What Makes a Real M Car (E89is Discussion)?

[keepittrill]

Why not turbocharge a V6? Sorry, I know next to nothing about engines.

[jparnes1]

Originally Posted by BMWZ4RIDER

CAFE STANDARDS BE DAMMED. If I am going to drive a performance car, I am not going to ask about fuel economy. That's what the family hauler is for.
For me and the 30 gallons per hour, yes you read this right- 30 GPH, that my pig of a boat eats when running at a blistering 15 knots, this will always be my standard for what I consider my personal POOR fuel economy. I am getting a bargain from from the 19 MPG /250-280 miles per tank from the high performance, 300 HP 35i, lead footing around. Compare this to the 300 gallons my boat holds in which I can travel total of 130-150 miles total per tank.
Bring on the V8 M series ANY day.

We all feel the same as you about CAFE and sports cars. However, the choice is out of our hands, unfortunately. People say to me, "Isn't it expensive to drive that car?" And I say, "Yes, it's a high performance car". We're all willing to pony up for the joy of driving this car. But redesigns to boost MPG is something we have no control over.

[Asbjorn]

Originally Posted by keepittrill

Why not turbocharge a V6? Sorry, I know next to nothing about engines.

That is what most manufacturers would do to save space. And you will find that this is one of the reasons why they can't even beat a BMW diesel six at the engine of the year awards. Try and read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straigh...#Modern_trends

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by jparnes1

We all feel the same as you about CAFE and sports cars. However, the choice is out of our hands, unfortunately. People say to me, "Isn't it expensive to drive that car?" And I say, "Yes, it's a high performance car". We're all willing to pony up for the joy of driving this car. But redesigns to boost MPG is something we have no control over.

Less weight, same power (aka F80 M3... supposedly...) is something we can all get behind...

Our same Z4 with 300hp but 2500lb instead of 3500lb would be AMAZING.. more mpg, better handling, faster, etc etc.

Hopefully manufacturers will add lightness instead of remove power in the future.

[williakz]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Less weight, same power (aka F80 M3... supposedly...) is something we can all get behind...

Our same Z4 with 300hp but 2500lb instead of 3500lb would be AMAZING.. more mpg, better handling, faster, etc etc.

Hopefully manufacturers will add lightness instead of remove power in the future.

I was wondering when somebody would finally point out the need for BMW to remove that useless half-ton block of concrete in the Z4's trunk. It performs NO useful function I can see, takes up HUGE amounts of space (you all know how small the trunk is!), and would give us an immediate and lasting boost in fuel efficiency and vehicle handling. Take THAT, CAFE standards! Good on ya, Nick! Now, about those M cars...

[BMWZ4RIDER]

Absolutely agreed. The best advantage we can have for performance increase is to put the Z on a diet. I would love a (wishful thinking) 500 lb. diet for the Z. The front sub frame is aluminum. For the $60-$70K that these cars cost, make the frame and door skins all aluminum and make the hood, roof and trunk carbon fiber. That will save some pork and work towards more M or rather "Z" status.

[keepittrill]

Originally Posted by BMWZ4RIDER

Absolutely agreed. The best advantage we can have for performance increase is to put the Z on a diet. I would love a (wishful thinking) 500 lb. diet for the Z. The front sub frame is aluminum. For the $60-$70K that these cars cost, make the frame and door skins all aluminum and make the hood, roof and trunk carbon fiber. That will save some pork and work towards more M or rather "Z" status.

Only problem is, they'd market that like crazy and we'd be paying extra for that. "Omg we have carbon fiber on this car now, all we need now from you is 80K, your first born child and the tears of a unicorn." I also think they should give the 28i dual exhausts and quad exhausts to the 35i.

[williakz]

Originally Posted by BMWZ4RIDER

For the $60-$70K that these cars cost, make the frame and door skins all aluminum and make the hood, roof and trunk carbon fiber.

How come the engineers haven't figured this out already? Are they stupid, or mad at us for some reason, or being paid off by the oil companies? Why aren't they producing cheap supercars that sip gas and go like a bat of of hell? Why can't we have WHAT WE WANT? Waaa...

[nicknaz]

BTW, I have noticed so many E92 M3 that have the STEEL ROOF with sunroof instead of the carbon fiber roof (which is no charge!)

I think that right there is the reason M cars have so much weight, features etc. customers want it that way...

The reason we don't have hardcore 3000 lb fixed roof, V8 2 seater M cars is that people probably won't buy them.

FANS can moan about the loss of purity etc, but CUSTOMERS want to feel sporty and discuss sporty but not be bothered with the realities of having a full-on track weapon.

