this for fact from former colleagues. It is however perfectly reasonable to think that given the price of gas in Europe, companies there are more inclined to put different (read useful) additives than in the US. The same is true for Engine oil. There is a reason why BMW imports their synthetic oil from Europe and that you cannot buy the exact same oil in the US. This is a fact, not a rumor.

Your reasoning on the HPFP design flaw makes sense except... If they outsourced the pump and it would be an off the shelf part from an OEM, other cars would use the same pump and would also have increased failure rates. This leads to think that the pump on the N54 might be specific and would have a design flaw making it incompatible or more sensitive to the gas over here. Being it flow, pressure, material degradation or whatever it is I don't know.
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      10-09-2010, 12:04 AM   #82
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VintageBMW, you will win. Bmw simply hopes that most people won't go to the point of actually suing them. In most cases, they hope there is no record regarding the failed part they refuse to warranty. You your case, there is a mile long record of failures. They will settle with you. I guess the hardest part for you is deciding on what you are willing to settle for.
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      10-09-2010, 12:08 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafale View Post
First, it is indeed an assumption I made based on feedback on this very forum that in europe much fewer failures are being reported. Come to think about it, it is also very possible that there are fewer 35i in Europe given that buyers are more cost sensitive there but I assumed it to be true.

Second... I used to work in oil as a process engineer and have actually worked in a refinery! Not all gas is being created equal and although aftermarket additives different companies add to the gasoline is a major factor, it is not everything. Even the same brand of gas will have different level of minerals (inorganic) and other components are not being filtered the same way through the hydrodesulfuration and distillation process. There will be batch to batch variations depending on the origin of the oil. How much it will affect the pump, I do not know. One would argue that in reality a lot of the refinery in europe are actually shipping their gasoline to ... the US because europe has gone mostly diesel. I know this for fact from former colleagues. It is however perfectly reasonable to think that given the price of gas in Europe, companies there are more inclined to put different (read useful) additives than in the US. The same is true for Engine oil. There is a reason why BMW imports their synthetic oil from Europe and that you cannot buy the exact same oil in the US. This is a fact, not a rumor.

Your reasoning on the HPFP design flaw makes sense except... If they outsourced the pump and it would be an off the shelf part from an OEM, other cars would use the same pump and would also have increased failure rates. This leads to think that the pump on the N54 might be specific and would have a design flaw making it incompatible or more sensitive to the gas over here. Being it flow, pressure, material degradation or whatever it is I don't know.
I appreciate your first hand knowledge of fuel production industry that certainly trumps my own. My info is based on research though the years and a few documentary films. However, what I did find interesting here in the US is the method of storage and transport. Fuel in the US (and I can only assume the same is true Europe) is transported primarily through the same underground pipes to huge fuel depots. They showed fuel being extracted from the same reservoirs for Shell, Chevron, etc. and their additives were mixed just before being transported by truck to the individual gas stations.

BMW, like virtually all manufactures today, uses outsource manufactured products built to their specifications. This is true of fuel pumps as well. I’d have to dig around to find the thread, which assumes I could remember the forum I read it (likely e90post) but there has been some discussion about BMW working with the manufacture of the n54 HPFP to get it right.

Note the latest info from Alext:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alext View Post
Note that the new N55 twinscroll engines (designed to replace the N54) also use the same HPFP with the same part#. Some have failed already too.
Posted here:
http://e89.zpost.com/forums/showthre...88#post8131988


Cheers
.
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      10-09-2010, 01:58 AM   #84
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The oil is transported through oleo-ducts from ports to refineries where they get refined: through distillation ethane, ethylene, propane, propylene. kerozene... etc all get separated feeding steamcrackers for plastic production amongst other things... It is possible that some joint ventures exist (I know of one in Port Arthur Tx where Total (yes French Oil company) has a JV with Exxon. All the gas does not come from a common refinery or a single tank. This is a big misunderstanding. Companies can share investment to share a supply. Gasoline is also not transported through pipes over long distance. Only oil (and natural gas) is. The additives are proprietary to each company and are not usually shared. Gasoline is transported by truck for the most part... We would not need to have all these refineries strategically located all over the country...
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      10-09-2010, 07:25 AM   #85
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Teague,
I need to do more research on the N54 DI fuel system to fully understand how it operates. Typically in boosted application the fuel pressure is constant but the flow varies.

