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      08-11-2009, 05:38 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyltonk View Post
Just installed Vishnu piggy back upgrade - 70 WHP and 120 Ft/lb extra torque. Have 7 spd, dual clutch box. Car is still smooth and the low end is addictive. Serious punch and half the price of Dinan. Installed myself in 45 minutes, fully reversible, and they are amazing with answering questions. Best bang for the buck, by far.
120ft/lb added tq would be close to 400 ft/lb and is not possible with a software flash and pump fuel you would need a very agressive/dangerous tune with race fuel and other mods to the car to get anywhere close. Are you sure you got your numbers right ? Also if this was true you would have exceeded the tq rating of the DCT transmission and put yourself at risk of a major repair bill. To correctly raise the power on a DCT car you also need to re-write the DCT software.
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      08-11-2009, 05:54 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rom3n View Post
120ft/lb added tq would be close to 400 ft/lb and is not possible with a software flash and pump fuel you would need a very agressive/dangerous tune with race fuel and other mods to the car to get anywhere close. Are you sure you got your numbers right ? Also if this was true you would have exceeded the tq rating of the DCT transmission and put yourself at risk of a major repair bill. To correctly raise the power on a DCT car you also need to re-write the DCT software.
Suggest spend some time in a 135i/335i/535i forum that discusses tuning the N-54 mill. No argument on exceeding the torque rating of the DCT - it's an area where tuners will test BMW's penchant for under-rating its specs. But a number of tuners have gotten this engine into the 420 lb-ft range with piggybacks (JB; AA) and with direct firmware modification ( a la Dinan), and this with normal fuel etc. As a Dinan dealer said to me one time about the N-54 engine: "they sure left a lot of horsepower on the table..."
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      08-11-2009, 06:01 PM   #25
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There is no doubt that you can make some serious power but how long will it last. We are with ESS in that we take the more conservative route. We dont want to hear about worn turbos and other issues a year later. Also, the dyno numbers are just a number. Where one car can dyno 420whp at one shop doesnt mean it will make that same number elsewhere. I have had guys who dynoed 380whp elsewhere only to dyno 290whp here.
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      08-11-2009, 06:44 PM   #26
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Vishnu - just ask for Robert in customer service. He knows what he sold me, was exact kit for 335i. I bought two identical kits at same time and put one in friends 335 and one in mine. Worked exactly as promised, no error codes. Performance you can feel, but both cars are running slightly hotter, and there is a burning oil smell, think the turbos are getting a workout at lower revs, hence the better torque. Going to upgrade standard oil cooler to higher capacity unit. But love the drive, feels like a V8.
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      08-11-2009, 06:53 PM   #27
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As to questions about numbers, you might all be right, I am not going to dyno anytime soon. BUt there is a definite increase in drivable torque and in the end, going to let my rear end tell me if the ride is improved, we do no drive numbers. I had an M5 before this, worst car I've ever had. Gearbox from hell. You can take all the V10 and all the numbers, still a heavy lump to play with. This Z4 is fun. And this gearbox, smooth is an understatement. BMW made the M5 with the wrong box, bet you they change to this kind, next time around. Beats rowing gears around town and gear changes are seamless. Downshifts are rev matched, very cool to play with. Almost makes me feel like I know what I'm doing......lol.
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      08-11-2009, 07:36 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Ducky View Post
Suggest spend some time in a 135i/335i/535i forum that discusses tuning the N-54 mill. No argument on exceeding the torque rating of the DCT - it's an area where tuners will test BMW's penchant for under-rating its specs. But a number of tuners have gotten this engine into the 420 lb-ft range with piggybacks (JB; AA) and with direct firmware modification ( a la Dinan), and this with normal fuel etc. As a Dinan dealer said to me one time about the N-54 engine: "they sure left a lot of horsepower on the table..."
I have spent time on the 135 and 335 forums and for every thread that I see with customers wanting to roll the dice with these motors and make big power on dynos I also see just as many with customers having limp mode issues, error codes and engine failures. Just because you can do something does not mean you should.

