HPFP Issue to be Aired on ABC

[teagueAMX]

Reading on another board:

That on oct. 26th, ABC will feature stories of HPFP failures in BMW n54 vehicles.

First, Good Morning America will do a short piece on it then Nightline will cover the story. This is in response to the class action lawsuit filed in California.

Working on confirming the info, but wanted to post first just in case somebody else has heard of it.

[tranquility]

I did a quick search and supposedly it'll air on the 26th?

A bit on a tangent, but since BMW knows about this hpfp prb, why did they place the N54 in so many of its models? Do they have an excess stock of it sitting in their factory or what? That's just asking for trouble, or was there no suitable alternative to the N54?

EDIT: the related lawsuit is for models 2007-2010, so does that mean 2011 are unaffected by the hpfp or just not included?

[teagueAMX]

Good questions. I was critical of the pump design before, but after looking around at some other designs that can produce 2,600 PSI, I may have been a bit hasty in my judgment. The design BMW is using may be a bit weak mechanically, but I think it's very efficient from a parasitic energy load point of view.

Anytime you place a load on an engine, like an AC compressor pump, a supercharger, etc., that's called parasitic energy load. That's because it requires horsepower to run it. Some of the other pump designs I looked at world likely be far more durable but would require more energy to operate. BMW will likely have to change the design but my guess it will decrease your gas mileage a bit. The other possibility is going to an electric design but not sure how it would meet demand load without some ECU programing magic.

As far as the ABC program is concerned, I've only been able to confirm what some of the other boards are saying, but no actual info on the interview itself except it may be with one of the attorneys in the class action law suit and they were looking for a n54 owner to sit in the interview.

Still no air time than the info above.

[Silver-Bolt]

That is likely the publicity needed to force a recall. The problem is there is no fix at this time. Another issue is that many 2011 cars have the N54 and also the N55 uses the same pump system.

[HerrK]

Originally Posted by tranquility

I did a quick search and supposedly it'll air on the 26th? - the related lawsuit is for models 2007-2010, so does that mean 2011 are unaffected by the hpfp or just not included?

The extended pump warranty and the lawsuit were probably well in the paperwork release cycle before the release of the 2011 models, hence they were likely not included by the CA or BMW. I doubt that BMW has fully resolved the MY 2011 & on HPFP issue although they may be fine tuning the latest revisions of the hardware and software to signifigantly reduce the mean time between failure (MTBF) rate. One can only hope, me certainly as a N54 owner.

Anyway a little public airing of this bit of BMW dirty laundry may help motivate them to a quicker resolution of this issue.

[T89]

Why is it that most, if not all the HPFP failures in the n54 are in NA spec cars. Never heard of such failures here in Europe. Is it because of the different grade of fuel?


T

[marcw]

Nobody really knows. This topic has been debated for quite some time. I think the consensus is that the failures are not due to fuel differences. BMW must still feel pretty good about the N54 engine as they are putting it in the yet to be released 1-series M coupe. The N54 won engine of the year again in 2010 as well.

Originally Posted by T89

Why is it that most, if not all the HPFP failures in the n54 are in NA spec cars. Never heard of such failures here in Europe. Is it because of the different grade of fuel?


T

[HerrK]

This problem is not unique to the US. If you read/translate through some of the Germany 1 Series 135 post you will see the problem is not common to the US. Although it seems to be worse here as we

1. Probably have a much higher percentage of N54 equipped vehicles. The US thirst for speed/power & cheaper gas -vs- high EU fuel prices.
2. Maybe some fuel related issues. Sulfer content in US fuels higher in US than EU.

http://www.1erforum.de/bmw-135i/star...mpe-19087.html

[teagueAMX]

Originally Posted by HerrK

The extended pump warranty and the lawsuit were probably well in the paperwork release cycle before the release of the 2011 models, hence they were likely not included by the CA or BMW. I doubt that BMW has fully resolved the MY 2011 & on HPFP issue although they may be fine tuning the latest revisions of the hardware and software to signifigantly reduce the mean time between failure (MTBF) rate. One can only hope, me certainly as a N54 owner.

Anyway a little public airing of this bit of BMW dirty laundry may help motivate them to a quicker resolution of this issue.

