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      05-01-2013, 12:51 PM   #23
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I agree with Hoa, the rear section of the exhaust is definitely different between models,.

In regards to not caring about r&d and asking for a less powerful tune than stage 1 is kind of silly, IMO.

Just go with the stage 1and call it a day.

To ask a manufacture to add a inferior product for a cheaper price and then tell them you don't care about their time and effort is pretty rude.

I am in the manufacturing business and I'll tell you a product line consists of different levels aimed at price point and consumer needs, wants, and values.

You say that there is a consumer that wants a "poor man's IS" , but most of that pool that would modify their vehicle, yet do not want to pay for an is would go with any option like Cobb, jb4, or ess.

Why add a stage( that requires r&d) that is inferior to already an existing tune for the sake of satisfying a price point category ? You in your own word said copy the 35is tune for those who can't afford the car.


Everyone else is telling you that ess, jb4, and Cobb already have that covered with stage 1.

You say no, you want the over boost and can't handle the stage 1 power.

My friend if you feel you can't handle stage 1 then most of us doubt you would even notice the overboost. Because you wouldn't push the car to get to that point.

Anyways good luck getting suppliers to help your tune when you only care about the price, and not their efforts.

Cheers!
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      05-01-2013, 09:40 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Hoa View Post
the wheels are different, 35is model also come with larger brakes and different exhaust. just because its not listed on the website doesn't mean its not different. im sure bmw have their reasons to make it more expensive. for 2013+ the 35is model will come with almost every single option which translate to about 1800 less than previous years
Did not know about brake or exhaust differences. Can you explain what they are and how they could affect vehicle performance/handling/operating characteristics.

So what is BMW's reason for $5,300 upcharge (2014 35i to 35is at same option level)? If you're "sure" they have a reason, what is it? Larger brakes and a somehow different exhaust? If you don't know the reason, then you're not sure at all, are you?

I am not now nor have I previously compared the MY2013/14 35is to prior years. I AM comparing the MY2014 35is to the MY2014 35i. Any other comparison is irrelevant as far as my points go. You are, of course, welcome to make some of your own points if and when you have some.
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      05-01-2013, 09:43 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Vintage View Post
...I was simply supporting your quest for a modified ESS tune.
No, you were not supporting MY "quest." You were replacing the "baby boost" I was discussing with the ESS Stage 1 tune you own. One is NOT the same as the other. As the saying goes, "with friends like this, ..."
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      05-01-2013, 10:31 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by jts1981 View Post
I agree with Hoa, the rear section of the exhaust is definitely different between models,.
Do you happen to know what, if any, functional difference the modified exhaust makes to the vehicle's operating characteristics?

Quote:
In regards to not caring about r&d and asking for a less powerful tune than stage 1 is kind of silly, IMO. Just go with the stage 1and call it a day. To ask a manufacture to add a inferior product for a cheaper price and then tell them you don't care about their time and effort is pretty rude.
You are mischaracterizing my remarks. As a consumer, I care nothing about the R&D expenses incurred BY ANY COMPANY. I care only about the product's efficacy, utility, and its costs (initial, operating, and maintenance).

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I am in the manufacturing business and I'll tell you a product line consists of different levels aimed at price point and consumer needs, wants, and values.
A clear and sensible proposition based on experience. Congratulations, apparently everything you say is NOT either irrelevant, a distortion, or asserted without evidence. Keep it up. As to your proposition, I am merely suggesting that ESS widen its product line to attract more customers, many of whom would NEVER purchase ANYTHING from the company until and unless first buying the "baby boost" I described.

Quote:
You say that there is a consumer that wants a "poor man's IS" , but most of that pool that would modify their vehicle, yet do not want to pay for an is would go with any option like Cobb, jb4, or ess.
I am proof there is at least one such consumer. I offered to purchase the first ESS "sHADOW" tune should the company decide to offer it.

Quote:
Why add a stage( that requires r&d) that is inferior to already an existing tune for the sake of satisfying a price point category ? You in your own word said copy the 35is tune for those who can't afford the car.
Oh, dear. We're back to mischaracterizations, strawmen, and pejoratives. And you were coming along so well! C'est dommage.

To cases: the R&D involved in the "baby boost" should be trivial as it has ALREADY BEEN DONE BY BMW (Siemens, actually)! It can be found in the ECU of the 35is. Duh! Furthermore, the question of the "baby boost" being "inferior" depends on whether it serves the business interests of ESS and meets the needs of potential customers, no? If the "sHADOW" tune attracts 35i customers who would not have considered an ESS Stage 1/2 purchase, then to the extent these NEW customers deliver profit, ESS gains. Furthermore, some number of these "baby boosters" will go on to upgrade to the full ESS Stage 1/2 tunes, something they would NEVER have considered otherwise. These upgraders will provide ESS additional revenue which can be used to fully offset the (minimal) cost of "sHADOW" development as well as cover the subsidy represented by its discounted price (relative to the full Stage 1/2 product).