Here is a question I cannot find any information on. What fails in the HPFP? Seals, impeller, etc? Anyone had a bad pump apart to see what is actually failing? Ethonal is extremely hard on fuel systems and especially "rubber" components. I racing applications it takes a completely different fuel system to run alcohol including the fuel pump. Could the U.S. mandated ethonal be contributing to the HPFP failures?

Vintage,
If you happened to get the failed pump from your car you may be able to make your case by having it tested to diagnose what within the pump let go.
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      10-09-2010, 08:02 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Bolt View Post
Vintage,
If you happened to get the failed pump from your car you may be able to make your case by having it tested to diagnose what within the pump let go.
Thanks - I have already written the dealer and requested the part - we shall see.
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      10-09-2010, 09:53 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafale View Post
The oil is transported through oleo-ducts from ports to refineries where they get refined: through distillation ethane, ethylene, propane, propylene. kerozene... etc all get separated feeding steamcrackers for plastic production amongst other things... It is possible that some joint ventures exist (I know of one in Port Arthur Tx where Total (yes French Oil company) has a JV with Exxon. All the gas does not come from a common refinery or a single tank. This is a big misunderstanding. Companies can share investment to share a supply. Gasoline is also not transported through pipes over long distance. Only oil (and natural gas) is. The additives are proprietary to each company and are not usually shared. Gasoline is transported by truck for the most part... We would not need to have all these refineries strategically located all over the country...
With all due respect to your experience in the industry, I think you really need to double check some info.

For the sake of argument, even though information I’ve come across over the years leads me to believe otherwise, I’m willing to concede that brands (i.e., Shell. Exxon, etc.) may not share facilities. But think about it: how much fuel is transported nationwide? It's literally impossible, not to mention dangerous, to transport over rail cars or on public highways 20 billion barrels of unrefined crude oil and then move 10 billion barrels of refined gasoline from one end of the country to the other over rail car or public roadways. The trucks we see on the road are transporting fuel from huge regional depots to end user service stations. The US has over 146,000 miles of underground pipelines to transport fuel oil. Of that total approximately 50,000 is for crude oil and the balance of about 84,000 is for “product”. A little more research could reveal exactly what that term means, and if you want the links and charts let me know but I assume it would bore people to tears.

But getting back to my point 3 and 4, if in fact our motor fuels and/or fuel additives are causing the problem, why isn’t the problem the same across the board and include all makes and models, foreign and domestically manufactured cars. We know that isn’t the case. I find it very hard to believe that chemists haven’t cracked the problem of making synthetic fuel pump seals, gaskets, etc., that can resist the affects of fuel additives including ethanol.

Cheers
.
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      10-09-2010, 03:34 PM   #88
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But getting back to my point 3 and 4, if in fact our motor fuels and/or fuel additives are causing the problem, why isn’t the problem the same across the board and include all makes and models, foreign and domestically manufactured cars. We know that isn’t the case. I find it very hard to believe that chemists haven’t cracked the problem of making synthetic fuel pump seals, gaskets, etc., that can resist the affects of fuel additives including ethanol.

Not many vehicles on the road using direct injection. It is becoming more common but not the norm. If not a seal/gasket failure perhaps the ethanol under certian stituations can cause the pump to cavitate and over heat. Alcohol is lighter than gasoline perhaps there is a perfect storm situation that contributes. The symptom of "loud in tank pump" could be cavitation? A high pressure pump running dry can burn out very fast. If it's not a manufacturing defect the only thing it could be is voltage supplied by the car or the fuel flowing through it.
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