[teagueAMX]

Originally Posted by keepittrill

Why not turbocharge a V6? Sorry, I know next to nothing about engines.

It's perfectly Ok to turbo charge a 6 cylinder engine regardless of the configuration - inline, "V" or flat "boxer".

As you're aware the N54 is an inline 6 which is a really great engine. But BMW also makes a truly unique turbo charged v8.

Performance all comes down to one simple formula: engine power vs vehicle weight. In practice, lightweight cars tend to feel sporty.

A "V" engine has some advantages and disadvantages, and likewise with the inline engine. Two advantages of a V configuration is a lighter, more compact package (height and length) and the opposition of the cylinder banks helps build power fast. The "V" has internal balance issues that are not present with an inline configuration. The inline engine tends to be a little bit taller hence the reason many inlines are "slanted" (ironically like half a "V" engine), but they are great engine for building torque.

One point of resistance performance enthusiasts have is changing from a naturally aspirated air induction system to a forced induction (turbo charged). Turbos generate power based on exhaust pressure turning a spiral fan. The exhaust spiral fan is connected to a similar fan for the air intake that "pushes" air into the engine. This arrangement can result in small amount of "turbo lag" due to the second it takes for the engine to speed up and produce more exhaust pressure. This problem has largely been taken care due to smaller turbo fan size (less rotating mass ) and/or multiple turbos, but it's hard to beat the instantaneous throttle response of naturally aspirated engine. This is why fans love the ///M3 and ///M Z4 Coupe engines, and many think of those cars as "true" ///M cars. A Side Note: Part of Ferrari's unique naturally aspirated V8 sound is partly attributed to its 180 degree crankshaft - basically it functions like two inline 4 cylinder engines configured in a "V" formation.

Regardless, turbos are the future and are very easy to tune for high performance due to the fact the turbo's exhaust waste gate (to prevent over pressure) is controlled by the car's computer. Re-tune the computer and you can add instant low end torque and high end horsepower due to the increased cylinder pressure, unlike a naturally aspirated engine.

Hope this answers your question - FWIW.

Cheers

[v3.2mc]

it may just come down to the location for either partial or complete assembly in Garching (BMW M GmbH). I say "partial" due to the final assembly of the e70/1 ///M models being Spartanburg. to my knowledge, the e89 chassis has not been taken to Garching, with the exceptions being the gt3 and gte.

FWIW... the IS is faster than my e86 ///M.

awesome job at staying civil here! zpost FTW!

[keepittrill]

Originally Posted by teagueAMX

It's perfectly Ok to turbo charge a 6 cylinder engine regardless of the configuration - inline or "V".

As you're aware the N54 is an inline 6 which is a really great engine. But BMW also make a truly unique turbo charged v8.

Performance all comes down to one simple formula: engine horsepower vs vehicle weight. In practice, lightweight cars tend to feel sporty.

A "V" engine has some advantages and disadvantages, and likewise with the inline engine. Two advantages of a V configuration is a lighter, more compact package (height and length) and the opposition of the cylinder banks helps build power fast. The "V" has internal balance issues that are not present with an inline configuration. The inline engine tends to be a little bit taller hence the reason many inlines are "slanted" (ironically like half a "V" engine), but they are great engine for building torque.

One point of resistance performance enthusiasts have is changing from a naturally aspirated air induction system to a forced induction (turbo charged). Turbos generate power based on exhaust pressure turning a spiral fan. The exhaust spiral fan is connected to a similar fan for the air intake that "pushes" air into the engine. This arrangement can result in small amount of "turbo lag" due to the second it takes for the engine to speed up and produce more exhaust pressure. This problem has largely been taken care due to smaller turbo fan size (less rotating mass ) and/or multiple turbos, but it's hard to beat the instantaneous throttle response of naturally aspirated engine. This is why fans love the ///M3 and ///M Z4 Coupe engines, and many think of those cars as "true" ///M cars. A Side Note: Part of Ferrari's unique naturally aspirated V8 sound is partly attributed to its 180 degree crankshaft - basically it functions like two inline 4 cylinder engines configured in a "V" formation.

Regardless, turbos are the future and are very easy to tune for high performance due to the fact the turbo's exhaust waste gate (to prevent over pressure) is controlled by the car's computer. Re-tune the computer and you can add instant horsepower (increased cylinder pressure), unlike a naturally aspirated engine.

Hope this answers your question - FWIW.

Cheers

Extremely informative post. Thank you!

[itf joegun]

I currently own a E92 M3 and will sell it in July for a new Z4 35is.