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Everyone else is telling you that ess, jb4, and Cobb already have that covered with stage 1.

You say no, you want the over boost and can't handle the stage 1 power.

My friend if you feel you can't handle stage 1 then most of us doubt you would even notice the overboost. Because you wouldn't push the car to get to that point.
You may have divined from my prior posts that I'm not the type to be overly concerned with what "everyone else tells me." Maybe not.

Again, I did NOT say I could not handle Stage 1. I said I would rather pay a modest amount to transform my 35i into a 35is (as inferior and undesirable as you apparently believe the IS to be) saving approx. $5,000 which is serious money to me, maybe not to others. I would then have ample opportunity to develop my driving skills in my 35i-sHADOW before entertaining the prospect of spending more money (ESS upgrade) and effort learning to control the vehicle under a Stage 1 tune. Whether or not I EVER push the car to its limits in either stock, "baby boost," or Stage 1/2 is no concern whatsoever of yours and is completely irrelevant to the discussion. I do not critique your driving skills and methods; you should extend me the same courtesy.

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Anyways good luck getting suppliers to help your tune when you only care about the price, and not their efforts.
I am presenting a BUSINESS proposition to ESS, not challenging their tuners' egos or abilities. You say you know business, yet you don't know a business proposition when you read one, and you evidence no application of analytical skills to the business case I present. Will it make ESS money or not? That is the central question. I have presented an argument that it will. Your objections notwithstanding, that argument still stands.
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      05-01-2013, 11:46 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by williakz View Post
Did not know about brake or exhaust differences. Can you explain what they are and how they could affect vehicle performance/handling/operating characteristics.

So what is BMW's reason for $5,300 upcharge (2014 35i to 35is at same option level)? If you're "sure" they have a reason, what is it? Larger brakes and a somehow different exhaust? If you don't know the reason, then you're not sure at all, are you?

I am not now nor have I previously compared the MY2013/14 35is to prior years. I AM comparing the MY2014 35is to the MY2014 35i. Any other comparison is irrelevant as far as my points go. You are, of course, welcome to make some of your own points if and when you have some.
dont be an ass... no one will like you. i was just pointing out some differences thats not listed on the website.

go to realoem.com and compare all part numbers. i only named a few obvious parts. there are more. do a search in this forum and you will see several threads where people swap out their regular 35i exhuast to 35is exhaust and how much they love the exhaust note afterwards. the exhaust is 1300 just for the rear section. here is one member upgrading to the 35is exhaust http://e89.zpost.com/forums/showpost...4&postcount=10

there is a for sale thread for the brakes as well. someone got them to upgrade but changed their mind. it cost 1350 for the rear and around the same for the front. here is a link if you dont know how to search http://e89.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=719381

All r&d will cost money. Everything will cost more for low volume item. What low volume item could be produced at a lower cost than mass production? if you can give me a good example, I will mail you a candy.

1300 exhaust
1350 front brakes
1350 rear brakes
-----------------
this already allocate 4,000 for just 3 items. add up the tune and some other minor parts and im sure it will be around your number that you are yapping about
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      05-02-2013, 12:05 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoa View Post

dont be an ass... no one will like you. i was just pointing out some differences thats not listed on the website.

Not here to be liked. Here to get information. My asshattery got you off your butt and got me some. Thanks. I'll check it out and get back with you.
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      05-02-2013, 01:08 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoa View Post

1300 exhaust
1350 front brakes
1350 rear brakes
-----------------
this already allocate 4,000 for just 3 items. add up the tune and some other minor parts and im sure it will be around your number that you are yapping about
Your cost figures are in the ballpark, but they cost out ONLY new 35is parts. When comparing one car with a new exhaust to another one with a new exhaust, you must cost out BOTH new exhausts and then calculate the price difference BETWEEN the two. When you do this with the 35i (costing out front and rear brakes and rear exhaust) AND with the 35is (same parts), the cost difference between the two sets of parts is less than $400 TOTAL.

Not $4,000 as you calculated, but $400. So my $5,000 unexplained price difference between the 2014 35i and 35is stands. BTW, I hope you don't have anything to do with the finances in your home or business - you really need some help with the basic principles of comparative costing.
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      05-02-2013, 06:31 AM   #30
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No it's not worth any tuners time to go back and lower boost on their current stage 1. If people are willing to mod their car for performance gains then the numbers do count. And when a 35i owner sees the inherent value of stage 1 being more hp than the premium model why would anyone want LESS?