Herrk, I may not fully understand your statement but as far as fine tuning hardware and software production, you must be referring to MY 2012, right? We're already well into MY 2011 production.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by teagueAMX

Herrk, I may not fully understand your statement but as far as fine tuning hardware and software production, you must be referring to MY 2012, right? We're already well into MY 2011 production.

I dunno about hardware but when I was in service there would periodically be some 'software upgrade' I would get but the only info I got was that it "makes the car run smoother, electronics work better, bla bla bla". I would suspect that may be what he's talking about?

[rmorin49]

This type of publicity does not bode well for future resale value.

[HerrK]

Originally Posted by teagueAMX

Herrk, I may not fully understand your statement but as far as fine tuning hardware and software production, you must be referring to MY 2012, right? We're already well into MY 2011 production.

From various posts it seems like BMW is on the 4th PN for the HPFP. I would surmise that they tweak it as they continue to learn about its failures - may not necessarily be tied to MY but next "lot" or order batch. Just as they push out software updates/revs probably not tied to a specific MY. MY 2011 will probably be in production into 1st qtr of 2011, they place orders or upgrade software as required .

[teagueAMX]

Understood - thanks

[HerrK]

FYI - Some chronological/pn history on the HPFP and likely to be continued with some failures already reported on the N55 engine family.

1 - 13537537320 - New Original HPFP
2 - 13517585655
3 - 13517582881
4 - 13517596123
5 - 13517594943
6 - 13517613933

The latest PN iteration

7 - 135??????402

Here's a link from South Africa with some nice internal pics and PN ident 13th photo) so you can find what version/PN of the pump you have. Mine is a 933 (vehicle assembly complete on 27 April 2010 - MY 2011)

http://www.bmwfanatics.co.za/printthread.php?tid=8821

[teagueAMX]

Good post, HerrK. Lot to digest there.

Just some initial reactions (not criticism) to the photos and the South African forum member’s posts.

It's interesting that a South African forum features the discussion about these pumps they are pretty sure is a problem "in the States". But at least one guy had a failed pump and featured a lot of photos of it plus the brand new one he installed.

Looking over the parts of the disassembled pump, the seals all looked pretty good. From my research on ethanol, the biggest concern (apart from the very low BTU levels) seems to be the fact that ethanol is able to absorb a fairly high percentage of water. In terms of lubricative value within the pump, it’s probably on par with gasoline anyway. The other concern (or may have been a concern) is that ethanol is a type of alcohol and possibly more corrosive than a petroleum based product.

The photos don’t seem to show evidence of seal damage, rust or corrosive pitting damage. The parts looked pretty good considering that pump failed – go figure. But it looked like the first photos you found, although I think that one looked overheated. Initial reaction is the pistons or some other internal parts don’t meet spec tolerance anymore to produce 200 bar pressures.

Side note: Ethanol’s BTU value is about half that of normal US or European gasoline. The rumors about ethanol damaging pumps may have started from a comment in the BMW owner’s manual regarding not to exceed a certain percentage ethanol blend. BMW’s horsepower figures are based on the upper range octane levels so I think they’re more concerned about the engine’s ability to adjust for higher blends. It’s interesting that Brazilian auto have been running 20 to 25 ethanol blends for years. They’ve just released a 100 percent pure ethanol prototype but its fuel system is almost entirely stainless steel, whereas with lower blends that’s not required.

[KrisNL]

I am wondering if there are any statistics on failing HPFP and location? Seems like most of the failures are in US where the Octane in fuel is lower and more additives are added in the fuel.

Just hope I never get this failure...
Gonna check my oil today, yesterday night got a 'oil level at minimum' sign after 17000 km.

[HerrK]

Originally Posted by teagueAMX

It's interesting that a South African forum features the discussion about these pumps they are pretty sure is a problem "in the States". But at least one guy had a failed pump and featured a lot of photos of it plus the brand new one he installed.

Yes it would be interesting to see BMW's statistics on N54 HPFP pumps as to location -vs- failure rate, failure mode, etc. I wouldn't rule out a fuel related issue, but then after all that is part of the design criteria, fuel is not the same everywhere. Since the failures seem to be reported world wide - I suspect that it is a material or quality control issue.