I Never said 400+ ft/lb cant be done I have seen all the claims and dynos from the piggyback tuners that show cars producing 400+ ft/lb tq on these motors but its not by simply installing a standard piggyback on a stock motor with pump fuel. Even the best piggybacks running pump fuel produce 340-360ft/lb tq on these motors. To get over 400 It would require a very agressive tune pushing the stock turbos well beyond where BMW designed them to perform along with race fuel / meth and other mods like upgraded IC and downpipes. We are very familiar with the engine management systems for the N54 motors and we know what can and cannot be done sefely.
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      08-11-2009, 08:50 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by RPIpower View Post
We've been looking for a car here in so cal for a while now for intercooler, intake and exhaust development.
You guys have a different web site address? I googled "rpi power" and got

http://www.rpipower.com/

but this screen came up:
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Last edited by teagueAMX; 08-11-2009 at 09:34 PM..
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      08-11-2009, 09:12 PM   #30
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You guys are having a great debate about what's possible and what's not with firmware flashes, but I'd like to ask a follow up to my previous question in this thread about the DCT.

I was looking at the Z4, comparing it to the M3 and trying to figure out what it would take BMW to make a e89 M, including weight, suspension, etc. I frankly think they could slip the M3 v8 in the e89 chassis because the track widths are virtually identical (60.5 in v 59.5). But while doing that I realized the M3 has a "M" DCT option as well (sorry folks, don't kill me, I'm new to Bimmers). As I'm sure you'll all aware, that engine has a rating of 414 hp and 295 tq, whereas the Z4 n54 has a rating of 300 hp and 300 tq. I'm sure the tq rating is more critical due to shock value on a launch.

So my question is this:

Appart from BMW's rating of the two DCT's, does anyone know what's the real difference between a M DCT and Z4 DCT. I find it hard to believe there is a real physical difference, maybe even the part number.

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      08-12-2009, 12:20 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by teagueAMX View Post
You guys have a different web site address? I googled "rpi power" and got

http://www.rpipower.com/

but this screen came up:
www.raceprecision.com
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      08-12-2009, 03:46 PM   #32
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I will be installing the JB+ and BMS single cone filter this weekend. I will let you know how it goes. I will post some pics as well. I would much rather tune by flash, but no local tuners have anything specifically for the Z4. I traded a couple of emails with Austin at GIAC, great tuner IMHO. Dinan's flash is not ready yet. We'll see what pans out.
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      08-12-2009, 06:04 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin turbo View Post
I will be installing the JB+ and BMS single cone filter this weekend. I will let you know how it goes. I will post some pics as well. I would much rather tune by flash, but no local tuners have anything specifically for the Z4. I traded a couple of emails with Austin at GIAC, great tuner IMHO. Dinan's flash is not ready yet. We'll see what pans out.
Why are people still buying hot air intakes?
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      08-12-2009, 07:39 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by RPIpower View Post
Why are people still buying hot air intakes?
I have read several threads with dynos that disprove the whole hot air intake myth. Air gets heated by turbos and cooled through intercooler, intake temperature not relavent. Mainly installing the intake for the sound, very little performance gain if any.
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      08-13-2009, 12:21 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin turbo View Post
I have read several threads with dynos that disprove the whole hot air intake myth. Air gets heated by turbos and cooled through intercooler, intake temperature not relavent. Mainly installing the intake for the sound, very little performance gain if any.
Jb+ is placed on tmap sensor, right?
Is the z4/n54 tmap sensor also found directly under the airfilter box ?
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      08-13-2009, 12:15 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin turbo View Post
I have read several threads with dynos that disprove the whole hot air intake myth. Air gets heated by turbos and cooled through intercooler, intake temperature not relavent. Mainly installing the intake for the sound, very little performance gain if any.
Complete nonsense as the thermal efficiency of an intercooler is relative to the inlet, outlet and the ambient temperature. I have NEVER seen an intake of that nature to make any power unless you are going to dyno it with the hood open and a fan blowing at the filter. Id like to know why is it that a car with one of those intakes goes into limp mode after 4-5 consecutive dyno pulls whereas with the stock, it can go on for 15+ consecutive runs.
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      08-13-2009, 12:34 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPIpower View Post
Complete nonsense as the thermal efficiency of an intercooler is relative to the inlet, outlet and the ambient temperature. I have NEVER seen an intake of that nature to make any power unless you are going to dyno it with the hood open and a fan blowing at the filter. Id like to know why is it that a car with one of those intakes goes into limp mode after 4-5 consecutive dyno pulls whereas with the stock, it can go on for 15+ consecutive runs.
We have also tested the open filter intakes on our 335 and found that with the hood closed or open the car loses power the more we ran it on the dyno. The stock air box on BMW's is actually very good.
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      08-13-2009, 12:45 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Rom3n View Post
We have also tested the open filter intakes on our 335 and found that with the hood closed or open the car loses power the more we ran it on the dyno. The stock air box on BMW's is actually very good.
Yep. The key to making more power with the intake is to get more air into the stock intake system. Even then, you have to worry about air turbulance.

