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      04-23-2013, 03:12 PM   #1
mbetoni
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What Makes a Real M Car (E89is Discussion)?

I realize this is somewhat philosophical, so please take it as that. Also, as a disclaimer, this is not meant to disparage, debase or in any way discredit the vaunted E85/6 M Roadster and Coupe. I have as much respect for those cars as the next guy, especially being an 8-year E85 owner.

That being said, I've heard it said again and again that the IS is not a 'real' M car. It begs the question, what is a real M car then?

Does a real M car have M badges?
If so, the IS sure as hell has plenty of them. They're not on the outside, but they may as well be.

Does a real M car have a clutch?
We all know the answer to that one.

Does a real M car have a hand-built engine?
Not anymore.

Is a real M car naturally aspirated?
Not for long. The next M3 and M4 are all but guaranteed to be a turbo cars. Additionally, even Porsche, the last bastion of NA, has announced that the next Boxster/Cayman will be turbo, and turbo 4s at that!

Does a real M car have hydraulic steering?
All the current M cars do, however, they're all electronically assisted. Having driven the current M3 and the IS, the differences between hydraulic and electric are becoming less and less relevant. Expect the next M3 & M4 to use a version of electric as well, then other M cars.

Does a real M car have a superior suspension?
Typically, it does. However, the magnetically-controlled suspension in the IS is the most advanced suspension ever placed in a BMW roadster, certainly more advanced than the E85/6's borrowed E46 M3 suspension.

Is a real M car the most badass version of a particular model you can buy?
Sure is, and it makes you evaluate the following: Previously, the Z4 was offered in three performance trims (2006-2008, US): 3.0i, 3.0si, M. Currently, the Z4 is offered in three trims: 428i, 435i, 435is. Previously, the Z4M used a borrowed S54 straight six good for 300HP and a 6-speed manual. Currently, the IS uses a turbo N54 good for 335HP and with DCT delivers 0-60 in 4.8 seconds (Ferrari territory, FWIW). Also worth mentioning, the S54's 300HP was the most that could be wrought out of that block without adding a blower; in other words, it was the pinnacle of that platform. The N54 is easily capable of much more than it's stock 335HP, with nothing more than remapping software.

Is an M car more programmable?
Man, the E30 guys would have a field day with this question. They don't even think the E46 is a real M-car, since the S54 wasn't hand built. The current M3 is more programmable (M Dynamic Mode, etc) than the IS.

All things considered, does it seem like the IS isn't an M car in name only, or is there something else? Would adding an "M" button on the steering wheel (ala the M3) be enough? Would it take cramming the M3's V8 into the Z4's engine bay (not sure it'd even fit)? More than that?

Love to hear thoughts. Also, yes, this is how I'm spending my time while I wait for my new IS (and it rains hedgehogs and aardvarks here in Chicago. I shoulda ordered an Ark instead!).
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      04-23-2013, 03:19 PM   #2
gman36
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A e89 is not an M car.

LSD... completely revised suspension geometry... Those aid to the M in the M car.
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      04-23-2013, 03:30 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gman36 View Post
A e89 is not an M car.

LSD... completely revised suspension geometry... Those aid to the M in the M car.
So, adding a mechanical LSD and revising the suspension geometry would be enough to add an M badge to the outside? Doesn't seem like much, does it?

Maybe a better way of saying it would be, if there was an E89 Z4M, what would the list of things it would have be (vs the IS), and, equally important, how much would it cost? At $70k (decently optioned), the IS is already not an inexpensive car.
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      04-23-2013, 03:38 PM   #4
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Yeah, an optioned IS is already pushing into M3 territory price-wise, an E89 M version would be pushing into M5 territory. I feel like for that price, people would rather shell out the money for an M5 or a slightly used M6. Maybe even the gran coupe. (650)
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      04-23-2013, 03:53 PM   #5
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I dunno, M to me used to mean something, the pinnacle of sportiness for the BMW badge, now it's just another diluted 'brand' when you have X6s being able to have a M model. That's just crazy imho.
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      04-23-2013, 03:54 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility
I dunno, M to me used to mean something, the pinnacle of sportiness for the BMW badge, now it's just another diluted 'brand' when you have X6s being able to have a M model. That's just crazy imho.
I feel you. With the whole, X6 M, X5 M, 1 M coupe, it seems like the M badge is turning into something they slap on cars that are more powerful than their base models. It's losing its exclusivity.
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      04-23-2013, 04:00 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepittrill View Post
I feel you. With the whole, X6 M, X5 M, 1 M coupe, it seems like the M badge is turning into something they slap on cars that are more powerful than their base models. It's losing its exclusivity.
Yup, X5 also. Don't mind the 1M though, it's good since ppl compare it to the old M3.