I agree absolutely to that post from jparnes1, saying that you cannot drive a M3 to it's limits in normal traffic. Because of the low torque at lower RPM's in the M I got the feelig from my test drives that the Z435is is faster as a daily driver (0-150 kph, country road speeds) than the M3. Up to 200 kph I wouldn't think that the M3 is faster. Reason is because you never drive with the M in the morning in the area of 6000+ rpms. This is to stressfull (if you ask me, but perhaps I am getting old) and makes also no sense if the car is cold. Because of the high torque of the 35is engine, this is not an issue. You do not need to push that hard to have the power available.

But what "makes" the difference of this both cars and an M to a real M-car: I think the most difference is the simple orientation of M-cars towards motorsports and racing. With an M you can drive to the Ring on the weekend, having fun the whole day and than drive back and use it as a daily driver the week after. M cars are used to be pushed hard. This is not the case for a 35is for example. It will get much easier to it's limits and you cannot push that hard like with a "real" M.

So you cannot bring it to the formula "add more power, hughe breaks and a good suspension". It is a part of it but in the end an M car get's the guarantee from BMW that it can be pushed hard without taking any harm. So all components are developed into that direction...the overall package makes the music, not just one single component.

[Alext]

An M car to me is centred around its engine.

Apart from the uprated suspension components etc a BESPOKE ENGINE is what does it for me. The previous 2 renditions of M3 engines and the last M5 V10 are perfect examples.

The new M3 seems to make do with a N55 with an extra turbo bolted on and some reinforcement.

AMG got it right - their engines are impressive in all aspects.

[itf joegun]

Originally Posted by Alext

An M car to me is centred around its engine.

Apart from the uprated suspension components etc a BESPOKE ENGINE is what does it for me. The previous 2 renditions of M3 engines and the last M5 V10 are perfect examples.

The new M3 seems to make do with a N55 with an extra turbo bolted on and some reinforcement.

AMG got it right - their engines are impressive in all aspects.

But bringing it down to the engine raises one question: Why is the 1M then a M-car and a 35is is not? They share so many identical parts and have the same power output...

[Hoa]

Originally Posted by itf joegun

But bringing it down to the engine raises one question: Why is the 1M then a M-car and a 35is is not? They share so many identical parts and have the same power output...

because if they made a real M engine for the 1M, it would outperform the M4. The Z3M and Z4M always have an M3 engine, suspension & brakes. if they make one, it would need to have those parts from the M3. If they make one, it would probably outperform the M3 so it makes the M3 looks bad

[Alext]

That's why I never bought into the whole 1M thing. They basically gave the brilliantly flexible N54 a tune and upgraded the car's handling & replaced the RFT's. Add a few new body panels and a badge and voila! a new M car. The answer is: Money. IT was much less expensive for BMW to do this, esp for a low volume production run than to make a bespoke engine etc.

The 35is which I own is not a true M car because it lacks the above for starters (except the engine). Although it is a very capable vehicle in its own right, it will never set lap records without some modifications. I wished they would put the S65 V8 into the e89 Z4. IF Benz can do it with their latest SLK AMG then why not BMW?

IT just goes to show that you can make one of these BMWs as fast as an M car very simply with a tune, tires and some suspension work. Brakes too. All done in a day with aftermarket parts readily available online.

True M cars are worked on by M Division from the ground up.

AMG, for example, is a separate division that is very focused on the AMG brand - that is why I am very interested at present with AMG - esp. their Black Series range. The C63 Black Series is a marvellous example of what AMG is capable of. Unfortunately they have sold in my country with nil appearing on the used car market that I've seen.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Alext

That's why I never bought into the whole 1M thing. They basically gave the brilliantly flexible N54 a tune and upgraded the car's handling & replaced the RFT's. Add a few new body panels and a badge and voila! a new M car.

"upgraded the handling" in this case is swapping in M3 suspension, wheels, LSD and widebody fenders to accommodate it all

There is also the significantly increased cooling equipment (i believe they even used the DCT transmission case for the 1M manual transmission because it had additional cooling)

it would be hugely $$$ for a 135 owner to try and DIY these mods, and even if the car is "parts bin" it is apparently as fast as E92 M3 DCT around hockenheim....

EDIT: it would have been awesome if BMW put on the M performance brakes, more cooling parts, non RFT with differently calibrated suspension and put out E89 Z4M with the N54T motor instead of 35is

[Putzo]

Originally Posted by williakz

Yeah, it's the Cadillac of brands...

Re: the rest of the thread, very interesting and informative. Well done folks.