This whole hot air intake discussion has been talked about on the m5board and e60.net. No one on those sites buys them but I guess this forum might be a little behind.
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      08-13-2009, 06:20 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by RPIpower View Post
Yep. The key to making more power with the intake is to get more air into the stock intake system. Even then, you have to worry about air turbulance.

This whole hot air intake discussion has been talked about on the m5board and e60.net. No one on those sites buys them but I guess this forum might be a little behind.
All of the threads I read were on e90post and N54tech. There are literally a couple of thousand 335's with the same or similar intakes. It's funny that there would be that many people using hot air intakes and all losing power. Most state that there are no real performance gains until 5,000 rpm and 14 psi of boost or higher. Many have proven these intakes reduce the work load on the turbos which offsets the slightly higher intake temps.
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      08-13-2009, 06:23 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by yabbanoname View Post
Jb+ is placed on tmap sensor, right?
Is the z4/n54 tmap sensor also found directly under the airfilter box ?
Yep. Not sure, I haven't looked at the install instructions yet. I plan to do the install this weekend and will let you know.
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      08-13-2009, 11:25 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin turbo View Post
All of the threads I read were on e90post and N54tech. There are literally a couple of thousand 335's with the same or similar intakes. It's funny that there would be that many people using hot air intakes and all losing power. Most state that there are no real performance gains until 5,000 rpm and 14 psi of boost or higher. Many have proven these intakes reduce the work load on the turbos which offsets the slightly higher intake temps.
First you should not be runing these turbos over 14-15psi if you are interested in the longevity of your turbos. There is no intake that will help with the stress this puts on the stock turbos. Second what most people dont take into consideration with "dyno mods" is how these mods work in real world applications because they simply do not understand anything outside of dyno charts. What you typically see is someone who installs a mod, straps the car to a dyno and makes a sigle run or maybe 2 take the higher of the numbers and post them on forums. What you find when you correctly durability test most of these mods is they lose alot of power the more you run them like they would be used in the real world. In the case of these new turbo motors alot of times these high temps and high boost levels cause the car to go into a limp mode and or shut down.

Like Eloy stated before he gets a lot of cars on his dyno and he most likely runs them 5-6 times back to back to see how consistant the gains are. We do the exact same thing when we test our software or our superharger kits because its not what the car does on a single dyno run but how its going to perform in rush hour traffic or out on the track. These are things you simply cannot judge by running a car on a dyno once or twice.

Here is a post by a 335 customer who did some testing and found out that the open filter cone intakes work great for a quick dyno run but not so well with continued use http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290054 you can see how consistant the OEM intake power was VS how the cone filter lost 20+ HP after only 2 runs. Now imagine if he ran this intake 6-7 times in a row. You can also see that the customer believes the only reason the open cone filter did as well as it did on the first run was because the motor was cool. This is the same result we got when we tested one of these intakes on our test car. This is a very good example of how vendors can advertise gains with products by simply not telling the whole story or by showing you only what they want you to see.
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      08-14-2009, 12:31 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin turbo View Post
All of the threads I read were on e90post and N54tech. There are literally a couple of thousand 335's with the same or similar intakes. It's funny that there would be that many people using hot air intakes and all losing power. Most state that there are no real performance gains until 5,000 rpm and 14 psi of boost or higher. Many have proven these intakes reduce the work load on the turbos which offsets the slightly higher intake temps.
Unfortunately, a lot of stuff people put on their cars doesn't really make it run better, although it might seem cool.