And yes I do know business, I always run into people like you that don't think things through and ask for a product that has no merit. Just because you see it as an opportunity doesn't mean it is.

Again, good luck. You seem to be a real people person and I'm sure you'll find what you are looking for.
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      05-02-2013, 11:43 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williakz View Post
Your cost figures are in the ballpark, but they cost out ONLY new 35is parts. When comparing one car with a new exhaust to another one with a new exhaust, you must cost out BOTH new exhausts and then calculate the price difference BETWEEN the two. When you do this with the 35i (costing out front and rear brakes and rear exhaust) AND with the 35is (same parts), the cost difference between the two sets of parts is less than $400 TOTAL.

Not $4,000 as you calculated, but $400. So my $5,000 unexplained price difference between the 2014 35i and 35is stands. BTW, I hope you don't have anything to do with the finances in your home or business - you really need some help with the basic principles of comparative costing.
have you calculated in bmw's r&d cost yet?

bmw can charge any price they want and people will pay so stop complaining if its too steep for you. someone will pay for it. just like the m5/m6 exhaust coming out soon, it will bare a price between 8-10k and i can see plenty of people ready to pay for it.

i paid 58k for my fully loaded z435is when the sticker was 75k last year. i paid 84k for my rr lux when the sticker was 98k. i also purchased a house for 1.7m when the market was ugly and now its back to 3.2m so i think i did pretty ok for myself.

i am not responding to this thread anymore. this is just stupid. make your own thread and complain about bmw pricing
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      05-02-2013, 02:36 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by williakz View Post
Not here to be liked. Here to get information. My asshattery got you off your butt and got me some.


BTW, has this thread helped you feel better about not getting the "top shelf" 35is model?
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      05-02-2013, 02:50 PM   #33
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2010 E89 35i  [0.00]
Sorry to see my "nickname" or parts of it in this tread. I stopped reading after the first page.
ESS stage1 makes more harmony to the car.
ESS stage2 is so bloody fun when you want to use the right foot.
80 HP for less than 1000$, that is a bargain!

Where do I find a car that will never be improved or facelifted? So I don't feel sad because I bought the car that that I wanted at the time and start crying cause my neighbour got 34HP more than me!

Shadow4 likes ESS!
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      05-02-2013, 06:13 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post


BTW, has this thread helped you feel better about not getting the "top shelf" 35is model?
You putting a dog into this one, nick? Why?
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      05-02-2013, 06:53 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by williakz View Post
You putting a dog into this one, nick? Why?
Your response to Hoa seemed so.... BMW driver... if you catch my meaning.. Just didn't seem like the way to respond to a community member trying to provide helpful information

Perhaps there was sarcasm I didn't detect.. either way... I hope the tone of the thread changes up.. it really is an interesting idea to try and convert a 35i to a 35is for a low/reasonable cost.
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      05-02-2013, 07:09 PM   #36
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williakz - I not sure I follow your logic. Just because there is only $400 difference in parts that's all you think BMW should mark up the car. If you used that logic the car new would only cost $35,000 or $40k compared to a Ford Mustang at the same price. Were talking about what is thought of as a premium brand that charges accordingly, whether deserved or not. People pay and BMW keeps making money. You and I both found a price point we were comfortable with in the 35i and decided to not pay more. Until there are a lot more people looking for the same IS tune you want, your S.O.L.
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      05-02-2013, 08:56 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by wparente View Post
williakz - I not sure I follow your logic. Just because there is only $400 difference in parts that's all you think BMW should mark up the car. If you used that logic the car new would only cost $35,000 or $40k compared to a Ford Mustang at the same price. Were talking about what is thought of as a premium brand that charges accordingly, whether deserved or not. People pay and BMW keeps making money. You and I both found a price point we were comfortable with in the 35i and decided to not pay more. Until there are a lot more people looking for the same IS tune you want, your S.O.L.
Whoa there, hoss! I NEVER, EVER said that BMW should sell a 35is for the cost of parts difference over the 35i. This view has been assigned me by a number of posters here who, like yourself, have difficulty reading and comprehending plain English. To keep you from the frustrating and apparently pointless task of apprehending my meaning from previous posts, I will restate the proposition once again below just for you. No need to thank me.