It is somewhat reassuring, although certainly frustrating for those affected by the continuing failure sage, that BMW appears to be working this issue with some dilligence. 7 versions of the pump in 4 years since introduction of this technology in the N54 in late 2006. Obviously they have some confidence in resolving this to an acceptable MTBF rate or they would have changed to a completely different type of pump for the N55.

One thing I've learned in my 30+ years of ownership of BMW MC is to wait at least 2-3 years after introduction, before buying, a new innovative technology from BMW. In the direct fuel injection system & related HPFP pump they are struggling. Angst - it is the German way.

[KrisNL]

I have understood, from a German guy (working for Bosch), that the problems are caused by the additives in US fuel and low RON. In the BMW manual there is an article about minimum RON and additives in fuel. So I think BMW will win the lawsuit anyway. A car manufacturer is not responsible for all the badd additives US oil companies put in their fuel to make it cheaper. In Europe there have been hardly any fuel pump problems I heard.

[Rafale]

Well glad I did not get myself a N54 although was this close to do it. I always suspected the fuel in the US to have something to do with it...

[teagueAMX]

Originally Posted by KrisNL

I have understood, from a German guy (working for Bosch), that the problems are caused by the additives in US fuel and low RON. In the BMW manual there is an article about minimum RON and additives in fuel. So I think BMW will win the lawsuit anyway. A car manufacturer is not responsible for all the badd additives US oil companies put in their fuel to make it cheaper. In Europe there have been hardly any fuel pump problems I heard.

I can allow for "caused by the additives in US fuel" because that's an unknown which can't be entirely ruled out, but low RON? That's a measure of octane (resistance to combustion), which has nothing to do with the quality of the fuel or otherwise.

With all due respect KrisNL, just because he's German and just because he may work for Bosch (what type of job, what are his qualifications, etc.), doesn't mean he's got any more of a clue than the joker standing on a curb in Anytown, USA. I think this whole "it's got to the US fuel" has more to do with people being in denial that their beloved BMW may have created an imperfect product. Besides, that the kind of marketing disinformation huge corporations dish out when they don't like to admit they screwed up.

Let's face it - the US is a huge market for BMW. Furthermore, the US has to be huge market for n54 engines, and quite possibly larger than other parts of the world simply due to fuel prices. BMW, along with the the other premium auto manufactures sell their wares around the world, but without the US premium market they would all be hurting right now in spite of the recession. That world picture is changing over time and places like China and the middle-east are starting to take the forefront.

However, in terms of shear numbers, BMW sold over a million cars in North America between 2009 and 2010, many of them equipped with n54 engines. So yes, it's the "US fuel" if for no other reason than statistically we're burning more fuel in n54 engines than anyone else in the world. So if something is going to breakdown, it going to do it in statistically higher numbers in the US.

But let's ask ourselves, if it is the "US Fuel" that's making the HPFP fail, why isn't BMW's other HPFP in the 400HP 4.4l V8 used in the X5, X6, 5 Series and 7 Series failing at the same rates? Matter of fact, the SUV market is almost entirely owned by the US, is it not? They must be burning some of that low grade, stuff that will rot your tank, very destructive "US Fuel". What about Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, Ferrari, etc., who also produce cars equipped with HPFPs for the US market? Haven't heard of a class action lawsuit against them of late.

Folks, let's not be in denial. BMW is a fantastic company and will get this fixed, but until then, let's place blame where it belongs. And, don't let BMW off the hook until then.

[BMWZ4]

From jalopnik earlier:

http://jalopnik.com/5673591/how-fans...ulty-fuel-pump

Dave

[KrisNL]

Well, the Bosch guy I met (business related) knows this topic has been discussed internally between Bosch and BMW. He knew tests performed in Germany with qualified fuel were not showing any failures. Failures are, his opinion not mine, caused by (non-allowed) additives or fuel from the bottom of a tank with dirt. The guy is in sales of parts for several suppliers.

I do not know about the rules on tanks in US, but here in Holland there is a minimum level alarm in gas stations so you never can use the last xx % of a tank (segmentation (right word?)). That is regularly filtered/cleaned.