New 2009 2010 BMW Z4 - ZPOST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   New 2009 2010 BMW Z4 - ZPOST > BMW Z4 Forum (E89) > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-14-2014, 09:45 PM   #1
wmandra
Track Addict
wmandra's Avatar
96
Rep
242
Posts

Drives: 2010 328i, 2014 Z4
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NJ, USA

iTrader: (0)

Post N20 Oil Pressure

Not sure how many others are tracking their BMW's with the N20, but figured I'd share some of my findings as it relates to oil pressure. I track my Z4 pretty heavily and in July had a bit of a surprise when running the Pocono Southeast course during MPACT when the car threw several codes related to intake and exhaust camshaft / crankshaft correlation faults. These codes are sets when the camshaft is not in the correct position due to a timing issue. The most common cause is a problem with the VANOS system. Since I hadn't seen these errors thrown previously, I decided to clear them and see if they reappeared under normal driving conditions (which they did not). This let me to believe that the most likely cause was a drop in oil pressure which caused the VANOS solenoids to be "late" vs what the DME had expected. Also, given that Pocono Southeast is comprised of mostly left turns unlike just about every other track in the Northeast, it seemed plausible that the root of the problem was caused by not enough oil in the pan at the pickup location while hard left hand cornering.

Since Pocono, I fitted an oil pressure sensor to the N20 and wired it up to my AIM MXL data logger. Then took the car out for a bit of testing at NJMP Thunderbolt to see if I could confirm my theory. I've attached images of the oil pressure sensor install (which is actually in the same location where BMW would have put a sensor in the oil filter assembly) along with screenshots of the AIM analysis measures and plots.

The first is x/y plot is oil pressure vs lateral acceleration (negative numbers are left turns), second is oil pressure vs longitudinal acceleration (negative numbers are braking) and the third is oil pressure vs RPM. These show oil pressure dropping off when either heavy breaking or turning left, I think it's coincidental that rpm's also happen to be below 3500 at the same time.

I'm not overly concerned about this as the number of samples below the 1.5 bar minimum operating oil pressure is rather low, but still planning on a solution for late November. I'll be working with a vendor that fabricates a good number of parts for BMW's on creating an oil pan baffle for the N20. The biggest challenge I think will be the fact that on non-Xdrive cars the oil pan is actually plastic, but hoping they can come up with something that will work without having to go through the effort (and expense) of manufacturing aluminum oil pans. With any luck once the prototype is fitted and tested in my car, they will start offering them for sale to anyone else who might be interested.
Attached Images
     
__________________
Driver, Ratchet Head Racing #93 BMW Z4
Club Organizer, Garden State Euros Motorsport Division
2014 Glacier Silver Z4 28i M Sport - See the build thread: http://e89.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=950367
Appreciate 1
      08-15-2014, 11:09 AM   #2
nicknaz
Lieutenant General
nicknaz's Avatar
3183
Rep
10,509
Posts

Drives: C6Z
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Thanks for sharing that tech with the rest of the community.

Great patience overcoming the E89 platform strong bias as a "street" car

Do you top off the oil before you track the car?
Appreciate 0
      08-15-2014, 02:23 PM   #3
wmandra
Track Addict
wmandra's Avatar
96
Rep
242
Posts

Drives: 2010 328i, 2014 Z4
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NJ, USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
Thanks for sharing that tech with the rest of the community.

Great patience overcoming the E89 platform strong bias as a "street" car

Do you top off the oil before you track the car?
Thanks. Yes, oil is always topped off before hitting the track.
__________________
Driver, Ratchet Head Racing #93 BMW Z4
Club Organizer, Garden State Euros Motorsport Division
2014 Glacier Silver Z4 28i M Sport - See the build thread: http://e89.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=950367
Appreciate 0
      08-17-2014, 02:01 AM   #4
z4z4z4
Lieutenant
z4z4z4's Avatar
United_States
45
Rep
548
Posts

Drives: 2002 M3
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: mild mediterranean breezes

iTrader: (1)

Good luck with new baffle development. Should be doable to epoxy in place.
Our N54 has a $200 solution already that must be spot welded n place.http://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac-...n54-p1435.aspx

I found a great read on your N20 oil supply beginning on page 65 of tech training manual. Assumimg you have this.
__________________
Sold 2011 Z4, kept 2002 M3
PM for various e89 parts 4sale.

Last edited by z4z4z4; 02-04-2015 at 01:38 AM..
Appreciate 0
      08-17-2014, 09:38 PM   #5
Hujan
Brigadier General
Hujan's Avatar
United_States
567
Rep
3,742
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: .

iTrader: (16)

Cool stuff. Tracking without a baffle makes me nervous. I am surprised that BMW does not put them in any cars, even the M cars. I understand that they might not want to incur the costs of using a dry sump, but installing a baffle would seem to be a pretty easy thing to do at the factory.