Off topic, nice to see someone use the its/it's properly.
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      04-23-2013, 04:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
Yup, X5 also. Don't mind the 1M though, it's good since ppl compare it to the old M3.
See? This quickly becomes a philosophical discussion. I drove the 1M Coupe, at speed/hard, back-to-back against the M3 at M School. I can tell you, though it may be akin to an old E36 M3, the 1M feels downright cheap compared to an M3. Cheap, and frankly, a bit dangerous. The current M3 defies a driving man's logic - no car that heavy, that big should be able to do what it can do.

So, does that mean that no new M car is a true M car? Where do you draw the line, and when does an M car stop being an engineering decision and become a marketing decision? Further, does a marketing decision that turns a car into an M car make it not a real M car? Since the IS can easily outperform most of the previous M cars, what does that make it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepittrill View Post
Yeah, an optioned IS is already pushing into M3 territory price-wise
A well optioned IS is actually MORE money than a base M3.
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      04-23-2013, 04:29 PM   #9
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The idea that the comparison is made between current and soon-to-be-current M models, and not what has traditionally been an M is key. BMW seems intent on watering down what the M stands for at a heroic rate.

I wish the IS was an M, its certainly priced as one. The suspension is / feels like the weak link on it though. That said, boy is it fun.
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      04-23-2013, 04:44 PM   #10
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On top of the IS, the E89 Z4M would need:
LSD,
Hydraulic steering - current system is not even close to being as accurate as it should be in my opinion,
Better brakes - I was watching an episode of Fifthgear a couple of weeks ago where the queen of the ring, Sabine, was comparing the new 911 CS vs M6 and she quoted " I've yet to drive an M car with proper brakes" says it all.
Also, remap up to at least 370bhp to 'sway' the prospective cayman and SLK AMG customers,
The signature Quad Exhaust,
Lose the Audi style silver mirrors and put some 'proper' styled mirrors, offer it in 6spd manual or DCT.. That is all..
Sorry if I've offended anyone with an IS! It's not intentional.
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      04-23-2013, 05:10 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbetoni View Post
See? This quickly becomes a philosophical discussion. I drove the 1M Coupe, at speed/hard, back-to-back against the M3 at M School. I can tell you, though it may be akin to an old E36 M3, the 1M feels downright cheap compared to an M3. Cheap, and frankly, a bit dangerous. The current M3 defies a driving man's logic - no car that heavy, that big should be able to do what it can do.

So, does that mean that no new M car is a true M car? Where do you draw the line, and when does an M car stop being an engineering decision and become a marketing decision? Further, does a marketing decision that turns a car into an M car make it not a real M car? Since the IS can easily outperform most of the previous M cars, what does that make it?
I hear ya. To me, M should be about sportscars, so no SUVs (or what BMW calls 'SAVs'). I personally don't mind the 1M being cheap (it's the entry trim, after all). As to dangerous, could some interpret as 'raw'? I have no idea, never driven that car. I don't have a prb if it's not truly dangerous but more raw. I just don't like the idea of having heavy cars compensated w/ over-engineering & pwr and slapping the M on them.
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      04-23-2013, 05:31 PM   #12
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Porsche and Audi (to me) have managed to keep great model separation between their cars, but it seems like with options, all of the BMW series' are bleeding into each other. I'm sitting at the dealer right now looking at a 335i that's pushing 60K. I'm also no expert on car pricing either . :P But they're BMW, they can do what they want. (Also a B7 Alpina here, took a tour and that thing puts the most well optioned CL class to shame.)
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      04-23-2013, 05:57 PM   #13
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E89 to M
Needs a more robust cooling system
Better brakes
More precise steering
A little better balance
Ditch the run flats
That being said it's not that far off and I love it the way it is except for the run flats. It could be just a little better and it would be perfect!
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      04-23-2013, 06:05 PM   #14
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Has anyone here had a 35is and an F10 or E92? What do you think the difference is, from a "behind the wheel" perspective?
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      04-23-2013, 06:48 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
As to dangerous, could some interpret as 'raw'?
Raw is by all accounts a much better definition, admittedly, 'dangerous' probably not my best choice of word considering what I was trying to convey.