The issue is a really a matter of simple physics that's undeniable (although some will try). A gasoline engine needs an air to fuel mixture of around 14.7:1. That is 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel. This may change a bit over time and with different engine setups, but the ratio is pretty much the same.

In the old days, some of us had to use manual carburetor chokes on a cold day. The cold air had a higher density and a cold engine couldn’t immediately warm the air, so a choke had to be used to restrict the amount of air. In effect an engine setup to run at normal operating temperature would get too much cold dense air. That's the physics part: air with a greater density (cold air) must be "choked" so the 14.7:1 remains. Essentially, the air molecules are closer together, or more compact, when the air is cold. The inverse is true as well warm or hot air is less compact.

Said another way, a volume of cold air measuring 1 cubic foot is heavier than the same volume of warm air.

A trick racers used to do was put ice on their intake manifolds just before the race started resulting in a denser air charge being pulled into the engine. The carburetor was setup to provide a richer mixture of gas accordingly and would produce more horsepower - sort of like a supercharger/turbocharger dose by packing pressurized air into the engine.

The heat generated by the engine causes the air in the engine bay to be far less dense that air outside you engine compartment. That's the reason for hood scopes and air ducts that pull in outside air. When a car moves at just about any speed a pressure dam of air builds up in front of the radiator which is cooler and denser than the engine compartment, so a duct is often used in this location.

A turbocharger works because it pressurizes available air and shoves it into the combustion chamber, increasing the dynamic compression ratio. Even though the engine's static compression ratio (e.g., cylinder volume vs combustion chamber volume) doesn't change, the dynamic compression ratio does change based on air density in the cylinder.

A higher dynamic compression ratio = more air/fuel to burn = more horsepower.
A lower dynamic compression
ratio = less air/fuel to burn equals less horsepower.

Air expanding as it goes through a hot turbocharger tends to offset its function: the turbocharger wants to increase air density (compress) whereas the heat from the turbocharger wants to decrease air density (decompress), so an intercooler is required to remove heat, thus restoring air density. If hot air from the engine compartment is drawn into the turbocharger, the compressed air exiting the turbocharger is less dense than it could be if cooler air was used to begin with. Staring off with hot air in effect nullifies than the intercooler's function and power is lost because the intercooler's ability to extract heat is limited.

BMW's car computer is smart enough to sense the factors that contribute to the dynamic compression calculation, and alters the amount of fuel, ignition timing, valve opening duration and timing, etc. Such factors include octane of the gas, engine temp, outside air temp, air density, etc. Again, if the car's computer senses the air coming into the engine is less dense it reduces the amount of fuel injected into the combustion chamber because it has to maintain the 14.7:1 ratio. Less fuel means less horsepower.
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      08-14-2009, 12:33 AM   #43
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I found the throttle response significantly improved with the BMS DCI's vs stock.

I think Terry from BMS has done some real-time data logging (doing real-world in-gear pulls) with the DCI's vs stock and discovered that IAT's are *not* affected significantly.

In fact since the stock turbos have to work less hard sucking in the air (less restriction+shorter intake tracts) they work slightly cooler also building booster faster thus offsetting any minor power losses from hot air.
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      08-14-2009, 12:44 PM   #44
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I found the throttle response significantly improved with the BMS DCI's vs stock.

I think Terry from BMS has done some real-time data logging (doing real-world in-gear pulls) with the DCI's vs stock and discovered that IAT's are *not* affected significantly.

In fact since the stock turbos have to work less hard sucking in the air (less restriction+shorter intake tracts) they work slightly cooler also building booster faster thus offsetting any minor power losses from hot air.
Here's a link to some of the testing you are referring to.

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2014

BMS has sold over 1,000 intakes alone, and he is a small tuner. What about all the other tuners with similar intakes that have been sold. That would mean thousands of intake users are all losing power and experiencing limp modes. I think many of them would have come forward by now and stated that there intake doesn't work and they have switched back to the factory intake if this were the case.
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