For all intents and purposes, the 35is is a 35i with a slightly different tuning map in the ECU. (I have since been informed that the 35is has 20mm larger brakes and a modified rear exhaust section as well.) The total PARTS COST difference between the two models when equally optioned is approx. $400. The total PRICE difference (list prices of 35is vs 35i) is approx. $5,300. Therefore, the unexplained (NOT, NOT, NOT UNJUSTIFIED!) price difference between the two cars is approx. $5,000 AND an ECU tuning map. My thesis is that if ESS extracted the 35is tuning map, reformatted it for use in the 35i, and only charged me, say, $499 then I would effectively be able to enjoy the performance of a 35is while paying $5,000 less. I would "suffer" the smaller brakes and modified exhaust, but in order to make it a more or less "real" 35is, the ESS "sHADOW" or "baby boost" tune must be acquired and installed. This is not possible at present as ESS has chosen not to create it. I therefore am advancing an economic case for ESS to create it. Oh, and on your point about customer demand driving innovation, remember all the kids screaming for green and purple ketchup? Boy, they really got Heinz on the stick, didn't they?

There, that wasn't so bad, was it? As an exercise, you may wish review my previous posts and see if you find more of your interpretation of my words there or more of mine. When mine, you're making progress. Keep it up.

Last edited by williakz; 05-02-2013 at 09:16 PM.. Reason: Update for Customer Demand
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      05-02-2013, 08:58 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
Your response to Hoa seemed so.... BMW driver... if you catch my meaning.. Just didn't seem like the way to respond to a community member trying to provide helpful information

Perhaps there was sarcasm I didn't detect.. either way... I hope the tone of the thread changes up.. it really is an interesting idea to try and convert a 35i to a 35is for a low/reasonable cost.
That's better. I like to think of him all snuggly and warm in his little house out back. He really should be left to scratch fleas and lick himself rather than bare his teeth here.
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      05-02-2013, 09:50 PM   #39
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"excellent discussion and I bought the 35i before the is was available! I like the $499 idea."

please read the first sentence of my post - sorry your quest simply highlights your true nature. best of luck; I am sure Roman and ESS will help you after reading your silly, pedantic rants.
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      05-03-2013, 12:23 AM   #40
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"excellent discussion and I bought the 35i before the is was available! I like the $499 idea."

please read the first sentence of my post - sorry your quest simply highlights your true nature. best of luck; I am sure Roman and ESS will help you after reading your silly, pedantic rants.
You have evidently developed a rudimentary capability to locate and quote portions of your OWN prior posts in an effort to make a point (although it's not clear you even have a point to make). Why then don't you use this new-found power to address my points? To wit, explain how the following lines that YOU wrote are in SUPPORT of my proposal:

"I should have waited for and bought the iS for the money or simply bought a 35i with ESS stage 1."

and

"I love my ESS stage 1 - love it; the car has more power but it is smoother and more sophisticated than stock."

YOU made both statements. Both statements are in opposition to my proposal. Therefore, YOU do NOT support my proposal. QED

OR

You are incapable of expressing clear, coherent, logically consistent thoughts at all. This would explain your devolution into sputtering rage and crass invective. Like they say, "with friends like you, ..."

Last edited by williakz; 05-03-2013 at 12:28 AM..
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      05-03-2013, 04:25 PM   #41
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spend some time outdoors - best of luck
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      05-03-2013, 05:11 PM   #42
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spend some time outdoors - best of luck
Vintage, I have always found your contributions clear, coherent, and logically consistent.
You should be more sensitive to send anyone with a convertible outdoors when their weather forecast is ugly. You know how bitchy we all get with crappy weather. I'm a bit surprised at you.

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      06-04-2013, 01:54 PM   #43
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Sorry, I just ran into this thread randomly. I'm not a Z4 owner, but a 328i turbo owner. But I think the value of this thread is being diminished by all the arguing. I think this is a really good idea. This could be applied to the 335i -> 335is tuning as well

I can imagine a lot of people would want the 35is map as it was R&D'd through BMW. Some people don't get tunes because they think a custom tune is bad for their car or will wear out the turbos faster. This worry is completely put at bay by using a stock 35is map.
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      06-04-2013, 08:37 PM   #44
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The BOSCH ecu is being reverse engineered and will go into open source once all the tables are decrypted, after that it will be easy to basically "copy paste" the needed tables of the 35is ECU (since its using exactly the same as the 35i) and voila, 340hp and overboost function.
What's weird is that for the US market BMW used different brakes for the 35i and 35is, in Europe they use the same size, whats different only is that the exhaust terminal has less restrictors for sound increase, different aesthetics in front and rear bumper, some is and M graphics in dash and interior and silver mirror caps. So basically a fully loaded 35i (like mine which has all the extras) is a 35is without the aesthetics and the overboost function. So basically the OP makes some sense, but for the Euro market.
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