Adding an oil pan baffle is on the list of things to do for my M3 if I get into more frequent tracking. Good luck on developing one for the N20! I hope it goes well.
Appreciate 0
      08-19-2014, 11:05 AM   #6
nicknaz
Lieutenant General
nicknaz's Avatar
3183
Rep
10,509
Posts

Drives: C6Z
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hujan View Post
Cool stuff. Tracking without a baffle makes me nervous. I am surprised that BMW does not put them in any cars, even the M cars. I understand that they might not want to incur the costs of using a dry sump, but installing a baffle would seem to be a pretty easy thing to do at the factory.

Adding an oil pan baffle is on the list of things to do for my M3 if I get into more frequent tracking. Good luck on developing one for the N20! I hope it goes well.
My rough understanding is oil starvation is more of an issue if you are using R comps. Maybe its ok if you are sticking to street tires?
Appreciate 0
      08-19-2014, 11:21 AM   #7
wmandra
Track Addict
wmandra's Avatar
96
Rep
242
Posts

Drives: 2010 328i, 2014 Z4
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NJ, USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
My rough understanding is oil starvation is more of an issue if you are using R comps. Maybe its ok if you are sticking to street tires?
all my testing on the N20 has been on street tires (Bridgestone RE-11s). Can't speak to the M3 though.
__________________
Driver, Ratchet Head Racing #93 BMW Z4
Club Organizer, Garden State Euros Motorsport Division
2014 Glacier Silver Z4 28i M Sport - See the build thread: http://e89.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=950367
Appreciate 0
      08-19-2014, 12:41 PM   #8
Hujan
Brigadier General
Hujan's Avatar
United_States
567
Rep
3,742
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: .

iTrader: (16)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
My rough understanding is oil starvation is more of an issue if you are using R comps. Maybe its ok if you are sticking to street tires?
I think R comps definitely make it easier to achieve the lateral G forces that would cause starvation, but as wmandra indicated, loss of oil pressure is possible with street tires. But I will not run R comps without a baffle. Bummer that you have to drop the front subframe to swap out the oil pan.
Appreciate 0
      08-19-2014, 02:17 PM   #9
nicknaz
Lieutenant General
nicknaz's Avatar
3183
Rep
10,509
Posts

Drives: C6Z
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hujan View Post
I think R comps definitely make it easier to achieve the lateral G forces that would cause starvation, but as wmandra indicated, loss of oil pressure is possible with street tires. But I will not run R comps without a baffle. Bummer that you have to drop the front subframe to swap out the oil pan.
Agreed, its not ideal stock but haven't seen many (any?) 35i or m3 failures from oil starvation at the track with street tires though

I wonder if adding baffles to a street tire car is sort of solving for a problem that isn't quite there.... i.e. tracking the car with stock oil pan, if the used oil analysis is fine, is there really an issue?

I get that is cost isn't an issue, then why not, but for a more "budget" enthusiast, should baffles be at the top of the spend list?
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2014, 09:42 AM   #10
Hujan
Brigadier General
Hujan's Avatar
United_States
567
Rep
3,742
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: .

iTrader: (16)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
Agreed, its not ideal stock but haven't seen many (any?) 35i or m3 failures from oil starvation at the track with street tires though

I wonder if adding baffles to a street tire car is sort of solving for a problem that isn't quite there.... i.e. tracking the car with stock oil pan, if the used oil analysis is fine, is there really an issue?

I get that is cost isn't an issue, then why not, but for a more "budget" enthusiast, should baffles be at the top of the spend list?
I don't think so, no. I should have added that oil starvation is a particular concern for the S65 engine because the clearances in the rod bearings are excessively tight from the factory. Lots of S65 engines going "pop" lately, all due to excessive wear on the rod bearings.
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2014, 08:30 PM   #11
nicknaz
Lieutenant General
nicknaz's Avatar
3183
Rep
10,509
Posts

Drives: C6Z
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hujan View Post
I don't think so, no. I should have added that oil starvation is a particular concern for the S65 engine because the clearances in the rod bearings are excessively tight from the factory. Lots of S65 engines going "pop" lately, all due to excessive wear on the rod bearings.
I guess every car has its Achilles heel.

I've been getting up to speed on the C6 Z06 lately, and even with the dry sump oil system there are still issues on the 2006 to 2008 cars, and there are issues with the exhaust valve guides from the factory that have cost engines there as well.