It's raw, and in the face of the current M3, not very composed (not saying thats good or bad, just stating how it behaves). You actually feel like if you're not careful, the car will bite back. In the M3, the car stays composed in the most (seemingly) unlikely ways.
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      04-23-2013, 06:53 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepittrill View Post
Has anyone here had a 35is and an F10 or E92? What do you think the difference is, from a "behind the wheel" perspective?
I've driven both, 1 at M school (E92) and the IS here. It's not apples to apples, since they're fundamentally different types of cars (roadster vs. coupe/sedan). However, there are definite similarities, especially in the transmission behavior and certainly in the fun factor.

That being said, the IS is not powered by a NA V8, and you feel that V8 grunt in the M3. It also brakes in the most unreal way, and works hard not to kill you even when you've tried your best to do it to yourself.
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      04-23-2013, 07:37 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepittrill View Post
Has anyone here had a 35is and an F10 or E92? What do you think the difference is, from a "behind the wheel" perspective?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbetoni
I've driven both, 1 at M school (E92) and the IS here. It's not apples to apples, since they're fundamentally different types of cars (roadster vs. coupe/sedan). However, there are definite similarities, especially in the transmission behavior and certainly in the fun factor.

That being said, the IS is not powered by a NA V8, and you feel that V8 grunt in the M3. It also brakes in the most unreal way, and works hard not to kill you even when you've tried your best to do it to yourself.
If you were to turn the IS into an "M badge worthy" car, what would you change about it?
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      04-23-2013, 08:51 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepittrill View Post
If you were to turn the IS into an "M badge worthy" car, what would you change about it?
No clue. Don't own it (yet!)
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      04-23-2013, 09:52 PM   #19
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since in the E85 series there was an IS and a ///M. I suspect that the E89 IS would not = ///M.

simply put from a branding stand point. when BMW decides to place an ///M on the back deck then it will be one. I am not going to add to the diluted branding convo unless you read between the lines.
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      04-23-2013, 09:52 PM   #20
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since in the E85 series there was an IS and a ///M. I suspect that the E89 IS would not = ///M.

simply put from a branding stand point. when BMW decides to place an ///M on the back deck then it will be one. I am not going to add to the diluted branding convo unless you read between the lines.
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      04-23-2013, 10:42 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rking117 View Post
since in the E85 series there was an IS and a ///M. I suspect that the E89 IS would not = ///M.

simply put from a branding stand point. when BMW decides to place an ///M on the back deck then it will be one. I am not going to add to the diluted branding convo unless you read between the lines.
There was a "si", but no "is".

Pretty sure they make a game of it...
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      04-24-2013, 01:38 AM   #22
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Last time I checked the latest M3 / 1M / x5M /x6m are faster in all aspects than the old school favorites like E30 M3 and E36 M3.

M cars are getting faster and easier to exploit. What's the problem?

Definition of an M car (or any sports car) for me is pretty simple.. can I drive it from the dealer to a track and lap to my heart's content at my max pace without overheating any part of it, and have fun doing it. if yes and yes good to go / who cares about the badge

This reminds me of dual clutch vs. traditional manual, water cooled vs. air cooled 911, cayenne is not a real porsche.. blah blah.. irrelevant discussion IMHO. If it makes the machine go around a circuit faster and more reliably, sign me up

EDIT: E89 key deficiencies for me are cooling system and brakes. very insufficient, suspension compliance. too stiff / hard to get power down on bumpy corner exit (maybe RFT) and tire choice.. not enough grip.
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