Seems like oiling is always going to be a key concern
Appreciate 0
      12-12-2014, 09:26 AM   #12
wmandra
Track Addict
wmandra's Avatar
96
Rep
242
Posts

Drives: 2010 328i, 2014 Z4
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NJ, USA

iTrader: (0)

Just a quick update on this... Had the car over at VAC to drop the oil pan and see what could be done for a baffle. Unfortunately the tolerances inside the pan are just too tight. The pan is essentially molded around the oil pump and has a small sump / recess in the bottom for the pickup. So it doesn't look like a baffle solution will be possible. New plan is to install an Accusump system into the car in the next few months with an electronic pressure control valve that will open in the 20-25 psi range (which is just below idle).
__________________
Driver, Ratchet Head Racing #93 BMW Z4
Club Organizer, Garden State Euros Motorsport Division
2014 Glacier Silver Z4 28i M Sport - See the build thread: http://e89.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=950367
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2016, 03:02 PM   #13
Mr.aicoco
Registered
Mr.aicoco's Avatar
Belgium
0
Rep
3
Posts

Drives: BMW F22 N20
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wmandra View Post
Just a quick update on this... Had the car over at VAC to drop the oil pan and see what could be done for a baffle. Unfortunately the tolerances inside the pan are just too tight. The pan is essentially molded around the oil pump and has a small sump / recess in the bottom for the pickup. So it doesn't look like a baffle solution will be possible. New plan is to install an Accusump system into the car in the next few months with an electronic pressure control valve that will open in the 20-25 psi range (which is just below idle).
Hi!

I was wondering if you had the accusump installed.

I own a 220i (I am from belgium) and have a BR performance remap.

Now, I had an oiling problem in my engine. New engine is getting installed as we speek. Now because I like to get the car on track a couple of days and I love do drift, I want to make some safety mods. Baffles aren't an option as you already know.

I mailed Canton Racing to ask them what product I need to prevent getting engine damage. I would like a system that injects extra oil when the pressure gets low. (But before its gets to low) This way damage can be prevented.

They asked me if I could give them oil pressure stats, so that they can give me the correct product.

1idle oil pressure.
2maximum oil pressure.
3oil pressure the car sees on track.

Now, because The car is not operational to drive at the moment, I was hoping you could give me those oil pressure stats. Because it's the same N20 engine and you seem to track the car a whole lot.

Hope you can help me! Thanks!

Regards, Aiko.
Appreciate 0
      05-09-2016, 03:54 PM   #14
lijiahua790
Enlisted Member
lijiahua790's Avatar
16
Rep
46
Posts

Drives: 2012 328i n20
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Irvine

iTrader: (0)

I am interested of getting Accusump too. My engine just blew when I was at Spring mountain motorsport ranch, and I was using R COMPOUND TIRES. Have you gotten it installed yet?
__________________
JB4, Evolutionracewerk IC, Evolutionracewerk CP, Evolutionracewek Catless downpipe, AEPX ARC-8, AG M510, APEX stud conversion, Remus Catback exhaust, P3cars gauge, Trinity Autosport.
(Exercise? I thought you said extra fries!)
Appreciate 0
      09-21-2017, 03:37 PM   #15
take1step
Private
Canada
99
Rep
96
Posts

Drives: M340ix 2020
Join Date: May 2017
Location: QC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wmandra View Post
Just a quick update on this... Had the car over at VAC to drop the oil pan and see what could be done for a baffle. Unfortunately the tolerances inside the pan are just too tight. The pan is essentially molded around the oil pump and has a small sump / recess in the bottom for the pickup. So it doesn't look like a baffle solution will be possible. New plan is to install an Accusump system into the car in the next few months with an electronic pressure control valve that will open in the 20-25 psi range (which is just below idle).
Also curious to know if he accusump oil system was ever installed.
Appreciate 0
      09-21-2017, 10:03 PM   #16
Vetracr
Private First Class
29
Rep
193
Posts

Drives: 2010 BMW Z4 3.0
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Palm Beach, FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wmandra View Post
Just a quick update on this... Had the car over at VAC to drop the oil pan and see what could be done for a baffle. Unfortunately the tolerances inside the pan are just too tight. The pan is essentially molded around the oil pump and has a small sump / recess in the bottom for the pickup. So it doesn't look like a baffle solution will be possible. New plan is to install an Accusump system into the car in the next few months with an electronic pressure control valve that will open in the 20-25 psi range (which is just below idle).
Quick note on accusumps. Ran one on my SCCA race Corvette. They are pressurized by air and are effected by oil temperature. Problem is when they activate during a race, the oil let into the pan is more than is pumped back into the accusump if controlled by a simple pressure valve. Hot oil is less dense than ambient temperature oil. I always had more oil in pan at end of race than I started with. Still a good safety item for oil starvation.

Question: It looks like you put your oil pressure gauge sender where the factory oil temp sender is mounted. Where did you put the factory oil temp sender?
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:43 AM.




zpost
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST